Proposed changes for next season

[WinForPooh]

1 minute ago, hoodie axel said:

I'm less confident now that this is their doing. As I said, Nathan has six quads now if and only if his edge jumps get better. He lands his 4S except it's almost never clean, but his 4Lo has been missing for a while.

 

4Lz

4Lz+3T

4Lo

4S

4T

4F

3A

 

Or maybe they think Nathan legitimately has 6 quads. Wouldn't put it past them.

I know, but Japan voted against and US voted for, right? I thought this rule was being pushed by the US and Japan was being inept, and yet.... Maybe we underestimated Japan strategy and they were playing a double con in the end. Because Kazuki has a great 3A too. The 3A is Shoma's best jump for me. Keiji, when the skies don't collapse on him, has a great 3A. All the Japanese top men and juniors have decent 3As. Their second repeated jump can be a high value one. 

 

This would mean that second 3A has to be in combination, too. More chances of splatting and wobbling from almost everybody. 

[SparkleSalad]

8 minutes ago, WinForPooh said:

Now we just need a petition for a Han Yan comeback and we will have the glorious 3A revolution! 

 

Yesyesyesyesyesyesyes where do I sign?

[Cerunias]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

I'm starting to wonder what's in that coffee they're drinking.

 

Either good drugs, or it's a catchphrase for something else fishy...

 

 

17 minutes ago, WinForPooh said:

Guys, do you realise that Yuzu's Olys FS total would've been higher with this rule and eight jumping passes? He would have nailed two 3A combos just fine so the deduction for the 4T rep wouldn't have applied. 

 

I don't think USFSA know what the hell they're doing either because this basically forces their guys to do two 3As if they want to repeat a jump worth much.

 

This new rule sounds like some kind of middle ground, and seems to not be too terrible.

I do wonder if somewhere in Japan, Yuzuru is sitting there laughing, and thinking of that next world record he could get? 

Who was it on these forums who has an avatar saying "do not touch my world record?" Time to bring that out again...

If Seimei 2.0 would have scored higher with these new rules, we better hope that doesn't encourage Yuzuru to bring out Seimei 3.0 

[robin]

I think what also needs to be considered when discussing hypothetical layouts is how falls and pops are going to be punished more next season (in theory.... if I understand everything correctly) so it might not always be wise to go for risky jump layouts. I am curious to see what layouts skaters will come up with. I can imagine they might not max out difficulty in the beginning of the season to test out the waters and how the new scoring system will actually work and affect their scores- especially now that it's the post-olys season and the stakes are suddenly lowered

[WinForPooh]

1 minute ago, Cerunias said:

 

Either good drugs, or it's a catchphrase for something else fishy...

 

 

 

This new rule sounds like some kind of middle ground, and seems to not be too terrible.

I do wonder if somewhere in Japan, Yuzuru is sitting there laughing, and thinking of that next world record he could get? 

Who was it on these forums who has an avatar saying "do not touch my world record?" Time to bring that out again...

If Seimei 2.0 would have scored higher with these new rules, we better hope that doesn't encourage Yuzuru to bring out Seimei 3.0 

I think that was @Mastyaeva  I think it's still her ava.

 

I kinda like this rule because it annoys me when guys don't work as much on their axels because quads make more sense. This will incentivise 3As. I selfishly like that as a huge axel stan.

[swanbeau]

10 minutes ago, WinForPooh said:

Guys, do you realise that Yuzu's Olys FS total would've been higher with this rule and eight jumping passes? He would have nailed two 3A combos just fine so the deduction for the 4T rep wouldn't have applied. 

 

I don't think USFSA know what the hell they're doing either because this basically forces their guys to do two 3As if they want to repeat a jump worth much.

Any restriction on repeating quads has never been in usfa men skaters' favor (2 of them at least). I dont know why many seems to think so. Repeating 4Lz and/or 4F in combo and solo will always be a huge advantage.

 

5 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

I'm less confident now that this is their doing. As I said, Nathan has six quads now if and only if his edge jumps get better. He lands his 4S except it's almost never clean, but his 4Lo has been missing for a while.

 

4Lz

4Lz+3T

4Lo

4S

4T

4F

3A

 

Or maybe they think Nathan legitimately has 6 quads. Wouldn't put it past them.

Nathan isnt really an edge jumper so.... This ruling doesnt really favor him.

 

He'll probably just do 4 quads. Because falling while trying 4Lo again is a huge risk now, especially when he come into this season as a current world champion with a certain momentum and he is still trying to win the judges affection, or maybe you could say he already won them but he's still in the stage where he needs to maintain it.

 

Or maybe he has the courage on not playing it safe like a certain someone, but i dont know, i kinda doubt that somehow.

[hoodie axel]

 

16 minutes ago, WinForPooh said:

I know, but Japan voted against and US voted for, right? I thought this rule was being pushed by the US and Japan was being inept, and yet.... Maybe we underestimated Japan strategy and they were playing a double con in the end.

 

For the 3A stuff I'm really not worried about any of the top guys, except Nathan (and Vincent if he's a top guy now). TBH, I like it, because the 3A is still a good test of technical capability in men, IMO.

[yuzupon]

I've got a question. Are there any more distiction between what's required or allowed for ladies and for men?

Bcz if not, ISU might as well merge the single disciplines together, perhaps starting in Junior. We all know those ladies would eat the men alive; Trusova's ultimate dream finally will be fulfilled.

