EisElle

thank you for correcting me in particular about the intricacy part (tho I think maybe they could choose another word instead of "intricate"? true, they do clarify the meaning below, but still...) well, the core doesn't change much but good to be as accurate as possible ETA: that isn't even the only muddled thing in that rulebook ETA 2: and I'm going to leave my beloved 3A rank soon. What's next?

Sorry, another longish and repetitive post (it looks like I'm eager to upgrade my rank on the planet ) I wonder if they just reprimand judges that don't give scores in line with the others or if they actually bother to go and revise the scores checking their rulebook too. Maybe the outliers were the only ones doing their job properly. I wouldn't be surpised tbh Rules are there for all skaters to have the same chance when they skate, but the application can be so dodgy... and it's not only because of subjectivity. Some things are more objective than others, subjectivity is becaming a pretty lame excuse for the current scoring mess. Why do ISU even bother to have a rulebook (and making it available to the public) if they aren't going to apply the rules (driving fans crazy)? Just cancel the CoP and go back to the fudging 6.0, so we can all resign ourselves. Oh wait, that's probably what they're planning to do, break the system so everyone will beg for them to go back to the good old times. I don't know if it's because I've only known skating under the current system (and it's already too wild for my tastes), but I really really really can't stand the 6.0. BTW even when 6.0 was there, the Components weren't only "artistry", so where the hell does that misconception come from? Yes, and back then Yuzuru was far far far "worse" than now (as we know from Brian's persistence on working on Yuzuru's basics when he moved to Toronto). That Yuzuru can be superfast using few crossovers certainly shows that he has "mastered" the figure skating tools. Kurt Browning said once (maybe GPF 2014?) that he couldn't understand how Yuzuru gained so much speed and he was in awe. That one cannot "see" where speed comes from doesn't change that that speed is real and tangible. Actually that's way more impressive than seeing a skater doing crossovers all the time. Doing less crossover and still being fast means SS are better and there is more time to do more difficult transitions. Certainly I wouldn't ever think that a skater that is fast while doing few crossovers has worse SS than one that shows off how high quality the crossovers are over and over again. Speed has to came from somewhere and (unless we found out some skaters have some mutant power) it must come from the way their muscles work, from the timing of their movements and from how their blades interact with the ice. Looking at the quality of crossovers is one way to partially deduce the skaters' skill. Looking at the consequences of their skill (e.g. varied use of power, speed and acceleration. good flow despite intricate steps...) is another. (I've said this already) if we really want ot be strict and analyze the rulebook word for word to see if crossovers are to be evalued in both SS and TR, in TR only "intricate footwork" should be evalued. Crossover aren't just "movements", they are "footwork" but they're not "intricate", so they shouldn't fall under TR per se. It makes sense to "count" them for this simple reason: if you have lots of crossover, then there cannot be lots of intricate footwork, variety and difficulty because there is literally not much spare time in the program to execute everything. Hence the quality of crossover shouldn't really matter in TR score, imo, but the quantity should. While for SS both quantity and quality matter. Again, if there is huge speed with only few basic steps, and everything else is on par (rythmic knee action, flow and so on) than the skater is displaying better skating skills, as a matter of fact. The upper body movements executed while feet are busy doing crossovers do count for the TR mark, but again, doing arm movements while doing easy steps is easier than doing them while you have to focus also on what the hell your feet are doing, because intricate footwork is more tiring per se, and it challenges more the skater's equilibrium and focus etc etc, so beautiful movements in a program with lots of crossovers shouldn't be awarded as much as beautiful movements on intricate footwork. Tbh I see GPF 2016 protocols of LGC with only a bad landing on a 4Lo and I see PCS 47.35 (SS 9.39 and TR 9.25), then I see Shoma's SP protocol from France (PCS 46.01, 9.29 SS and 9.04 TR, when he obviously wasn't skating at his best) and I want to burn the judges at the stake cry. @fireovertheice thank you for your hard work. I'll take my time with your table and post again later btw can I suggest to also add the SS and TR scores, given how more closely related those two components are to the listed content? (I know usually pcs are all in the same range, but I think it would still be more accurate )

