EisElle

help someone come here to pick me up with a spoon, I've melted Thank you thank you thank you to @gladi, to all the wonderful people who helped, to the satellites of this planet and all the awesome Yuzu fans all over the world for this beautiful banner! and of course a special thank you to Yuzuru, who brought all of us together I hope it can cheer him up and make him smile

When I read about Shoma going to 4CC I thought about him getting that #1 ranking over Yuzuru Ngl, it will be weird and a bit sad too. Oh well, more kuyashii to add to the pile Shoma is going for the ruote that proved successful last year (killing himself his nerves with lots of competitions) plus his old layout to regain consistency (hopefully we might see some enriched choreo too). He might even need the boost of that win, imo he's lost some momentum during the season after starting it with a bang (not much for the results, maybe, but for the performances). I'm curious to see how Boyang will perform too. Now a warning: grumbling text-wall not suitable for merry holidays RE: what @Xen said about pcs of top ladies vs top men, I have the same feeling of ladies being scored more strictly in comparison , tho I think this season the pcs marks have been raised a bit for some ladies (possibly to balance a bit the lead Evgenia usually had on her competitors?). imo, people in general might expect more "artistry" from ladies, while it is a bit more of an afterthought for men. In general I would expect higher PCS for ladies because they actually need to work on components to succeed and distinguish themselves, but in the last years some scores tell us some guys have got more "artistic" (or at least better performers) the more quads they jump. I think the difference becomes more apparent when you link the scores to the performances. Usually, messed skates from men are rewarded more than skates with, say, only a pop or a single fall from ladies. In the last GPF, some judges were in panels for both Senior Men and Ladies and for the Free they gave similar PE marks (imo that's the component that could be affected the most by falls and such) to top 3 men and most of the ladies (Carolina maybe being the only one consistently scored higher), but even Kaetlyn (the only lady who fell in her free skate) didn't messed nearly half as much as the top 3 men (and Wakaba only had a couple pops...I'm not gonna talk about her pcs tho). One general explanation could be judges use different standards for pcs for men and ladies because they think ladies are "naturally" better in everything related to choreo and expression (even if pcs are more than that), so what's "good" for men is only "meh" when it comes to the ladies. Judges might expect more from ladies because they know they can do better. The average is higher than it is for men, so,to get a 9, you need higher quality than those men whose "quite good" shines in the sea of "unartistic" guys and therefore gets an upgrade to 9 while it would deserve a 7 by its own. not saying this view is true, it's only my speculation about what the people judging might think OR it might be because the quads changed the expectations about what skaters can do when their focus and energy go to the difficult jumps. They certainly change the expectations about clean skates, so much that the completely perfect skates are beyond rare and splatfests are the norm. If you (kind of) land your fancy quads, you are not expected to do much more, people will count themselves lucky if you keep some speed till the end of the program and they will shout "masterpiece" if you go as far as doing some convincing choreo for your step sequence. Even if half the time you just pause your actual performing to prepare your jumps (and still end messing half of them), your performance is still gonna be fab and your PCS even more fab because you make people hold their breath and then go "oh" "ah" "ouch" and "whoa" with your jumps (unless your name is Yuzuru Hanyu. Then you might need to actually do what the rulebook asks and more if you want those darn scores) So, it looks like there is a quad standard for PCS for (some of) the quad jumpers and more strictness for everyone else, ladies included. I blame this trend we've seen in the last few years, to give generous goe and pcs for quads. I mean, otherwise you can't really explain why judges would score some Jr men close or even better than Jr ladies in pcs in Nagoya, which, if we look at the actual performances, is weird and in some instances even borderline ridiculous (without any offence to the boys. But it is what it is. Ok, only a few judges on both panels there, but still!). Maybe jumping quads has become prove enough of good ss and I've missed the update in the rules (there are people who think a fall on a jump should impact the skating skills mark, so, why not, maybe some people also think landing a jump equals good ss). Right now, it looks like judges seems to think some men have more "artistry" than ladies because they do harder jumps while keeping some (kind of) quality for the rest, not because their "artistry" is outstanding per se. 9s and 10s should be given for outstanding skating skills, outstanding transitions, outstanding interpretation and so on, but I feel sometimes it goes more like this: "look! One spread eagle in a 5 quad program! Outstanding!" "Look, so much speed on two foot! Outstanding!" "Whoa, how well he moves his arms as he does crossovers up and down the rink for his quads, outstanding!" "Look that expression, that cool opening choreo, outstanding!" "What? Why should he skate on one foot? Why should he do anything with his feet outside of the step sequence? Why should he connect with the music for more than half his program? He already does the quads, that's outstanding enough!" Ok, jumping difficult jumps is impressive and everything, but judges are people who are trained to go beyond that, so imo it's their failure as judges when they get drunk of quads and throw undeserved marks. (Also, some judges were on Sr men and Jr ladies panels. Their scores tell me senior men had better skates, with better choreo, more transitions, higher overall quality and better interpretation. Ok, the girls are so young and they look so tiny, but...)

