General Skating Chat

[Xen]

@Yatagarasu@Joey I honestly have no idea how you guys can go there and argue. I'm checking that thread during lunch break and some of the responses are just 

 

The part that irks me a lot regarding Shoma and the men's edge calls is not just the example they set for future new skaters, but a general fairness issue. Let's look at it this way- in ladies, UR and edge calls are common enough. They've been lenient recently, but let's not kid ourselves, it still gets called. I'm not sure why guys, and maybe just certain guys, should get a pass just because it's a quad rather than a triple. And I think if the number of top ladies doing quads ever reaches the number of men doing quads now, the ladies would be scrutinized heavily. It just doesn't seem fair....

[Danibellerika]

Guys, please refrain from discussing GS. Discussion about other forums and their members is off topic.  You are free to PM about it though.  

[Xen]

15 minutes ago, SSS said:

To everyone from PH, thank you!

I don't think the skating community (ie. coaches and tech panels and all judges) are blind or really endorse what is being done by Shoma in regards to jumps. And most coaches don't teach flips and lutzes like Shoma's anyway-other than it not being right, it might bring about injuries more easily, and isn't quite that natural for most skaters. It just hasn't reached tipping point yet. This season Nathan just debuted on the senior circuit- if he was already established then there might be a ruckus. China doesn't swing for single's skaters as much as pairs, so Boyang wasn't enough to raise it up. Now,  if Patrick brings out the 4F, and Yuzu brings out the 4Lz, then you add in Nate in his second year and the US fed,  it might be the tipping point, simply because there is no clearer contrast in technique and 2 big feds with guys on the line are involved. 

[Aotoshiro]

On 16.08.2017 at 7:47 AM, Xen said:

I don't think the skating community (ie. coaches and tech panels and all judges) are blind or really endorse what is being done by Shoma in regards to jumps. And most coaches don't teach flips and lutzes like Shoma's anyway-other than it not being right, it might bring about injuries more easily, and isn't quite that natural for most skaters. It just hasn't reached tipping point yet. This season Nathan just debuted on the senior circuit- if he was already established then there might be a ruckus. China doesn't swing for single's skaters as much as pairs, so Boyang wasn't enough to raise it up. Now,  if Patrick brings out the 4F, and Yuzu brings out the 4Lz, then you add in Nate in his second year and the US fed,  it might be the tipping point, simply because there is no clearer contrast in technique and 2 big feds with guys on the line are involved. 

I'd say three feds, considering Canada IS still a big threat in any discipline (even though the ice dance is the most obvious...), as this year's Worlds had shown (Okay, not so sure about pairs...)

[meoima]

OK so I have just heard some ridiculous comments the entry of some jumps. Normally I would ignore it but I am afraid if there is no clear analysis, many people might have believed such FALSE and MISLEADING remarks. 

 

So that person claims that Shoma Uno's transitions before the 4lo is the most difficult entry. He said that Shoma Uno did Rocker RBO-RFO into a  FO-RBO counter before the 4lo. I have to say it's totally wrong. He even compared Shoma Uno's entry before the Loop to Evegenia Medvedeva's crazy entry before her Solo 3Loop in the short program. 

 

I have noticed many people believe that person. I write this post because I do not want them to spread the wrong information around too widely. I want to make it straight.

 

First, simple definition of the turns in figure skating: http://chibura.tumblr.com/post/163644861710/please-enjoy-some-videos-about-the-6-one-foot

This one is very good: http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/162905929409/turns-and-steps-explained-12

 

Second, please use the super slow motion before the jumps in these fancam:

Zhenia's 3Lo entry https://youtu.be/LqhOqRukNNU?t=1m55s

Shoma's 4lo's entry https://youtu.be/dWKrE7cbPsg?t=6m32

 

Third, let me break it down.

 

1) Zhenia's entry before solo 3lo: Right back outside edge - counter - Right forward outside edge - Change of edge to inside edge into 3 turn - 3lo (forward inside edge 3 turn backward outside edge 3 loop). Oh and Zhenia also did a counter after the 3lo so she was doing Counter - 3lo - counter!!! That's crazy! (and Yuzuru will do counter 3A counter in the Chopin 3.0, it seems he likes this move Zhenia owns).

Here is the slow motion of her entry https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2x6lKiyto-8WG5oSVFySnVndjg/view

 

The whole sequence was done one 1 foot. I draw it out here, sorry for the bad drawing: http://imgur.com/OfMMY5A

I have to say, it is very easy to pick out the move Zhenia does on the ice. Everything she does (aside from her Flutz) is quite clear and easy to see. It is very clean and neat. In short, very clear to the judges. It is very easy to give her good GOE because it's so neat to the eyes. 

 

2) Shoma's entry before the solo 4lo. This one is very tricky because the edge was unclear. The "expert" who we might all have known claimed that Shoma did a rocker into a counter. Let me explain why it's wrong. Because with rocker/counter, you have to move from one curve to another (see the 2 tumblr posts above explaining the turns). With Shoma Uno, THERE WAS NO move from ONE CURVE TO ANOTHER CURVE.

