General Skating Chat

[yuzuangel]

I'm sure they'll improve.

 

I don't share this belief at all, this last Shoma interview actually assures me more than ever of that.

 

It isn't even that they ignore his URs and that only rarely they give him a ! on his Lz (WTT was the exception but I doubt very much it's a beginning of a trend). It's that flip that should never, never be accepted as a flip. It is so bad that at this point it really is a merger of two or even three jumps, because as someone pointed it out on GS, at which point do we start calling this a creative entry to an Axel?

 

To have this changed, judges must start calling it. It's not going to happen just like that. Yuzuru got his Lip calls and worked on it for example. Unless the system starts punishing them, there is nothing in it for them not to continue as they have been. PCS in general has gone completely bonkers so Marina will simply package Nathan properly and that'll be that. They want it and they don't care how they get it, and why should they? Do you really think anyone but a few skating fanatics will care?

I'm talking more of a general improvement as skaters. Shoma won't be remembered for his technical side but he can try to balance both sides of his skating since he is much better in PCS. And even if judges don't call out incorrect technique that doesn't mean he can't improve by his own will, specially since bad technique means also more injuries and if he wants a larger career he needs to adress those problems.

 

Fixing technique is hard though....and leads to injuries while you're doing it (i.e. Satoko). It also leads to a couple seasons of inconsistency while you're between techniques. So I think skaters will only do it if they're forced to (Mao and Yuzuru's wrong edge problems). Sometimes they won't even try. Isn't there a saying that it takes 10k tries to learn a jump and 40k tries to relearn it?

[meoima]

I'm talking more of a general improvement as skaters. Shoma won't be remembered for his technical side but he can try to balance both sides of his skating since he is much better in PCS. And even if judges don't call out incorrect technique that doesn't mean he can't improve by his own will, specially since bad technique means also more injuries and if he wants a larger career he needs to adress those problems.

Skaters won't fix things that are not called. Yuzuru wouldn't have fixed his 3F if he didn't get e calls and fell on the Flip at Sochi.

Look at it this way, fixing technique at this age (over 17) is very tiring and might take a long time (look at Mao) to be stable again. So if judges don't call it, no skaters will fix their technical issues.

[yuzuangel]

I do blame some of the coaches a little. Shoma is talented, but he wasn't taught properly, and now it will be a struggle for him to correct his technique. It's so much harder if you don't do it right the first time. Ignoring prerotation for the moment, who has corrected their takeoff edges? Yuzu and Joanie Rochette are the only ones I can think of. Let me know if there are more.

True, the coaches shoulder some responsibility.

Looking at Mao and Kanako who were such strong natural jumpers I think about what might have been

I think the coaches shoulder almost ALL the responsibility. you don't really get to choose what your technique is like when you're 10? 15? learning a triple or a quad. you don't even get to choose your coaches most of the time. bad coaches are ruining their skaters' futures. i see 8, 9 year old girls jumping doubles that barely get off the ground with HUGE mule kicks at my local rink and i just cringe thinking about it. what if those girls want to go on to be internationally competitive one day.

[OmNom]

All this coach talk reminds me, who has coach Abe Nanami come to teach after Yuzu's departure? Is she still even a coach? (Sorry I'm new at the scene) :cry:

Part of the reason Yuzu could blossom so fruitfully under Borser is bc of Yuzu's solid techniques acquired with his previous coach, right? I think Brian has once said sth about being lucky that his students (Yuna, Yuzu etc.) all have adequate skills before coming to him. So why aren't more skaters reaching out for coach Nanami? Is there no one in Japan who could teach proper techniques??

[swanbeau]

wait, yuzu was training 4Lz as final jump last season? i didnt know that :wtf: i do believe he will add 4Lz at least in the LP though. I think what he meant by his comments about improving things like GOE, etc is that he wont JUST be focusing on the new quad, but ALSO thinking about other things to ensure a high score, not that he wont be thinking about new quad at all.

 

i've been pretty obsessed with watching his practice videos, and when he was just stroking along the rink his edge was so deep im :love: im gonna die if he started skating like that in the whole program next season. i believe he said that he can skate 'like patrick' but it takes on his stamina? i dont know how old that comment was though. But it seems his stamina has improved a lot, as he also said (he did 3 quad in 2nd half and didnt seem THAT tired). I hope he bring that level of skating skill to the actual program (without dowgrading any transitions, but who am i kidding yuzu would never downgrade his transitions :smile: )

 

I do blame some of the coaches a little. Shoma is talented, but he wasn't taught properly, and now it will be a struggle for him to correct his technique. It's so much harder if you don't do it right the first time. Ignoring prerotation for the moment, who has corrected their takeoff edges? Yuzu and Joanie Rochette are the only ones I can think of. Let me know if there are more.