The question about crossovers is that they are basics steps and no choreo, as gorgeous as it can be, can change that. So sure, their quality and fitting the music can be awarded, but still they shouldn't be awarded as if they were the peak of a skater's skill. They are supposed to be part of the skating foundations, but how can you distinguish between good and outstanding if you don't consider the harder stuff too? And a good choreographer could certainly find a way to fit something else just as well in the choreo! Maybe Med has so many harder steps and turns that make her program look too laboured (tho I think she's getting better and better) and judges can evalue both quality and how well they fit the music, but those steps and turns still meet the variety and difficulty in the TR guidelines. And you could bet that, if they change the rule and suddenly doing quality crossovers becames the requirement for high TR, Zhenya will ditch all those draining turns and steps and fill her program with lots of crossovers of the highest quality. Fact is, Med is still playing by the rules. Others don't but still get the candies. And TR aren't as subjective as, say, IN and PE. That's why Med's team focuses on transitions, they know their skater can "objectively" rack up points there. They studied the rulebook. Sadly, we can't say the same about some commies and some judges. And sadly it can also happen that skaters enrich their program with transitions but judges suffer from selective amnesia when they score them Re: Carolina. She has gorgeous SS but she should lose something in TR score. About the other components...I do believe mistake don't necessarily detract from performance and most important interpretation, but that Caro could have a PB in pcs for a flawed performance when in the past she had outstanding skates that earned less (the last one only a couple of weeks before!) leaves A LOT of doubts...

I still disagree, because even if a judge can't count each step and all, he can still have a fair idea of what's going on in a skate (hell, I can have one, and I'm being more than a casual fan only from january, I really don't see why far more experienced professionals can't have at least a general idea, more so if they get to watch the practices too and can see some skaters side by side). And if they fail to have an idea of what's going on, then maybe they should just train more (or humbly say that they're not the right guys for the job). Figure skating is still "skating", so I'd think what happens with the skater's feet still should count more than what the hell his/her upper body does. Of course if someone can be great at everything it's better, but a skater should be good at skating first, then at doing all the rest, at least as long as more technical components like SS and TR are concerned. (tbh I wouldn't be against bringing them into the TES score, GOE are already assessing quality of elements anyway, so even things like "continuity of movement" could fit there) And if the aim of giving high marks is rewarding mastery then no, I'm sorry, doing easy things, even if wonderfully, isn't mastery. Because this is still a sport and it is still skating, so what one does with the skates should be the most important thing. I could be ok with some skaters' SS and TR scores by themselves, what I'm not ok with is what others do and get in comparison.

tbh I'd absolutely use Hope&Legacy as benchmark for the "continuity of movements", because it has all the flow in the world while having both complexity and difficulty. If you use difficult and varied connecting movements and still get that continuity, you should always be rewarded more than when same continuity happens by doing easier stuff, because it shows a whole different level of "mastery". I see a lot of people have expressed very sensible and insightful opinions, but I'm going to say my piece anyway. (So the effort of typing it won't be in vain) Jackie does make some interesting points (or rather, he says was it's been said for a while now about the need to score each component on its own), but he loses me when he insists on the high quality cross-over that need to be rewarded. imo PCS only make sense in comparison to how different skaters are scored, and should reflect both what they do and how, so the point about TR in particular is how much you can reward basics steps compared to more difficult ones. If we want to really nitpick (and Jackie is really nitpicking by calling crossovers as "transitions" just because they are "movements" and happen between jumps), I'd point out that crossovers fall under the footwork category and for TR it's expressly said "INTRICATE footwork" counts, so crossovers should be automatically ruled out. (I'm glad more knowledgeble people said the same) But all right, let's concede cross overs are transitions if we call "transition" whatever happens betweens jumps and steps (which, being really accurate, the IJS doesn't). It's not like a skater can just fly or teleport himself from jump to jump anyway, he's gotta do some kind of skating in the in between. The point is which skating he does and its quality. BOTH things are to be considered. OK, high quality crossovers should grant higher TR mark than poorly executed ones. Purposeful HQ ones even more so. But then what about the "intricate footwork" and the "variety" and "difficulty"? Should we give the same score for HQ crossovers and for high quality or even medium quality more difficult/varied movements? NO.WAY.IN.HELL. Because crossovers are basic steps, and that a skater can do them with the highest quality doesn't make them any more difficult than that. And this is just pure mechanics of figure skating, really. So you can have the most beautiful and purposeful crossovers in the world, but you have to prove that you can do more than that to get high TR. And (now straying into SS) you can have amazing speed, but if you only get it and keep it relying on a lot of crossovers you're merely applying the basics. You aren't doing anything outstanding, just something that is both ordinary and expected. Good for you, you're fast! It's like saying that if I put my high heels on I get taller. Cool but totally expected. Instead being able to gain and keep speed with the minimum number of crossovers and two footed skating means that you can skate more efficiently and with much better control, and that alone should get a higher reward. It means your whole body has learned how to maximize the result of every single movement. Now, that is what's called mastery. All right, from now on instead of saying "X skater has very few transitions" we're going to detail and say "X has very few difficult/varied transitions". Stil it doesn't mean "hey, those basic steps are so gorgeous and beautiful, why should X bother to do anything different? He's a master at what he does anyway". Well, X should bother because he/she would be missing the whole difficult and varied part. So, all in all, it doesn't change that, according to the IJS, X shouldn't get high TR marks.