I'm so happy even if it was expected and yasssss Yuzu to Milan! Also happy for all the team! I'm happy Kaori will go to Olys and very happy I will see my favourite bond girl in Milan Now no more injuries, skating gods, please, please, please

barging in this thread as usual () to express my appreciation for the new theme THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!! gosh I miss zuzu

You guys give me heart attacks in the dead of the night (I'm travelling and apparently my usual ability to doze off has deserted me. Now it will be even harder) When was he planning that layout? Right after nhk, when he thought he would be back on the ice early? I hope it wasn't already in december, when he still had some pain and still wasn't training on ice. I'm really really really really relieved Yuzu had to wd from Nats. Have I already said I'm relieved? Because I am. How on earth he could have been planning to do 4Lo in both short and free, plus all the quads in the second half...and the two 3A. Darn, even if I keep learning more about him, he still leaves me shook If he's healthy by Olys (please skating gods please. I'm also looking at you, Universe stop messing with the poor guy ) I do expect to see all the quads. Tho I'll be like watching. I just want Yuzuru to be healthy and mentally in the right place.

Not gonna lie, I made my picks shamelessly going back and forth from ISU season best and personal best pages and a little bit of "screw the scores, I want this skater up there!"

So WD. Oh well, I'm again torn between extreme relief and sadness. Wise choice, Zhenya can be in her top shape at Euros, but she must be feeling very kuyashii It's so heartbreaking strange that the top skaters of men and ladies are both enduring the same setbacks this season Universe better fix this mess in 2018 About qualification, I think this time things are a bit less clear for everyone because of the "invitation" thing from IOC, but considering Zhenya's track record, and considering she was even sent to speak to IOC and she's pretty much become the spokesperson for clean russian athletes, I don't see how she could not go to Olys. I think IOC would want her even if russian fed didn't want her (and tbh russian fed would be idiot not to want her if she's healthy. Even with a broken foot she racked more points than anyone else, higher total score than Alina's GPF)

It could be her second day Oh Zhenya, so determined to go and crush the others at Nats As long as she doesn't hurt her foot again... I confess I'd feel better if she WD. Wouldn't it be worse for her to go at Nats with so little time to train and not in top condition and lose to Alina? But I'm not the one who skated with a broken foot, so what can I know Also, why no Nastya in that group photo?????

Congrats to Javi for his title!and I've realized only now all the competitors of Spanish Nats ended on podium Anyway, that stumble in the entry of his first spin in the SP was really weird And I'm a bit worried about his 4S, since last season it's been almost moodier than Yuzuru's 4S He's taken quite a lot bad falls on itas for the FS 3As, I guess they sensed the Overlord of Axels was sad and rushed back to Toronto to offer their comfort. Poor Javi was ditched btw in the FS that voice over "Don Quijote de la Mancha" always makes me grin, I like that part

I think that NBC tiny gloating in passing would tick me off a lot less if not for Yuzuru's current situation. It's true Nathan is undefeated (JOpen aside, but it was a fluff comp), it doesn't matter that he underperformed, it only means that the others did worse overall tho it should matter that there was some questionable judging, especially if that might have changed some of those results. But I doubt a casual viewer would care, and it's likely they might not even see how judging was questionable in any way Let's hope Yuzu will have many reasons to smile in the next few months, so we will have many reasons to smile too and we can all be zen about whatever other people write. Tho that NBC uses Kyodo as a source bothers me. I understand that for them ankle or knee injury doesn't change much in the bigger picture, but I'd like to see a little more fact checking. Tho of course one would expect Kyodo to be a more reliable source than fan-made translations... so Kyodo is a culprit, too We need a Cuteness overload alert! That's too adorable for words