 

Here is the slow motion of the whole entry Shoma did https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B2x6lKiyto-8N2k2Q3J6QTQtV3c/view

 

The edge Shoma did after the turn was very unclear, it was like he could not maintain/control the edge. So he was skating half on the flat edge (or maybe outside a bit because it was very unstable) but I would say he aims for the inside edge. Shoma goes into the 4Loop by Forward inside edge 3 turn backward outside edge - Loop (it's the fundamental for all the Loop jump). I drew the whole sequence here. http://imgur.com/c6PuuZQ

 

In the video of WTT FS, some people might think Shoma did a rocker (from RBO to RFO) but there was no clear curve 1 to curve 2. Unlike, with Evgenia Medvedeva, you can see the curve she does very clearly.

 

I also asked another coach and we came to a conclusion that, after the RBO turn which is unclear if it's a 3 turn that he failed or a rocker that he failed, Shoma Uno skates on the inside edge, substitutes the left leg and moves to the back on two legs then goes straight into the 4lo. We count it as 3 turn because it's on the same curve. 

 

3) What baffles me was that person claimed Zhenia Med did a rocker into counter, then later he claimed she did two counter and claimed that Shoma did rocker - counter into 4lo. And I was like: Where is the counter where is the rocker??????? My friend re-watched the video over and over again with the same question. 

 

My advice: If you have to trust anyone with the tech analysis, please take whatever that comment says as JUST a reference. I would never trust the technical comment from someone who claimed 2 foot move as a counter.

[Xen]

20 minutes ago, Aotoshiro said:

I'd say three feds, considering Canada IS still a big threat in any discipline (even though the ice dance is the most obvious...), as this year's Worlds had shown (Okay, not so sure about pairs...)

No, just 2 feds may consider ruckus . I'd only count US and Canada. China I don't think will move for Boyang. And I think Boyang knows it- Chinese Fed's focus is pairs skating, it's where we do the best, and most of the best skaters are fed into the pairs system very early on. The fact we got Boyang is a miracle IMO. Chinese fed will move for Beijing 2022, and Boyang's team is playing for that cycle. If he medals in PC, which is highly possible considering how he medalled while being written off the past 2 worlds, then it's just icing on top. I'm not sure what Spain will do. 

 

The bigger issue with Shoma this season is that quads may no longer be considered that "rare"- especially if Patrick brings a quad flip into the equation. Now for every quad you have at least 3 guys who can do it. No longer a novelty, it might be called much more harshly. This was closer to the trend when ladies started bringing in more 3Lz-3T/2T combos. The only real differentiation occurs on the tech panel calls and the GOEs once novelty wears off.  And that is probably why I don't really agree with the idea of Shoma bring in a 4Lz.  The novelty of the 4Lz, if Yuzu and Shoma both add it, will be 4 guys amongst the top 6, and more if we go out of the top 6. 4Lz might be considered before 4F for guys due to tendency to Lip. On the other hand, 4F is still not that common, so the novelty factor may still remain. And he has done it enough times that it makes sense to go for more GOEs, with the new system coming out after Olys. 

 

On another note, I'm so glad I don't see flip-flopping of positions and principles here. If we get into more technical details and infiltration of other forums, I'd also like to mention most of us in this chat are aware of which other forum and whom that specific person is. There isn't a need to mention it specifically. 

[Murieleirum]

25 minutes ago, Xen said:

 The novelty of the 4Lz, if Yuzu and Shoma both add it, will be 4 guys amongst the top 6, and more if we go out of the top 6. 4Lz might be considered before 4F for guys due to tendency to Lip.

 

And you're not even taking into consideration the fact that if Yuzu and Shoma both debut 4Lz this season... the difference between the two jumps will just be too much not to do anything about a cheated technique. 

(Although I guess they already had perfect 4Lz from Boyang and Nathan when they landed them well)

[Xen]

8 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

And you're not even taking into consideration the fact that if Yuzu and Shoma both debut 4Lz this season... the difference between the two jumps will just be too much not to do anything about a cheated technique. 

(Although I guess they already had perfect 4Lz from Boyang and Nathan when they landed them well)

No, I would not consider the possibility of tech panel calling cheated technique. That ship has long sailed away. What I'm arguing is that this season, if both add it, then the 4 Lz could be put under more scrutiny than before, similar to how ladies and the huge number of 3Lzs were scrutinized for edge and UR right after the COP system got stable. If everyone is doing the same thing, then cleasiness plays a bigger role in the points. So no cheats called, but maybe more edge calls, unclear edges called and URs called. Amongst the top men, any one of those might be why you are on or off the podium this season.  With just Boyang and Nate alone, 4 Lz had some novelty. This season, not that novel anymore. Honeymoon period is over. 

