When will Yuzu land 4A

[quadaxelwin]

On 9/26/2018 at 9:20 AM, fyere0 said:

 

I think he WILL completely bomb everything else the day he lands the 4A. He'll be so excited he'll lose focus. 

 

First scenario, he'd probably have some kuyashii but mostly be happy because he achieved his childhood dream and winning/losing the competition would seem secondary. Second scenario, some kuyashii that he would already be mentally prepared for because people don't usually land a hard new jump on their first try (unless you're... him!) but at least everything else was clean. So neither situation would be too awful.

 

But if he bombed the 4A and it disappointed him so that he also bombed everything else..... then we'd have a really pouty face.

 

 

Wouldn't winning be just as important to him as landing 4A? If he got a Bronze or off the podium with a ratified clean 4A he will have that Bronze medal or silver medal face...

 

[rockstaryuzu]

I'm sure his plan is to win with the 4A and a raft of other perfect jumps, flawless spins, and a dazzling StSq or two, with a couple or three amazing surprises thrown in for good measure. 

[MarthEmblem]

I voted Helsinki since ACI seemed too early and anything later seemed too late. But now I'm thinking he might go for it at Rostelecom just to claim it as his own in front of Dmitriev and Keegan 

I guess now we play the waiting game 

[Bilge]

6 hours ago, MarthEmblem said:

I voted Helsinki since ACI seemed too early and anything later seemed too late. But now I'm thinking he might go for it at Rostelecom just to claim it as his own in front of Dmitriev and Keegan 

I guess now we play the waiting game 

I voted for Rostelecom because it was the safest to me, not too early not to major like gpf or worlds, after ACI i thought it might be too early for that but if not when? and now people withnessing the nessie.. maybe it can be rostelecom idk anymore

[MarthEmblem]

1 hour ago, Bilge said:

I voted for Rostelecom because it was the safest to me, not too early not to major like gpf or worlds, after ACI i thought it might be too early for that but if not when? and now people withnessing the nessie.. maybe it can be rostelecom idk anymore

 

But then again, we are talking about Yuzuru Hanyu, Extra™ Extraordinaire

He could either 1) land it during one of his GP events to not take a huge risk at a major comp or 2) risk it and land it in front of a big crowd for Maximum Hype like at GPF or World's

He's all fired up now too with his kuyashii at ACI so it really can go either way but I think I'm still leaning towards earlier based on what a lot of the people around him are saying and that scares me lmao 

 

[makebelieveup]

We've been talking about how his 3A has been getting larger. I just checked out a video of Midori Ito's triple axel compilation and boy she got some insane heights. they even looking higher than Yuzu's. But no matter how I look at it, it doesn't seem like the height would give enough airtime to squeeze an extra rotation and even if it does, I imagine that the landing's gonna be really low. But well I'm no expert lol 

[Xen]

10 hours ago, makebelieveup said:

We've been talking about how his 3A has been getting larger. I just checked out a video of Midori Ito's triple axel compilation and boy she got some insane heights. they even looking higher than Yuzu's. But no matter how I look at it, it doesn't seem like the height would give enough airtime to squeeze an extra rotation and even if it does, I imagine that the landing's gonna be really low. But well I'm no expert lol 

The show that had a hologram of Yuzu's 4A mentioned that he'd need 17 cm more height, and 1 m more distance. So it's a combination of height and distance. At his speed, he'd need to go over 0.8 s airtime. Which he is very close to already.  Based on this blog's video analysis, the 4Lz that Yuzu performed, he already had about 0.78s airtime, a distance of 3.15 m and 69 cm. So when he goes for Nessie seriously, it'll probably be even bigger than that.

http://www.perform-live.com/blog/video-analysis-of-figure-skating/231-quad-lutz-what-else.html

 

 

[makebelieveup]

3 hours ago, Xen said:

The show that had a hologram of Yuzu's 4A mentioned that he'd need 17 cm more height, and 1 m more distance. So it's a combination of height and distance. At his speed, he'd need to go over 0.8 s airtime. Which he is very close to already.  Based on this blog's video analysis, the 4Lz that Yuzu performed, he already had about 0.78s airtime, a distance of 3.15 m and 69 cm. So when he goes for Nessie seriously, it'll probably be even bigger than that.

http://www.perform-live.com/blog/video-analysis-of-figure-skating/231-quad-lutz-what-else.html

 

 

 

yeah I remember reading this analysis. I understand the necessity of the height, speed and distance for jumps. But sometimes watching those skaters who practiced them with or without the harness, even when they got up really high they couldnt land it. And Yuzu's quad lutz had a relatively low landing, thus, he fought to get his free leg off the ice and made it look like delayed (although he did manage to land perfectly at that practice) But if the analysis is true, its not impossible to land a quad axel. I just wish Yuzu and the other skaters stay injury free. I guess my dilemma is that I hope Yuzu and the other skaters dont take landing the Axel as a race this season. He said he doesnt care about being the first to land one but we all know how that went with his Quad loop. He just likes to win and to be first. And if as the season goes and he still hasnt managed to hold a WR, the kuyashii might get impatient. I believe these skaters tested out this jump for years, but it takes daily practice when they want to seriously train for any new jump. I remember a female skater, Rika maybe, who talked about how jumping as soon as she stopped practicing her triple axel, its hard getting back into it. 