The WD was expected and it was a relief, but I still feel a bit bummed, thinking about how hard these days (weeks) are for Yuzuru. Hopefully it's true he's back on the ice. To have official confirmationthat he can at least skate, even if just doing a bit of stroking, would be a huge relief. I hope he won't let gloominess and frustration get the better of him, that he can stay mentally strong and that he can keep recovering steadily. We still have no official statement about Yuzu being back on ice, right? Only those tweets and some rumour about "can't jump at high quality" that kinda implies he's at least doing something on the ice... And still JSF hasn't confirmed Yuzuru will be in the Oly team, right? I expect him to be chosen, of course, but an official statement would be nice tbh that Nathan has hardly won any fs, despite having by far the highes BV, is mind boggling, And it's not as if his competitors have been flawless (and this despite the PCS and GOE candies) And well, the cherrypicking is to be expected, as well as media using every chance to prop their fave...I'm sure some people would love to have a less than top condition Yuzu in PyeongChang, but I'm sure he'll do his best to dash their hopes Also, apparently NBC still hasn't learned that too much hype for their current golden boy can have unpleasant drawbacks in competition. ETA: happy birthday to Brian, may he have many more days of happiness and satisfaction ahead and may he need to update soon Yuzu's Oly (and World, why not) plaque on that TCC wall

There's no such thing as too much Yuzu

Well no one has ever said Nathan's ss are gorgeous (well, besides me, but I was comparing what he does in his fs with what he does in ex, tho I reckon those are not really gorgeous SS per se. Still, he looks more fluid than when all his focus is on jumps. And he isn't exactly a skater with the worst ss out there. But ok, I take back the adjective, I used it a bit carelessly). And Max &angelo have never said shoma's ss are like patrick's, they have always been very vocal (max in particular) about Patrick needing 110 if Shoma is scored 90. But people like Takahashi said so, no later than yesterday, and he's not the first person I hear (or read) saying something like this. This doesn't mean I agree Please before feeling outraged consider this is my account of what I've heard, translated by me, so no 100% accuracy of what I've reported. ETA: about the Nathan vs Shoma,they were answering a question about Nathan's and Mika's SS, in particular speed end edges. then somehow Shoma got in the mix, but it might be they had in mind only a particular performance or a particular voice of skating skills. And aside that blog that was mentioned in one of the questions they received, Max has only grumbled in general about forums, Twitter, Facebook and some so called fs experts (no name tho). The reason why I think the rant might be also against some comments in the other place too is because there is a specific thread there and reading it it looks like Yuzuru would be out of Olys for sure if he isn't recovered by JNats. Idk if similar speculations have been made somewhere else ETA 2 correction: actually the comparison was mika and Shoma on posture and edges, the bit about Nathan was about a question on pcs being linked to tes and his score on TR, so they started talking about all his components

