General Skating Chat

[yuzuangel]

21 minutes ago, SSS said:

It seems that Yamada's skaters have high toe pick leg..Why do they need it?

Probably because as a kid, when you are training doubles and triples, mule kicks are very efficient ways to do that very fast and less destabilizing when you are small. However, as you grow taller and fill out your frame more, it becomes a bit of an impediment. Probably she just never corrects her skaters so they develop a bad habit.

 

Sometimes I see very young girls, maybe 8 or 9, doing doubles all over the rink with the worst mule kick in the world. But they can jump like 10 doubles in one minute, they rotate so fast and get so little height. Even at that point it's probably hard for them to fix it.

[Sombreuil]

And this is why the judges should be hammering bad technique - so that 10 year olds and their coaches know it's necessary to correct these things.

[Danibellerika]

13 minutes ago, Joey said:

 

Not sure how this is related to what I wrote - of course all of them are in it for themselves. Repeating programs or not is not a compareable issue at all though. It's allowed according to the rules, so if people like it or not, they can't argue for it affecting scores/placements/results (though of course everyone is allowed to voice criticism, disappointment and so on). But a lutz edge is supposed to be an outside edge, that's according to the rules, not peoples preferecnes.

 

And it does matter to some of them. Yuzu has worked on stuff/taken risks that wouldn't give him points (last years music choices for example). Nathan could continue to rack in high PCS despite little choreo, yet the snippets of his new SP suggest he's working a lot on "rightly" improving his PCS. And people are free to laud these skaters for that just as much as they are to criticize another skater for taking shortcuts.

 

PS: thank you SSS, you're sweet

I meant it in a sense that he wouldn't wait on it because he will do whatever he can regardless of what people think is or isn't fair or regardless of what the criticism is.  He will continue to do what is in his best interests and that's aim for an OGM right now even if it's a 4 flutz which will give him more points that a 3 flutz.  Judges aren't going to follow the rule book every time like they should and that's been the nature of the sport since forever. I'm not saying it's a good thing, but it's an near given as unfortunate as that may be.

 

And Nathan's short last year was great, so he is capable.  I had no problems with that scoring highly.  It's just a matter of how much he'll have to sacrifice for 6 quads in the long.  

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

...would anyone here care to hear my thoughts on the matter regarding Uno or would contributing towards this discussion in any way be discouraged? I wouldn't be so hesitant if this were simply about Hanyu but since it's an ongoing debate about someone else...

 

Somehow, things seem to get more heated when the debate is on someone else (usually a direct rival) than when it's on Hanyu on this board, or on any other boards, really. Which I think is due to the Hanyu factor being weighed against others instead of against Hanyu himself (or others weighed against Hanyu). Things just tend to become more volatile then, lol...

 

So if y'all want this topic to come to a close, I'll keep my thoughts to myself and refrain from contributing to avoid possibly dragging it out longer, no problem.

 

Warning: If you say you want to read what they are, I'll tell you right now that the post will be a long one, like a lot of my posts tend to be, so you might wanna ask me to shut it just because of that.

[Forcefield]

12 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

...would anyone here care to hear my thoughts on the matter regarding Uno or would contributing towards this discussion in any way be discouraged? I wouldn't be so hesitant if this were simply about Hanyu but since it's an ongoing debate about someone else...

 

Somehow, things seem to get more heated when the debate is on someone else than when it's on Hanyu on this board. Which I think is due to the Hanyu factor being weighed against others instead of against Hanyu himself (or others weighed against Hanyu). Things just tend to become more volatile then, lol...

 

So if y'all want their topic to come to a close, I'll keep my thoughts to myself and refrain from contributing, no problem.

To be honest, to be real honest, I like to hear opinions and thoughts on other skaters who are Hanyu's competitors as well as on Hanyu, as long as it is a critique and not just plain hating. I have a very high threshold though and I don't believe being a fan means I can only flail and gush about the good things.