[Xen]

24 minutes ago, WinForPooh said:

I know, but Japan voted against and US voted for, right? I thought this rule was being pushed by the US and Japan was being inept, and yet.... Maybe we underestimated Japan strategy and they were playing a double con in the end. Because Kazuki has a great 3A too. The 3A is Shoma's best jump for me. Keiji, when the skies don't collapse on him, has a great 3A. All the Japanese top men and juniors have decent 3As. Their second repeated jump can be a high value one. 

 

This would mean that second 3A has to be in combination, too. More chances of splatting and wobbling from almost everybody. 

This issue distracted from the other issue that would have been rejected- eliminating the steps into solo jump in the SP. Having that rule actually helps Japan, especially if they move to tech panel. Essentially the TP can vote whether there were steps, and only then could that steps GOE be applied on the jumps. However, without the steps being a barrier, it's quite easy for many guys (cough US cough) to do a solo 4Lz or 4F and  not worry. Even if it hasn't been applied well these days, it's also a ticking time bomb because maybe some judges will apply it, hence you'd need to be more cautious if you can't do a 4Lz or 4F out of steps.

 

For Nathan, he could do this:

4Lz3T 4Lz 4F 3A//3Lz-Lo-3F 4T2T 3Lz , which even without bonus has 74.6 base BV, and if we go +2 GOE avg and bonus, would be 100.23, so he won't need the 4S technically.

 

Now if Zu goes this:

4Lo 4T 4S 3F//4T3T 3A1Lo3S 3A2T: base BV without bonus is 70.8 (which is tiny considering he doesn't do 2x 4Lz),  and +3 GOE avg and bonus he's around 104.5 (if +2 GOE he's around 95ish).

*If I add a FCCoSP4, CCSp4, FCoSp4, a StSq4 and ChSq all with +2 GOEs...the TES has hit 131.81. o_O Boy can go break his own record now, since I think somewhere there will be a +4/+5 GOE for his jumps.

 

The thing is...this layout from Zu is quite doable for him, and 4T3T is more stable than 4S3T.

 

 

[WinForPooh]

14 minutes ago, swanbeau said:

Any restriction on repeating quads has never been in usfa men skaters' favor (2 of them at least). I dont know why many seems to think so. Repeating 4Lz and/or 4F in combo and solo will always be a huge advantage.

 

Nathan isnt really an edge jumper so.... This ruling doesnt really favor him.

 

He'll probably just do 4 quads. Because falling while trying 4Lo again is a huge risk now, especially when he come into this season as a current world champion with a certain momentum and he is still trying to win the judges affection, or maybe you could say he already won them but he's still in the stage where he needs to maintain it.

 

Or maybe he has the courage on not playing it safe like a certain someone, but i dont know, i kinda doubt that somehow.

I think because of how many pops and splats there are in men's. If they screw up one quad, they have others to score well with. But if the two-quad folks mess up a quad, they are left with jumping mostly triples, and stuck with a -5 GOE quad.

 

I think more than courage, will Nathan have the time and energy to work on his edge jumps, with school and everything? With 4Lz and 4F, and 4T, he's good, he doesn't have to worry much at all. 4S is coming along though with stumbles. 4Lo? That'll need a lot more work.

[Guest turquoiseblue]

 

[swanbeau]

2 minutes ago, Xen said:

This issue distracted from the other issue that would have been rejected- eliminating the steps into solo jump in the SP. Having that rule actually helps Japan, especially if they move to tech panel. Essentially the TP can vote whether there were steps, and only then could that steps GOE be applied on the jumps. However, without the steps being a barrier, it's quite easy for many guys (cough US cough) to do a solo 4Lz or 4F and  not worry. Even if it hasn't been applied well these days, it's also a ticking time bomb because maybe some judges will apply it, hence you'd need to be more cautious if you can't do a 4Lz or 4F out of steps.

 

For Nathan, he could do this:

4Lz3T 4Lz 4F 3A//3Lz-Lo-3F 4T2T 3Lz , which even without bonus has 74.6 base BV, and if we go +2 GOE avg and bonus, would be 100.23, so he won't need the 4S technically.

 

Now if Zu goes this:

4Lo 4T 4S 3F//4T3T 3A1Lo3S 3A2T: base BV without bonus is 70.8 (which is tiny considering he doesn't do 2x 4Lz),  and _3 GOE avg and bonus he's around 104.5 (if +2 GOE he's around 95ish).

 

The thing is...this layout from Zu is quite doable for him, and 4T3T is more stable than 4S3T.

 

 

Aah i see. this is why the vote shouldnt be a package thing like that, makes it even more confusing smh isu

 

Holy crap nathan can still go with a 'only 4 type of jumps' layout even with this rule. i did not see this coming

 

[WinForPooh]

Ideally, I'd want the steps there. But with how judging how it is, I think it's better to get the GOE for it when you do it instead of doing it and then being told 'yeah well it's requirement you get nothing extra', when people who don't do it don't get deductions, requirement or not. 

[hoodie axel]

Just now, swanbeau said:

Holy crap nathan can still go with a 'only 4 type of jumps' layout even with this rule. i did not see this coming

 

Yes, but now his advantage is bare minimum. Xen hasn't done the calculations, but I think both Boyang and Shoma are pretty close to him. I think they would come up to 101-102.

 

So his advantage of ~15 points in BV is now just around 2 points, 4 at most.

[ICeleste]

Yuzuru, right now: I'm glad 3A is my best friend