Sorry for the messy post, some snippets of what's been discussed in the last podcast by Ambesi and Dolfini. If it doesn't make a lot of sense it's because it's late and I'm a bit sleepy Update about the question of GOE on falls and falls on jumps getting -2 and -1 instead of -3 (it was discussed in the Men GPF thread): according to Max&Angelo, the positive features (positive goe for bullets like e.g. difficult entry, height/distance and such) shouldn't be counted, so a fall should get -3 across the board whatever happens before. As I've said in the Men's GPF thread, I don't remeber seeing the exact words "for a fall final goe must be -3" in the rulebook, while I do remember seeing a very explicit "for elements not meeting the requirements in the SP final goe must be -3" (for example solo jump not preceded by choreographic element). But I haven't read the whole handbook again, so maybe I have just missed that part, and I trust Max&Angelo on tech questions, so if that's their take I'll just accept that my half-attempt to justify the judges that gave -2 and -1 has no basis in the rules (hey, I was just trying to be good and patient with judges for once ) Angelo added that maybe a -2 could be acceptable if it's a fall on the 2nd or 3rd jump of a combo that had for example a good first jump, then it might happen. (some judges gave Shoma's fall on 3A a couple -2 and a -1. Mika on his 4Lz got two -2. While Yuzuru got three -2 on his 3T fall of his jump combo 4T3T in his COR SP). Also, about the SP solo jump preceded by choreografic element , they think the call should be on the tech panel, and I agree. It would be a sensible change of rules, because it's not about "quality of execution" but about a technical requirement, like edge of a lutz/flip or number of revolutions, and it wouldn't be a dramatic change, nor it would be hard to apply at all. Although sometimes tech panels themselves can make some very questionable calls, it's likely we could see the most neglected rule in Men's skating finally applied with a certain degree of consistency within the same competition (I don't dare to hope it could be applied consistently in different competitions ) And they thought there were a lot of borderline UR from both Nathan and Shoma in GPF that weren't called Also, Max would pick Nathan over Shoma on SS... and Angelo said, yes yes, it’s legitimate. Now I’d really like to know more about this I though Shoma was still better, on SS (and TR) that he displays in his competitive programs (tho I think Nathan has gorgeous SS in his EX) and people keep saying that Shoma's SS is on par with Patrick's, so.... Angelo also said Nathan has some interesting choreo and is working on that. At the moment he’s maybe the most complete US skater against those who lacks quads (like Rippon and Brown) and skaters with quads but very bad in components (Zhou, I guess Aaron too). Still his TR score was way too high for what he did. And Max was very angry with people questioning their answers about GOE on falls (one ask cited "The skating protocol" as source saying positive bullets should be counted). And Angelo said then Hanyu would get at worst 0 all the time. And Max said: there’s your proof. (can’t disagree with that, if it were true that positive goe must count then Yuzu shouldn’t ever ever ever get a -3 on his falls. Most of the time they are also so well-timed to the music, they should count as a positive feature, creative exit. But they get -3, so...) About Yuzu, they say Yuzuru will go to Olys (unless he won’t be able to skate there because injured), and Max added: what you read on forums, from 0 to 10, it counts -15 Max added that to say Murakami, Mura, Tanaka deserve Olys more than Hanyu because they go to Nationals is nuts (this is me trying to adapt what he said: “bestialità”, which pretty much means "out of this world, crazy, idiotic, totally insane. Needs to be sent to the asylum asap". I don’t think “bestiality” really translates the word, my dictionary gives me not so apt translations...) Max adds: here we should talk about freedom of speech, too. Don’t read certain forum... and then he goes on ranting for a while Sadly, he's right. I’ve read some crazy stuff in the other place about Yuzu’s oly qualification being in question, I don’t know if they enjoy spreading panic or are just idiots. I read that thread a bit bemused, because while I wanted to laugh, it was so weird to read people discuss at length of what would be a “bestialità” BUT!!!!!! Max &Angelo are worried about Yuzu's recovery because ankle injuries are never easy and after sustaining an injury there is higher chance of re-injuring the ankle (iirc Max said he has first-hand experience, he injured his ankle several times and eventually he broke it but Yuzu already had ankle problems in Nice and then iirc at 2013 Worlds too, but he kinda managed to skate all this years so I believe he can avoid reinjurying himself, if he's careful and doesn't rush with his recovery) They hope that with the help of the best team Yuzuru will be in good shape for Olys. They don't mention the chance of Yuzu going to 4CC, they just worry about his physical recovery in time for Olys. I think the idea of 4CC has never crossed their minds... btw I think they might be against because Yuzu might risk re-injuring himself at 4CC or strain his ankle so close to the only competition that truly matters (this is what I think that they might think, tho)...and apparently they have more faith than us in Yuzu's mental state after 4 months without competing Also, Vanessa James injured her shoulder but apparently not a serious injury, J/C will just miss Nats, but will fight for a medal at Euros and possibly they might have even a chance for an oly medal.

Please, WRs and fluff to dispel the doom and gloom away (before I go home for holidays and I'm forced to be sociable... instead of watching figure skating or zuzu or both at the most ungodly hours ) and I know that I ask it everytime I can, but can we add Change 2014 too? To see happy lively zuzu (tho in that program Yuzu slipped...I don't want to see him fall ever again... but he laughed after so it's ok ) Darn, now I want to suggest LGC Marseille too...and SP and LP from GPF 2014, because Yuzuru was just so happy...and...and...ok, I stop now before the streaming party becomes a day-long marathon