 

Edit: I think talking about theories and strategies are interesting too. I used to love-love football (soccer) and the amount of flack fans throw at coaches and even some players is unbelievable so maybe I'm just more immune.

[Danibellerika]

3 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

...would anyone here care to hear my thoughts on the matter regarding Uno or would contributing towards this discussion in any way be discouraged? I wouldn't be so hesitant if this were simply about Hanyu but since it's an ongoing debate about someone else...

 

Somehow, things seem to get more heated when the debate is on someone else than when it's on Hanyu on this board. Which I think is due to the Hanyu factor being weighed against others instead of against Hanyu himself (or others weighed against Hanyu). Things just tend to become more volatile then, lol...

 

So if y'all want their topic to come to a close, I'll keep my thoughts to myself and refrain from contributing, no problem.

 

We're still discussing, just no bashing of skaters or members. This should not be the place to villainize anybody.

[Xen]

14 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

...would anyone here care to hear my thoughts on the matter regarding Uno or would contributing towards this discussion in any way be discouraged? I wouldn't be so hesitant if this were simply about Hanyu but since it's an ongoing debate about someone else...

 

Somehow, things seem to get more heated when the debate is on someone else (usually a direct rival) than when it's on Hanyu on this board, or on any other boards, really. Which I think is due to the Hanyu factor being weighed against others instead of against Hanyu himself (or others weighed against Hanyu). Things just tend to become more volatile then, lol...

 

So if y'all want this topic to come to a close, I'll keep my thoughts to myself and refrain from contributing to avoid possibly dragging it out longer, no problem.

 

Warning: If you say you want to read what they are, I'll tell you right now that the post will be a long one, like a lot of my posts tend to be, so you might wanna ask me to shut it just because of that.

I'm open to the idea. If you're really worried, we could use PM. Glad to hear different opinions. =)

[beki]

Honestly I'm dreading watching Shoma this year as he throws in everything but the kitchen sink to see what will stick. It may very well work. If he could execute his planned elements in a more textbook fashion, he'd be a marvel, but as it is it's painful to me. And obviously it's going to be incredibly divisive, as we seem bitter and defensive to his fans. Depending how easy he looks, the general audience certainly won't catch on either.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

18 分ぐらい, Danibellerikaさんが言いました:

 

We're still discussing, just no bashing of skaters or members. This should not be the place to villainize anybody.

Can you please define "bashing" and "villifying"? Because it seems a rather subjective term in most debates like this I've seen so far. I have both positive and negative opinions. As a preview, I think that what Uno is doing may not necessarily be the right way to do things from a bigger picture perspective, but it is the only way to do them based on what he wants to achieve. Everything else is simply elaboration so I suppose could leave it at that if you're all wary, lol.

[Danibellerika]

3 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Can you please define "bashing"? Because it seems a rather subjective term in most debates like this I've seen so far. I have both positive and negative opinions. As a preview, I think that what Uno is doing may not necessarily be the right way to do things from a big picture perspective, but it is the only way to do them based on what he wants to achieve. Everything else is simply elaboration so I suppose could leave it at that if you're all wary, lol.

 

It would be personal attacks on a skater or member.  Post your response and I'll let you know if it has to be edited.  

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Okaaay, here goes nothing (warning: it's loooooong ass--like,  even the paragraphs are long -.-; )

 

In all fairness, Uno, to my knowledge, has never said he wanted to be the best. From the time he turned senior, he's only ever said he wanted to beat Hanyu. I don't think he even explicitly said he wanted to win. It's always been beating Hanyu, as far as I can remember. Hanyu, on the other hand, had been all about wanting the Oly gold, wanting to be the absolute best, and wanting to be the kind of skater that no skaters he's competing with can beat, from Day One, all of which he still has yet to waver from. So far, he's managed the first two, but not the last, because in becoming the best, truly and simply the *very* best, he has to first be beaten on the way there. Now that, win or lose, he's indisputably the best competitive figure skater to have ever lived (until someone who surpasses him in skill and achievements comes along) he only has being unbeatable left to check off his bucket list of epic accomplishments to achieve (landing the 4A in competition would be considered as major but not epic, proportion-wise).