True, the coaches shoulder some responsibility.

Looking at Mao and Kanako who were such strong natural jumpers I think about what might have been

Yes! I think of that often :cry:

i AM worried that this is all gonna blow up in shoma's face after Oly season. (im gonna cry if this really turns out like mao n kanako) After all, the big reason judges wont call anything is because they cant take the risk changing for Oly. Although i heard he goes to some kind of training to correct his jumps? Not that ive seen anything different... but to be fair you're right, it IS hard to correct such techniques because it's been ingrained in you since childhood.

 

i would hope that after 2 top skaters getting into similar situations, they would learn.... but i guess not.

[meoima]

I do blame some of the coaches a little. Shoma is talented, but he wasn't taught properly, and now it will be a struggle for him to correct his technique. It's so much harder if you don't do it right the first time. Ignoring prerotation for the moment, who has corrected their takeoff edges? Yuzu and Joanie Rochette are the only ones I can think of. Let me know if there are more.

True, the coaches shoulder some responsibility.

Looking at Mao and Kanako who were such strong natural jumpers I think about what might have been

I think the coaches shoulder almost ALL the responsibility. you don't really get to choose what your technique is like when you're 10? 15? learning a triple or a quad. you don't even get to choose your coaches most of the time. bad coaches are ruining their skaters' futures. i see 8, 9 year old girls jumping doubles that barely get off the ground with HUGE mule kicks at my local rink and i just cringe thinking about it. what if those girls want to go on to be internationally competitive one day.

Even top skating coaches also take their students from somewhere else. Liza wasn't taught her basics from Mishin. Yuna learned her basics from Korean coaches, not Orser.

 

I do think most coaches know what is considered good technique what's not. But how correct technique of a skater depends on how much the parents want to invest in their child. Do they want the kid to compete at bigger stage or they just practice it for fun? If for fun then who needs good technique. If the kids somehow get some triples, move them to international stage, but by then the weak technique might have become a habit.

 

How much do the skaters want to change their technique for the better? How much do the coaches want to go through to help their skaters? It's hard to say.

 

I don't think Yuzuru was lucky to get coached by mr Tsuzuki. Many of his fellow skaters at the same rink didn't reach to national level (and don't mention international level).

 

So good technique has a lot to do with:

- Natural talents

- The early coaches who pay attention to details, and even if they pay attention, if the skaters don't want to fix their technique then it's done

- How much the skaters want to adjust and improve their technique

[Dara]

Even top skating coaches also take their students from somewhere else. Liza wasn't taught her basics from Mishin. Yuna learned her basics from Korean coaches, not Orser.

Small Liza's leg wrap was awful

Mishin said he took that girl because of her amazing huge jumps = natural talent.

[Hanmgse]

Quote

don't share this belief at all, this last Shoma interview actually assures me more than ever of that.

 

It isn't even that they ignore his URs and that only rarely they give him a ! on his Lz (WTT was the exception but I doubt very much it's a beginning of a trend). It's that flip that should never, never be accepted as a flip. It is so bad that at this point it really is a merger of two or even three jumps, because as someone pointed it out on GS, at which point do we start calling this a creative entry to an Axel?

 

To have this changed, judges must start calling it. It's not going to happen just like that. Yuzuru got his Lip calls and worked on it for example. Unless the system starts punishing them, there is nothing in it for them not to continue as they have been. PCS in general has gone completely bonkers so Marina will simply package Nathan properly and that'll be that. They want it and they don't care how they get it, and why should they? Do you really think anyone but a few skating fanatics will care?

Quote

'm talking more of a general improvement as skaters. Shoma won't be remembered for his technical side but he can try to balance both sides of his skating since he is much better in PCS. And even if judges don't call out incorrect technique that doesn't mean he can't improve by his own will, specially since bad technique means also more injuries and if he wants a larger career he needs to adress those problems.

 

Quote

Fixing technique is hard though....and leads to injuries while you're doing it (i.e. Satoko). It also leads to a couple seasons of inconsistency while you're between techniques. So I think skaters will only do it if they're forced to (Mao and Yuzuru's wrong edge problems). Sometimes they won't even try. Isn't there a saying that it takes 10k tries to learn a jump and 40k tries to relearn it?

So it might be worse if he tried to correct his technique? Because honestly every time he lands a jump I cry for his knees .

[yuzuangel]

Even top skating coaches also take their students from somewhere else. Liza wasn't taught her basics from Mishin. Yuna learned her basics from Korean coaches, not Orser.