With this new update, the WD seems unavoidable to me. The timing looked already quite tight before, but if Yuzuru is still talking about what he's going to do and not about what he's doing right now on the ice, I don't think it's humanly possible for him to get back to jumping quads in a week. Or even triples. I'm sad that the injury was worse than they thought, he must feel really sad for missing another competition (and very kuyashii because his plans for the season have been screwed up big time ). But I'm glad he's recovering steadily and he's not rushing and I'm relieved he is not going for the samurai ruote like he did in the past I am worried about the lack of competition but tbh I'd worry all the same if he were to go to 4 CC I am so doomed (Tho I usually see the half empty glass, so don't mind me ) I kinda love that the focus will be on Jr and Sr ladies...Poor boys are going to feel neglected . Of course pairs and ID aren't mentioned either, but they have good competitions and WRs to brag about I'm curious to hear if they add anything to what we already know and their take on whether Yuzu could go to 4 CC and on his jump layout. And I'm still curious about Max's sources inside TCC. iirc in a podcast a couple of weeks after NHK he said there was a rumour about Yuzuru needing 10 days more (or a week?) off ice (or resting? I should go back and find which podcast was...but they're so long It's going to take a while unless it isn't one of those that were already translated). I remember I thought "oh s*** for real?" Because I was expecting Yuzu to be already past that and maybe doing some stroking already, but Max was the only one to talk about that rumour so I chose not to worry too much. And then we got Yuzu's update Max was also one of the few commentators (or the first?) to mention Zhenya's and Boyang's injuries (not to talk about the rumour about Seimei in May) so just what kind of spy network does Max have? It’s quite scary (Or is he merely the only one spilling all those rumours to us? But at least most of his rumours are up to date, while some other like B Esp are a few months behind.. )

Let's hope judges will suddenly remember to read the rulebook and check their eyesight properly before handling those +/-5 GOE. For now, imo judging needs more fixing than rules. I think before making any crazy change of rules themselves, they should start applying them strictly and consistently. You can't expect to fix scoring by changing rules randomly, you need to address the rules that don't work, but you can't know which rules doesn't work if you don't apply fully all the rules first. From what we've seen thus far, it does look like limiting quads could do some good to overall programs. But no one can rule out that it is physically possible for a skater to do 7 quads while still being awesome on all the rest. i think before Sochi people would rule out that possibility with 4 quads, but we saw it is possible. So here the problem lies in what the current scoring is saying to skaters: do a bunch of quads and you've got the win in your pocket, you just have to look like you're rotating them, I don't care if you don't do anything between them, or that you barely hang on the landing, or that you are pivoting on your blade instead than in the air. (please forgive my long rambling) If they started applying the no step rule, for example, we wouldn't see many quads in the SP, or at least we would see for some skaters scores that are more in the range of quadless people. A quad with no step is worth a -4, so for example a 4F would be worth less than 9 points, which is still a lot, but easier to be balanced out with spins and steps (or PCS). If they didn't awarded goe just because the jump is difficult, we would see skaters minding more entries and exits, music, height and distance, flow. Nathan's jumps, while they can look effortless and (people tell me so) they've gotten bigger (but still not that huge), have no difficult entries, no varied arm position, no creative exit and tbh I would even say that some of them don't even really match the music, so at best they might deserve +2 but in no way they should get any +3. I don't care if 4Lz3T is the hardest combo ever, you're already getting the bv for that, if you don't hit the bullets for +3 than you don't. What is someone does a 4Lz3T out of steps, huge, matched to music, with double tano and does a SE after it? Then are we going to give the same score to two combos that are so clearly different in execution? It look like some judges have lost sight of both what they see right now and what they still haven't seen. Poor takeoff is worth deductions, too, and it irritates me to no end to hear Shoma's 4flip called masterclass, I'm even be a bit when someone calls him a good jumper. Nathan is a good jumper (a great jumper). Mika is a good jumper, Boyang (Yuzuru of course oh no now I'm thinking again about the latest news, oh nuooooo). Shoma jumps lots of quads, but he doesn't jump big, and he can have rather poor take off, and sometimes poor landings too. His Axel right now it's his best jump (with 4T), looking effortless and stable and he can do difficult entries and exits, but while it's a big jump for his standard, it isn't exactly a big jump per se. I really hope no coach uses those jumps and that jumping technique to teach his skaters how to jump. They could also start lowering PCS when a program is barren of choreo between jumps. Lower TR and CO, but also IN. When a skater is disconnected with the music for a large chunk of the program because he's busy with jumps, he isn't giving a good interpretation. It's not like only step sequence or choreo sequence can count when evaluing IN, the whole program count, so if one part is outstanding and the other is abysmal, it should be marked as "average". And a single arm movement here or there doesn't mean a skater is interpreting the music. It might fool a casual viewer that just enjoys the music and only cares about landed jumps, but not a judge. Judges seem still quite good at evaluing all of this with some skaters, so why they can't get this right when it comes to others? Of course PCS are worth less than BV right now, but scores more in tune with what's being displayed could make the difference among top skaters, and so push them to work on that too. Right now, judges are telling (some) skaters they shouldn't care about working on pcs at all, so of course they won't work on that (unless they have some other inner motivation). Skaters would be eager to correct their strategy if judges told them they need to do more than hitting their tech to win. Maybe skaters would still go for a lot of quads but they'd know that, unless they are absolutely foot perfect, they won't ever edge out the guy that goes cleanish with a BV 10-15 points lower but better overall program (thus getting higher goe and pcs). It would mean betting on others making a few mistakes, and at the same time betting on himself being flawless. Given how hard is to be flawless on so many quads, pure BV wouldn't be anymore the sounder strategy to win. Right now, the BV strategy IS the sounder one, because goe and pcs are still awarded and they are quite generous, so the guy with lower BV has hardly any way left to close the BV gap.