 

Uno is probably aware that even if he were to beat Hanyu, he won't be able to take the reputation of "best" from him. Because to be the best is to harbor ambitions that surpass the lofty ones Hanyu has set for himself. I don't think anyone with the drive capable of tackling that exists in the senior ranks right now. Because it is not just due to the fact that Hanyu was born this way, his attitude towards attaining his goals was also largely shaped by his unique circumstances.

 

Most of us are just glad we're alive the same time as the guy but imagine having Hanyu as an active competitor to go against. That's a rare opportunity and it won't last forever. So even if Uno (or anyone else currently in the field for the matter), can't ever take the title of 'best' from the guy, he nevertheless can still try to beat him. Because whether or not he's successful, he could say he's given it his best shot.

 

Come to think of it, we don't know what Hanyu himself would've done had someone like him been the person to beat back when he was an up-and-comer. Chan had been the one to beat then and while  he was a tough opponent and a competitor that's favored by the judges at that, he wasn't exactly the Mt. Everest Hanyu is right now. His (Chan's) best scores back then did not require a crazy amount of quads to beat, even if your GOEs and PCS weren't quite in the same league yet. And some lifting helped but it didn't need to be an overt amount to the point where judges and tech panels are actively turning a blind eye to your shortcomings. Coupled with the fact that by chasing Hanyu, you'd essentially be chasing a guy chasing *himself*, well, you really don't have much choice but to bank on higher BV and see if the guy trips and falls on his face while chasing his own shadow. And let's not forget this freaking monster isn't just chasing himself, but somewhere along the way, even as you see his back far in front of you, if you happen to look back, you'd somehow also see him right *behind* you stalking and chasing *you* down like some bloodthirsty predator. So maybe some people are right to blame him for the quad craze that's going on right now (though I don't think it's right to take an antagonistic stance towards him for it). 

 

Honestly, though, I can't say I am able to highly respect Uno as a skater or even as a competitor, and out of all the top 6 contenders, I can safely say I respect him the least because he's the only one, in all honesty, who is doing things that can firmly be counted as--wait for it--"cheating". I say this because what he's doing has been clearly defined in the rulebook as "cheated jumps" so this isn't an opinion. It's just what it is. Him not getting called out for it or caught for it doesn't mean he's not doing it. Yes, he does not mean to do it and if he could do better now he'd have done so already but all that still doesn't change the fact that he's *doing* it. The technique he employs is prone towards it, he knows it, but has so far chosen to not do anything to make it less prone because that would take him away from his current ultimate goal. So he keeps doing it. And getting the same kind of scores or more as those who *aren't*. Even if it seems he's being encouraged towards that direction, doesn't mean he should keep going towards it. But he *is*. And all this because he wants a chance to beat Hanyu on the quite highly probable chance (as indicated in past seasons) Hanyu would have an off day. But since he's made it clear that that's his ultimate goal for now, even though I don't see it as the most ethical of decisions, I can understand it, as this is the only direction he can move along to have a chance at reaching the goal he's set for himself. Even if it's at the risk of a shortened career. And that's probably why his team is supporting him. He's probably laid his objectives out clearly to them and although highly dependent on the whims of others including that of lady luck's, like I just said, this sacrifice of integrity and possibly longevity is probably the only way for him to attempt achieving them. It doesn't change the fact that he's worked his rear off to achieve what he has (which includes consistency, something I think his participation in a high number of successive competitions last season helped with a lot), so I can at least respect that and his determination to reach his goal. 

 

Aaaaand that's where I personally stand on this whole debate. I'm neither looking for agreement nor disagreement (though anyone is, of course, free to do either), but just telling it the way I see it from as objective a standpoint as I can manage as a Hanyu über.