[Murieleirum]

1 minute ago, Xen said:

No, I would not consider the possibility of tech panel calling cheated technique. That ship has long sailed away. What I'm arguing is that this season, if both add it, then the 4 Lz could be put under more scrutiny than before, similar to how ladies and the huge number of 3Lzs were scrutinized for edge and UR right after the COP system got stable. If everyone is doing the same thing, then cleasiness plays a bigger role in the points. So no cheats called, but maybe more edge calls, unclear edges called and URs called. Amongst the top men, any one of those might be why you are on or off the podium this season.  With just Boyang and Nate alone, 4 Lz had some novelty. This season, not that novel anymore. Honeymoon period is over. 

 

Yep, sorry, with 'cheated technique' I just meant calling edge calls, unclear edges and URs. I guess my vocabulary can improve a little, hehe. 

 

I can't wait to see how Yuzu's 4Lz will be judged, though. I mean, it depends on how Yuzu pulls it off, of course, but the one we've seen at WTT (landing aside) was technically correct, high and big. Also, if he's considering adding it, it means he knows he can get good GOE. Maybe he even knows he could get 3 GOE, because you don't get more perfectionist than Yuzu.

[Danibellerika]

2 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

And you're not even taking into consideration the fact that if Yuzu and Shoma both debut 4Lz this season... the difference between the two jumps will just be too much not to do anything about a cheated technique. 

(Although I guess they already had perfect 4Lz from Boyang and Nathan when they landed them well)

Well, at 4CC Nate got better GOE on his 4 lutz combo than Boyang did. After seeing them both do them in front of me in the same spot in Helsinki practice, the quality between them is like night and day. You got "good" (Nate) and then "WOW" (Boyang) and yet the points didn't properly reflect that at all.  So I still think judges will do what they want. Yuzu has a better 4 loop than Shoma (not to mention Yuzu makes it hella harder by spread eagle sandwiching it) but the scores haven't always reflected that.  So I would not bank on anything in that regard.  

[Murieleirum]

18 minutes ago, Danibellerika said:

Well, at 4CC Nate got better GOE on his 4 lutz combo than Boyang did.

 

4CC was a pearl, wasn't it? Even Max Ambesi complained about the unfairness of the scores thrown around like candy crush in that case. Some judges gave Nathan higher SS than Yuzuru. In any case, one can only hope in something different for the future. 

(I guess though, if they don't change the judges, or the judges' mentality, there's no point in changing the GOE's from 3 to 5 really)

[Xen]

Not sure if this is the right thread, so please correct me if I post this wrongly, mods!

 

I'm very very very super super super curious about this. For the next oly cycle, if we take Yuzu and Shoma out of the equation, who does everyone think is the next  big guy to come out of the Japanese Men's? 

[SparkleSalad]

58 minutes ago, Danibellerika said:

Well, at 4CC Nate got better GOE on his 4 lutz combo than Boyang did. After seeing them both do them in front of me in the same spot in Helsinki practice, the quality between them is like night and day. You got "good" (Nate) and then "WOW" (Boyang) and yet the points didn't properly reflect that at all.  So I still think judges will do what they want. Yuzu has a better 4 loop than Shoma (not to mention Yuzu makes it hella harder by spread eagle sandwiching it) but the scores haven't always reflected that.  So I would not bank on anything in that regard.  

 

I'm far from an expert but the difference is still apparent watching on a screen. Boyang's 4lz is amazing and I laugh out loud with delight whenever I see it.

[CupidsBow]

As for scoring getting harsher in any way this season? Lol no, I don't see it. Any really obvious mistakes might get called but unless someone is going into a jump really obviously forwards or landing really obviously forwards I don;t think we're going to see many downgrades. Edge calls? Maybe. If Patrick is bringing in a 4F and has very clean entry on it, it might knock down the GOE awarded to less great attempts, and if Yuzu does bring a good 4lz I think the novelty will wear off, more edge calls might be made and, because there's more to compare against, GOE will be awarded a touch less generously for attempts. Same goes for the 4lo if Javi adds it. With these jumps being less of a new shiny thing and more skaters trying them, I think the judging will settle.

But harsher judging in general? No way. It's Olympic season, there's a greater audience of people paying attention to sports they usually ignore. Big scores get media attention. Media attention promotes the sport. If the mens are events are anything like Worlds, they can get a lot of media hype and casual audiences attention. Perfect for promoting to sport and trying to attract new fans and the money that brings. Judging might tighten up after the olympics but it sure as hell won't before. I just wish it was a bit more even and the overlap between PCS and TES was less pronounced. Certain skaters should not be getting 9s in PCS just because they landed difficult jumps when jumps are rewarded in TES. Unbalanced programs where the elements feel disconnected from each other and nothing relates to the music should not be getting high 8s or low/mid 9's in PCS. 

In the same vein, I do get a feeling Boyang's rep as having poor skating skills/poor PCS eats into his GOE as well. Hopefully his 4lz will get what it deserves soon

[xeyra]

Mikhail Kolyada is also bringing in a 4Lz and his is gonna be huge! Just hope he lands it more often now than last season.