What a heart-warming read Thank you @Fay for bringing here the article, and thank you to the author so many beautiful memories from COR

I predicted Kaetlyn for gold because I trust judges and their PCS (judges I'm rooting for you! Aren't you happy? Or maybe it's my evil secret plan to jinx the whole panel ). Of course I hope Kaetlyn can have two clean skates and deserve all her scores (it would be interesing to see how close to Evgenia's scores she can get). But I'd forgive Mai if she screws up my prediction by running away with gold Predicting silver and bronze for pairs and ID was harder than I though. And bronze for men too. As for gold and silver, Shoma is pretty un-jinxable (is that even a word?) and I've already jinxed Javi once, so... @Joey could we have the answers to the extra questions, too? Because most of the time I forget what they were about and I'd like to know the answers (and I've missed those about nhk, I'm curious ) If I've missed them in your previous posts please ignore me and my dumbness

barging in to say that I've watched the interview and read the translation (feeling bad for being so late), and I was so relieved that I've actually shed a few tears. Of course Yuzuru looks somber but it's ok (better that than those heartbreaking smiles in Boston). What's happened to him was likely an athlete's worst nightmare (ok, I'm being a bit melodramatic here. Of curse there can be much worse things, but this one was still pretty bad): coming into a competition well conditioned, physically and mentally prepared, with everyone expecting him to win by a landslide and then s**t happens and screws up all his careful planning for the season. How awful it must have been for him (and how angry at himself he must have felt and still feeling), but I know he'll get stronger. I hope he won't rush and he will take care of himself. So glad Yuzuru has at least a chance to be ready for Nats (though more s**t can always happen. Praying hard for him, may he have a healthy body, a steady mind and a strong heart) I see talks about beard and moustache and Yuzu's english but I have no idea of what's going on. I'll go and catch up with the thread now

Actually @Xen iirc the british Esp. during SC were saying Shoma had some problem with his ankles (I read about that, not actually listened to them). I don't know if it has been confirmed though. Maybe this would explain both the layout downgrade and the slowness even in his stsq. I haven't checked in the jpn thread tho. the thing is, everything can change so suddenly (And then there is just sheer bad luck. Like getting a fever. Darn)

yes, this gp there have already been a lot of WD (last one ) and apparently a lot of ankles/knees problems, plus stomach illness, pneumonia and other accidents. I haven't followed GP the previous years, is it common to have so many WD? Maybe people are being extra careful given there are Olys at stake? Or this GP is just cursed. Or I'm cursing it by following it tbw (should I go back to a sane no-FS world? Someone can tell me how?) Also, maybe I jinx more when I don't make any prediction at all... (I swear, this week I was just busy/distracted, not really worrying about jinxing you-know-who, tho I've jinxed both Patrick and Javi. Shoma being immune). I don't think I can do much more damage, so I'm gonna predict all the rest of GP. (zuzu your fiery samurai face is both reassuring and heartbreaking to look at)