[EisElle]

actually the delay on 4Lz happens on the first rotation, and the low landing is a consequence of tilted axis, maybe combined with not having enough airtime (related to having first delayed rotation. In theory Yuzuru could have landed a perfectly fine 4Lz with even shorter airtime than 0.78s, if he had tightened his arms immediately. In the analysis liked by @Xen, you can see how insanely fast he does his last rotation compared to the first...with such rotational speed since the very beginning, he would have had all the time to unwrap his free leg properly. Apparently in the practice 4Lz he landed well he also had less airtime)

 

here's an amazing post from Alice on Axel take off.

Achieving (and controlling the landing of) 4A requires getting more airtime (possibly a bit more airtime than on 4Lz to squeeze half more rotation in) and getting high rotational speed (as high or maybe higher than his average speed on 4Lz, possibly doable for Yuzuru, without first delayed rotation...tho it depends on how efficiently he can tighten his air-position on the axel. It's isn't that easy to make comparisons, as the position of arms and legs at the take off is quite different)

 

tbh I'm not even really sure a 4A would necessarily need to be bigger than his biggest 3A... The jump has such weird mechanics, it isn't a given that higher number of rotations = more airtime. quoting from Wiki (it doesn't have sources but I'm positive I've once tread the paper where this was reported)

Quote

Computerized bio-mechanical studies of skaters performing double and triple Axel jumps have shown skaters typically do not achieve as much height on triple Axel jumps as they do on double Axel jumps. This may seem counter-intuitive because higher jumps ought to give a skater more time to complete the rotation. Instead, during the triple Axel, skaters do not take a big "step up" so that they can pull into the rotation position more quickly.

(nb: airtime is proportional to max height)

Going from 2A to 3A usually the jump gets smaller because the moment of step up into the jump (related also to what in Alice's post is skater's arms 'reaching back') gets sacrificed to achive high rotational speed asap.

 

Yuzuru has a great, airy and controlled 3A because he can do both: do a big step up going into the jump (so long airtime) and  efficiently snap into tight position (the two combined allow him to finish his 3 and half rotation a few precious moments before the actual landing)

We have footage of Yuzuru's 3A when he clearly is already unravelling several frames before landing, so his airtime is definitely increasing.

What we don't know is how much faster he can rotate on the axel (we've only ever seen 3As from him, so no reason for him to rotate any faster than he needs to). And we don't know if that speed is enough with the current airtime he can get.

 

one thing is sure tho, with the kind of rotational speed and time duration we're talking about, even the smallest thing can become a very big issue and make the difference between a fine landing and a very dangerous fall. Less time to check position on landing, less time to correct the axis if needed, and of course a much more intense impact...

ISU probably lowered the BV of 4A to make it less appealing to youngsters in search of a 'fast' way to get on top thanks to BV (that's what happened with 4Lz, most of the guys jumping it are younger than Yuzuru...actually, are he and Misha the oldest guys with 4Lz?).

I think it's significant that many of the skaters rumoured to be training 4A are seasoned competitors, while till now we aren't hearing that much from the jumping wunderkids. At the moment a 4A isn't as appealing for an upcoming skater as a 4Lz or a 4F. Yes, there's the glory of landing it but it's much more dangerous, so cost-benefits is skewd towards 'no point in training it yet'

from this point of view, that was a good call from the ISU, despite how much I hate that 4A has been lowballed (of course they could have avoided inflating scores for trying difficlt quads to begin with)

so while there is a race for the history books, I don't think any skater would attempt 4A in competition without being aware of how risky it is. And Yuzuru might be hot-blooded and craving to land that first 4A in history, and I bet he's probably using the competition to push himself, but he loves skating too much to risk that for a mindless pursuit. We're talking about the risk of not ever being able to jump... or skate (or even worse tbh). And Yuzuru is particulary aware of those risks, having been so close to that.

Yuzuru has a plan, and he can be patient, and till now he's always delivered, following his plans.

So I trust him, I trust that when he'll bring it to comp it will be with good reason and on his own terms

 

[Sammie]

The battle for who lands her first is on.  

[Paskud]

Just now, Sammie said:

The battle for who lands her first is on.  

We can joke that Yuzuru's quads are his darlings, but for me it looks like it's Nessie, who has now her own harem 

[Sammie]

17 minutes ago, Paskud said:

We can joke that Yuzuru's quads are his darlings, but for me it looks like it's Nessie, who has now her own harem 

We have three or four men we know of trying to win her hand 

[Xen]

7 minutes ago, Sammie said:

We have three or four men we know of trying to win her hand 

These boys need to back off, she's not even born yet!

[rockstaryuzu]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

These boys need to back off, she's not even born yet!

[Yatagarasu]

3 hours ago, Sammie said:

 

He has tried it before in competition (has anyone else, come to think of it? I am not sure, I don't think so?) and he was far from it. Even in practices, if we're being lenient, he's managed to underrotate it at best. I am not sure this is a wise choice for him but on the other hand, I have so much admiration for this guy. He has been trying for years.