 

Phew! That feels pretty good to get off my chest, though I have to apologize to those who attempted to wade through all of that. >_<

[Murieleirum]

Why is 'strategy' such a bad word, by the way? Every skater and skater team has a strategy. Either they do, or they have no idea what they're doing. Yuzuru's strategy with 4Lz is keeping everything quiet and analyzing in semi-secret whether and when it will be the case to add it. Nathan's strategy is to gain PCS through clean quad-performance (that's the best name I can come up with of his fs lol). Boyang's strategy is to slowly become as strong he is with jumps as with everything else (good strategy, might I add). Shoma's strategy is to work on his PCS and hope his UR and Edge aren't called. That's just how things are, aren't they? Having a strategy doesn't make you evil. 

Every skater who has one or more flaws (meaning, every skater in the world except Yuzuru - jk- or am I) has a strategy that puts the focus on their strenghts and takes away attention from the said flaws.

(And may I make a little off topic here, to say how I'm surprised, really, that not all-round skaters are even able to come this far at all. In music, there is no musician whatsoever who becomes a soloist when they lack something, either in technique, or interpretation. You have to have everything if you want to stay on top. And I think many skaters could learn from the musical world. Or, you know, from Yuzu).

 

So, point is, I am part of the group who thinks that Shoma adding 4Flutz is part of his team's strategy to try and up his Base Value, and take advantage of the fact that his mistakes haven't all been called out.

 

When every FS expert ever tells you that if you want to fix your edge you have to start back from singles, and you will never get a correct quad in the span of a summer, that's just how things are. If Shoma's team's intention of correcting the Lutz edge was sincere, honest and clean, we wouldn't see Shoma's quad Lutz before 2019.

 

This said, I do believe Shoma wants to become an all-round skater, I do believe he wants to improve, I do believe he's following his ideal of skating. But he should change team, because it might soon become too late. 

[GreatLakesGal]

35 minutes ago, beki said:

Honestly I'm dreading watching Shoma this year as he throws in everything but the kitchen sink to see what will stick. It may very well work. If he could execute his planned elements in a more textbook fashion, he'd be a marvel, but as it is it's painful to me. And obviously it's going to be incredibly divisive, as we seem bitter and defensive to his fans. Depending how easy he looks, the general audience certainly won't catch on either.

 

  He really does do that, doesn't he? I feel a bit sad for him because he's still pretty young and clearly did not get the benefit of adequate technical coaching. If it's true that he has been having some physical issues, he probably sees this as his only chance for an OGM. (I think this is also true of Nathan Chen.)

 

That said, the continued failure to penalize him for his substandard jumping technique is unforgivable and makes a mockery of figure skating as a sport. Props to Yatagarasu for writing a terrific post about this over at GoldenSkate.

[Murieleirum]

2 minutes ago, GreatLakesGal said:

If it's true that he has been having some physical issues, he probably sees this as his only chance for an OGM. (I think this is also true of Nathan Chen.)

 

Now, now, you're making me cry like this though. 

 

2 minutes ago, GreatLakesGal said:

That said, the continued failure to penalize him for his substandard jumping technique is unforgivable and makes a mockery of figure skating as a sport. Props to Yatagarasu for writing a terrific post about this over at GoldenSkate.

 

Do you have the link for that post? I'd love to read it! I love drama when I'm not the one involved! 

 

 

Re: Cheating jumps and judged not judging properly. Here's a metaphor:

You go on a bus. You see there's no official that checks your ticket, so you don't buy it. The State made a mistake by not controlling your ticket. But you made a mistake by not buying the ticket, because you're not paying taxes. 

 

Can you see who is the state official and who is the unlawful citizen in this metaphor? 

[SSS]

2 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

And let's not forget this freaking monster isn't just chasing himself, but somewhere along the way, even as you see his back far in front of you, if you happen to look back, you'd somehow also see him right *behind* you stalking and chasing *you* down like some bloodthirsty predator.

Dokidoki

 

just found out the quoting text feature . Amazing on phone..