Mm it's always hard for me to pick only one option (aside for male skaters for me that one is a very easy choice) I've picked Mai because I just love her smooth smooth gliding, but as for now I'm liking Wakaba's programs a bit more, she's really shining. I've also started liking Evgenia. I wasn't a fan of her skating last year but she's growing on me. And there are a lot of other skaters and programs I like (tho maybe my absolute darling is a junior)

totally at the moment bringing this from COC ladies' because I'm going to state my opinion on backloading in general and wheter it should be punished in CO (composition). I know I'm probably going to sound moralistic tbh, even if I know it's an harmless joke, and a funny one, I'm also a bit uncomfortable about the implications of those words because it's like admitting that people watch a program only for the jumps, so if they miss the part without jumps they're not really missing anything worthy or interesting. It's true jumps usually are highlighs, expecially for more casual viewers (and because they are the elements worth more scoring-wise) but following this reasoning I could go and grab popcorn as soon as in other programs all the jumps end, or go back reading this forum during step sequences. (Guilty. But I've done the same even during jumps if I felt bored, sorry. tbh in some programs everything outside of jumps is more exciting than jumps) And then there is ice dance, should I go and grab popcorn unless they're doing lifts and twizzles? About Alina in particular, since the comment was about her program: she isn't even my favourite female skater, I'd rather watch Mai for my personal enjoyment, but it's not like Alina is just doing 10000 crossover in the first half! And the commentators recognize that themselves. I find more balanced Tracy's commentary (she says she doesn't like the backloading, but the way she says that is...way better). It's true, Alina's FS gets more exciting in the second half. But the music itself has a crescendo, so I stand by my idea that it would be wrong to just call the program unbalanced and penalize Alina in CO, as long as Alina and her choreo make it work (now, if she actually succeeds in that might be debatable, but the program shouldn't be criticized tout court). Sure, one could say the "purpose" of that composition is to garner as many points as possible, but they didn't pick a random music, they chose a piece that could suit that purpose and choreographed it accordingly. Also, for CO there is no "even distribution of all elements" requirement. Ice coverage and use of space are mentioned, no whatsoever reference to time distribution, only matching to the musical phrasing is to be evalued. As long as that specific rule doesn't change, stating clearly that backloaded programs are to be considered poor composition, it still one's personal opinion if backloading deserves lower scores. Unlike some other very specific criteria for, say, SS and TR, that are so often conveniently overlooked. I find that more outrageous than not giving a program lower CO for something that isn't even mentioned in the rulebook (even distribution of jumps). Ironically, per the current rule Alina's program could instead deserve higher CO marks for originality, because there are only a few fully backloaded programs across all disciplines, senior and junior. IMO the backloading "problem" will solve itself with technical progress, when ladies will start making harder jumps and combos (see Trusova's 4S. She puts as the start of her free, though I'd bet she could do a fully backloaded program with only triples and doubles). I think that men might go for the full backloading route soon, too (easier for the SP at the moment) until the next technical outbreak. It's becaming more and more important to have clean skates, as it's already almost mandatory for ladies, and there is a ceiling to the BV you can have with new quads. To have some kind of BV cushion skaters will backload more and more (and it's already happening, since everyone's finally realized that Yuzuru wasn't backloading all his combos and axels just 'cause he could, but to rack up points too). Now, if we want to talk about "balance": it's a FACT that, for example, in SEIMEI the second half jumps are tightly packed, unlike in H&L. Should we also give Yuzu lower CO because of that? The program IS less "balanced" than H&L, time-wise. But that layout makes sense with SEIMEI music, so why should I consider more "unbalanced" that program, as long as everything fits the music? For me, jump after jump there is a gripping crescendo that explodes in the choreo sequence, and the choreo sequence is awesome as it is (and as I fan I can actually enjoy it more, without still being on the edge for another jumping pass). And all of this goes back to how Yuzuru views jumps: part of the choreo and performance. If jumps are that well blended within the choreo and with the music, on which basis one can deem the program not well balanced?