this is just so cute it makes me go squishy squishy Re: USA being fussy After they dictated that crazy oly schedule for figure skating, USA better be in PyeongChang or I will come for them(hint: I am the shark)

Daaaarn disaster season strikes again Boyang is having 0 luck this season...hopefully he can make a great come back for olys. Relieved to read that he is getting better (and that he doesn't need Nationals) Be patient and heal properly Boyangman!

barging in just to say I love the birthday banner!!!!!!!!!!! our zuzu grew up so well

Here it's the 7th too!!!!! Well, I kinda missed the midnight, so I am a tad late in my time zone but who cares! This is a happy day!!! HAPPY BIRTHDAY YUZU!!!!!!!!!!!!!! He has so much to be proud of in his 23 years, I hope he can have a happy b-day surrounded by the people he loves and doing what makes him happy!!! And enjoying the best wishes from all over the planet (planet Earth, but also this Planet )

Putin's words seems encouraging. For sure things looks better than yesterday. Let's hope for the best. I don't know how much on topic this is, so I'm putting this under spoiler What's certain is that, if Russian athletes go to PyeongChang, they'll be by far the cleanest And everyone will know, beyond any doubt, that their medals are truly deserved. silver linings, silver linings everywhere

I feel most of my answers for senior are totally random but hey maybe going for random will give me more points thus far the season hasn't been that good for sensible predictions (or for sanity)

TAT saying something like that makes me hopeful. As Zhenya herself said, the athletes don't know if they might have another shot at Olys in four years. Everything can change even in a few months, there's no guarantee the athletes that now are considered potential medals will even be able to qualify in 2022. So I'm crossing everything and hoping that they'll let them go, and that athletes will choose to go. And that their country will support them. It would still be strange not to see russian flags anywhere, but it would be even stranger not to see russian athletes competing. If they go, at least the efforts of years of training wouldn't go wasted. And I think that what's in the hearts of the athletes and of people rooting for them would count more than a missing flag. Also, the chance to win an olympic medal. Sweet revenge (surely this would appeal to Putin, wouldn't it?)

so many talents lost because they'd rather run after a ball (like thousands of other kids) To be fair, there are still not so many ice rinks there, but yes, I think macho culture is what really holds down figure skating, in Spain and in western countries in general. No amount of sad total-black costumes can change that most people think fs is girlywhen it requires such dedication and mental strenght! To think that skating is not suited for "true men" also belittles girls who have more grit and work harder than many grown "true men" (whatever "true men" are) I wonder if documentaries on the physics of figure skating wouldn't help change the image of the sport, making people realize it's as hard as running on the grass after a ball. Japanese documentaries sometimes get a bit overly dramatic, but they succeed in making you appreciate those athletes. Of course, you have to make people watch those documentaries... But they could...I don't know, make some reality show where soccer players get to learn to skate? That could get some attention (then make them go against junior skaters and watch as those muscular guys are soundly beaten I so want to see this )