 

I do think most coaches know what is considered good technique what's not. But how correct technique of a skater depends on how much the parents want to invest in their child. Do they want the kid to compete at bigger stage or they just practice it for fun? If for fun then who needs good technique. If the kids somehow get some triples, move them to international stage, but by then the weak technique might have become a habit.

 

How much do the skaters want to change their technique for the better? How much do the coaches want to go through to help their skaters? It's hard to say.

 

I don't think Yuzuru was lucky to get coached by mr Tsuzuki. Many of his fellow skaters at the same rink didn't reach to national level (and don't mention international level).

 

So good technique has a lot to do with:

- Natural talents

- The early coaches who pay attention to details, and even if they pay attention, if the skaters don't want to fix their technique then it's done

- How much the skaters want to adjust and improve their technique

 

Yeah, you are right. I'm sure coaches try to teach good technique first and if all else fails, then they give up/relax on technique a little so the skater gets progress.

[meoima]

Hanmgse said:

So it might be worse if he tried to correct his technique? Because honestly every time he lands a jump I cry for his knees .

It will be worse for a while when you try to relearn your technique. Mao was sorta lucky that during the time she relearned her technique, JSF had no one else but Miki, so Mao still got sent to WC despite 2-3 years of struggle.

Shoma technically does not have true toe jumps. All his toe jumps are edge jumps in disguise.

I am not surprised if Shoma fails all his Lutz and Flip for 2 years if he tries to fix his technique. And it's not even sure that he can fix it.

 

The issue with Shoma's technique is that, had he tried to fix it 2-3 seasons ago it would be better a bit by now. But he and his team decided to build tower on weak foundations so... they're getting huge scores for now but with weak foundations you never know when will it crash.

[ShiroKJ]

You have to give Mao :goe: for her guts and she did land a clean, round, clear outside edge 3Lz this season so :s_drinks

[beki]

You have to give Mao :goe: for her guts and she did land a clean, round, clear outside edge 3Lz this season so :s_drinks

Much like Yuzu, she deserves respect for trying to meet her own standards. A brave woman with integrity.

[Hanmgse]

meoima said:

Hanmgse said:

So it might be worse if he tried to correct his technique? Because honestly every time he lands a jump I cry for his knees .

It will be worse for a while when you try to relearn your technique. Mao was sorta lucky that during the time she relearned her technique, JSF had no one else but Miki, so Mao still got sent to WC despite 2-3 years of struggle.

Shoma technically does not have true toe jumps. All his toe jumps are edge jumps in disguise.

I am not surprised if Shoma fails all his Lutz and Flip for 2 years if he tries to fix his technique. And it's not even sure that he can fix it.

 

The issue with Shoma's technique is that, had he tried to fix it 2-3 seasons ago it would be better a bit by now. But he and his team decided to build tower on weak foundations so... they're getting huge scores for now but with weak foundations you never know when will it crash.

I see, so at the end it's not really worth it since judges won't punish you and you can get the points. Hopefully he won't have health issues later.

[Altie]

I don't think Yuzuru was lucky to get coached by mr Tsuzuki. Many of his fellow skaters at the same rink didn't reach to national level (and don't mention international level).

 

He mentioned in aoi Hono that he was the only young male skater who didn't give up on skater after Sendai Ice rink was closed because of financial poblem... I sometimes wonder if there would have been more skaters from Sendai if their rink hadn't been closed twice ? In any case, they weren't many to begin with...

 

 

As for Shoma... I'm really mad at judges for never calling his jumps. In the long term, it doesn't serve him well at all - for his health (ouch his knees !!!), for his reputation among other skaters (and fs fans), and for posterity. He's lucky Yuzu is such a wise and friendly guy and don't resent him for the scores he gets, I know I wouldn't be able to hide my bitterness if I was in his place. :devil:

And that's a shame, because he IS talented. He oozes charisma on ice. But if doesn't correct his jumps there will always be a Sword of Damocles above his scores... and his health.

[Mitya]

You have to give Mao :goe: for her guts and she did land a clean, round, clear outside edge 3Lz this season so :s_drinks

 

Mao Asada deserves all respects for her daring and input in FS. She worked so hard on her techniques and SS, was keeping try to do 3A all the time even if it cost her medals sometimes. I'm missing those days, an amazing rivalry between her and Kim. And agree with she and Yuzuru somehow close in that point, always want to do more than their best and don't want take and move on with what they have.

 

But Shoma is risking to leave his jump skills that way. It wasn't noticed before but it could be someday, maybe some very important day. And it's not just about jumps. His spins bothering me even more.