I'm not going to comment on the tech panel that could judge at Olys Just more selective blindness to be expected, I guess. Oh well. @fireovertheice I look forward to see that project. Though I can predict what *some people* will have to say about the data: that you have so much free time (*insert sneer here*), and of course you're biased evil fanyus so who cares for the actual data and even if the numbers are ok they're just cold math that doesn't account for the magic of true artistry and so on Hopefully the majority of fs fans will appreciate the work and find it very useful.

whatever pays the bills.. Well he belongs to the sport division of penitentiary police ("fiamme azzurre") but I don't think he actually has anything to do with jails (not while he's still competing anyway). And he's in good company, with Anna, Luca and Caro. As to why penitentiary police, too, has a sport division...no idea Take this as some delicious italian weirdness

thank you

asfaik there are the so-called "helicopter arms" where the skater keeps his arms spread horizontally while doing the jump, instead of pulling them close to his chest. I remeber also someone that put the hands on his waist, but it was old footage, I don't know if there are more variations and I don't know if any skater currently does variations different from tano or rippon in competition. Yuzuru did the helicopter a few times during practices iirc, but I think it was only when he marked the jumps/made doubles? I'm sure @kaeryth will be way more useful than me and provides us some footage (taking advantage of one fellow satellite, I'm so sorry) I think tano and rippon may be relatively "easier" arm variations. For example, I don't think at the moment is humanly possible to keep your arms horizontally when jumping a quad, too much air resistence so the rotation would be too slow, plus harder to keep the axis. Even if you look at the footage of the 4Lz rippon https://twitter.com/corszk1220/status/924315129683963909/video/1 posted a few pages ago, it's a pretty tight (ugly) one (arms very close to the body axis) to minimize air resistance.

mm I left Vincent out from men's podium but a lot will depends on how strict the tech panel will be and if the others will falter. I'm going for Javi gold because he has maybe a slightly better consistency, but Boyang and Mika have the BV to help them so who knows (please both of you guys no meltdown, not too many falls, no pops. Thanks). I'd be happy to see Boyang win though, I don't care if it ruins my predictions. About the girls... Alina feels a bit safer (though stranger things have happened, with Zhenya falling at COR and what happened at SC...). Betting on the japanese ladies and crossing my fingers for all of them, but the chances of all of them being on podium and qualifying are close to nihil and I left out Gabby, I feel bad For Pairs and ID I have high expectation to have at least the gold medalists right, but (again) stranger things have happened before... (Patrick) and here I am. stil trying to make reasonable predictions when my previous ones have been screwed over and over agian

benvenuta! ehi sono stata a Verona un paio di settimane fa, la adoro Oh, è così strano scrivere su questo forum in italiano per ovvie esigenze di tempo questo thread è un po' trascurato (già stare dietro alla chat generale è un'impresa, ho 40 pagine da recuperare ed aumentano) Anch'io proverò ad andare a Milano...per la verità penso che metà forum cercherà di mettere le mani sui biglietti Godiamoci insieme questa stagione!

Maybe men aren't as thrilled about 4F because they dislike that inside edge Most of the quad lutzers don't have strong 3F, right? The only exception being Nathan (amazing). I don't know about Vincent's 4F (in truth I don't know about Adam Dima and samarin). And score-wise the Lutz pays much more. So imo even if the Lutz is harder, for male skaters it's easier to train that than a 4F. 4Lo is hard. That ISU is even thinking of lowering its bv so much more than 4Fis a shame. I'd really like some scientific study on the quads. If you really want to change BV at least make sure to reward the real difficulty. If per chance it will be proved that the loop is easier than the 4F I'm fine with that. But give me some datas (and I don't think that the number of people doing a jump is enough, without other evidences. As I said, the Lutz has way bigger reward at the moment. Now if Lz, F and Lo all had same BV then the number of people could reflect difficulty, of course people would go for the easiest one). I'd like to point out I've never skated myself, my opinion is purely academical

Whops I had totally forgotten Rippon I remembered the two russians and I think Vincent is the one making the rippon (an ugly rippon but I can forgive that...almost ), I'm so sorry Adam I like you a lot please forgive me I'm so nervous about what Patrick will do which is kinda funny, considering I couldn't care less about him until a few months ago...I feel karma rearing its ugly head to punish me But of course he should do what he feels right. If he wants to compete then I believe he can pull himself together, but if competing becames a burden to the point he does that because he has to, I'd rather have him r****e

So many I'm watching on my phone so I can't see the faces (still I recognize Boyang, Yuzuru, Nathan and Mika) but some of these look prerotated/UR but they are tiny on my screen and the video isn't HD, so maybe I'm seeing things....

New round of predictions, yay! Argh, this time it felt much harder, expecially for ladies...and pairs... (crossing my fingers for Aliona & Bruno, I hope they can land a clean throw 3A it's just so huuuuuge) Now I appreciate Evgenia's presence in a competition, at least the first place is 99% going to be a lock... and seriously, a podium should have more than 3 spots, there are so many ladies I'd like to see up there I'm quite excited about the men's event too (assuming Shoma is a lock, if Patrick and Jason manage to land all their stuff they're going to be on podium for sure... and I want to see how Jun Hwan will do. AND if he's changed his awful shirt...).

Not that surprised about the stats, and I'd like to point out that in that table with the total heights Yuzuru is the first among those who put a lot of transitions before their jumps... Patrick second, not surprising either, his toe loop is huge. Not sure from were they took Yuzuru's 3Lo, probably they considered other programs aside those listed at the beginning (I'd like to know based on which criterion they picked the programs too. Obviously not the season best, or they would have picked Boyang's FS from Helsinki. I didn't google translate, is per chance written in the text?). The thing that really surprises me though is that 4Lz are apparently much higher than 4F. Shouldn't it be the opposite? I thought the flip was the jump one could get greater height... but maybe it's because the more powerful jumper haven't done it yet. I think Nathan has a slightly higher lutz while Vincent has a slightly higher flip (though tbh here I'd like to know if those jumps were all properly rotated, Vincent is sometimes prone to issues in that regard, Kevin Reynolds too and some others, the datas about angular speed would end rather skewed then). But apparently a lot of skaters get more height on 3Lz compared to 3F too, exceptions being Boyang, Jason, Patrick, Kevin (Yuzu gets exactly the same ). I wish the same, though maybe it's harder to measure distance accurately due to camera angles. If I remember my physics lessons correctly, in a parabolic trajectory both distance and height are related to the initial speed and the angle of the vector too (well, the initial speed is a vector that has a certain angle with the ground and can be seen as the composition of an horizontal speed and vertical speed, that combined will determine your time of flight. It gets a lot easier to understand when thinking about how in films they show how they adjust the angle of a cannon to make the cannonball reach the target. Ops, I'm going a bit off topic here). The initial speed is obviously related to the entrance speed of the skater and the spring his muscles can get, but in FS jumps there is also the additional difficulty of the skater rotating as he goes up and forward, so it gets too complicated for me. Maybe the spring gives the skater the height while the entrance speed (and body type, plus how fast he can tighten his body) determines both the angular speed and the horizontal speed, and therefore distance? But then there is the Axel where it seems all those different aspects can't be separated at all... Anyway, height isn't directly related to distance, they are both depending on "something else", so there can be jumps that get a lot of height but are short in distance and viceversa jumps that are not so high but cover a lot of space. I agree that likely the highest jumpers aren't those who cover the most distance. In general the highest jump can't be the longest, because the energy has to be somehow split between going "up" and going "forward" and, unless someone has both some very outstanding spring and crazy speed, sacrifices must be made. I guess a skater has to strike the perfect balance. (tbh I think Yuzuru has pretty much the best combination of body type and muscle spring and entrance speed, considering he's squeezing his jumps between difficult transition all the time and still manages to get a lot of height and distance, if not the absolute maximum. Though at the moment he does have the highest 4Lo)

LOL Matsuoka's face says it all (to our revered admins: can we have it as emoticon? I think we might need it a lot during this season...)

sorry kind of at the moment I should be sleeping but I'm watching that Yuzuru Hanyu x Matsuoka Shuzo (2017.10 Hodo Station) video with subs by our wonderful @gladi (gosh I love love love those tiny bits of Chopin in HQ ) and there is this very tiny fragment of Seimei in blue UA and it's giving me the chills (good chills of course, but still somehow scary) Please Yuzu skate your FS with that look and that sharpness and speed for Rostelecom... and without bombing it, so I can rewatch it many many times Also praying for HQ videos and good cameraworkbut of course, if I were to choose, I guess low quality and awful camerawork would be fine as long as Yuzuru has two solid skates