General Skating Chat

[asiacheetah]

9 hours ago, SSS said:

If that happens, some fed will inflate his score like rocket ...No...Light speed...From beginning 

 

Yuzu is the only one who is expected to be perfect/clean. Shoma and Nathan can do whatever they want to increase the BV. Upgrade at the beginning or in the middle. They don't have that pressure.  they just to be lucky enough to land them all and their score will be inflated...

 

I think Yuzu is practicing/aiming 5 quad with Lz run through ... Hopefully...

I'm hoping that now the judges are spoiled by all the hard quads and 4-6 quad programs, they will stop being overly impressed by the jump to the point of awarding them candies right and left in the PCS. I find the more quads jumped, the more skating skills and performance suffers (especially in the case of Nathan).

[asiacheetah]

23 hours ago, SSS said:

Looking at the table now...156.42

(Shoma can be 10 points higher, Nathan 20...

Wait Shoma has a Quad Lutz? How's that possible? His triple Lutz is problematic.

[SSS]

27 minutes ago, asiacheetah said:

I'm hoping that now the judges are spoiled by all the hard quads and 4-6 quad programs, they will stop being overly impressed by the jump to the point of awarding them candies right and left in the PCS. I find the more quads jumped, the more skating skills and performance suffers (especially in the case of Nathan).

Nathan's case is if he lands them all, he has at least 90...PCS up like rocket...

18 minutes ago, asiacheetah said:

Wait Shoma has a Quad Lutz? How's that possible? His triple Lutz is problematic.

He wants to add it...He just needs to call it 4lz...

[Neenah]

After the open practice and all that was said about the 4Lz and Yuzu's programs and training I remembered what  Brian said in his book about Yuzu and the 4L

 

Quote

Essentially, during off season, it is important to practice techniques for skating, spins, steps and so forth, and the scores won’t increase without training the program in its entirety. As it is, successfully landing the quad loop alone––the scores won’t go up. I thought this had become a situation like a youngster who didn’t understand how scoring worked, crushingly defeated even though he’d landed quads. As a coach, I felt like I had a lot I wanted to say.

 

and about the 4 quad free program

Quote

If it were according to my strategy, to accomplish “2 in short, 4 in free,” I would begin with mastering the program [choreography] in its entirety. Skating, transitions, steps…I would perfect the elements outside of jumps first. That way, instead of banking on jumping quad after quad, [we] focus on executing quads that are high in quality and increase the number of quads––2, 3, and 4––throughout the season. This way is actually quicker. 

 

What is happening now is probably Brians strategy in action.

[singcarcom]

On 8/9/2017 at 8:39 AM, Neenah said:

I posted this in the general chat and now bringing it here since you are discussion the 4Lz

 

Yuzuru has high standards for his jumps, and I don't want him to compromise his ideals just for a boost in BV.. I much prefer his approach when adding jumps which makes sure that the jump, its entry, and exit are all integrated into the program. 

 

If the 4Lz does not satisfy him, he would not include it, and I am 100% behind him in that decision.

 

Agree! Besides being a superb athelete, Yuzu is also very intelligent! So I trust him with his decisions....and being the Trollzuru, he's always surprising us so I'll stop speculating and just enjoy his performances.

 

On 8/9/2017 at 10:03 AM, PomeloPooh said:

 

I now feel unimpressed by 6 quads, after all the discussion of the possibility of 7 

"just put on as hard a program as I can" Different strategies then.Though I can't help saying that... he's got the privilege to do it without being hurt partly because of his federation. 

 

I find it strange when they mentioned that a 6 quad fs is new, cos Nathan already attempted it. Tbh, I'm not fond of Nathan's strategy because difficulty does not equate quality. I like Yuzu's approach more where he will never sacrifice quality for a higher BV. Despite having a much higher BV, Nathan's sp never came close to beating Yuzu's WR. His FS is still pretty empty because his stamina is not strong enough for a 6 quad fs yet.

 

On 8/9/2017 at 10:07 AM, xeyra said:

 

I would like to remind people that Nathan's issues at Worlds were partly due to his boot problems. It's impossible to know what would have happened if he hadn't those issues and if he could manage that 6-quad program, but I wouldn't put it past him. 

 

I don't like it when people keep bringing up his boot problems. I contrast it with how Yuzu refuses to put the blame on his injuries when he didn't skate well. It's as he says, that he doesn't want to 'make excuses'; if he could fully rotate his jumps with that much injuries during COC 2014, his subsequent poor performances are no excuses. 

Of course, boot problems or injuries do affect a skater's condition, but there's too many ifs. Nathan didn't skate well during Worlds because of boot problems; Javi didn't skate well during fs because ....., Patrick didn't skate clean because..., Yuzu messed up his SP because of....   There's so much going on at competitions and every skaters are facing challenges of their own.  And focusing on these external factors does not help the skater improve. If Nathan can't skate clean despite having good boots, is it the ice's fault? Or is the sound system poor? Or is the lighting distracting?  At some point, you have to acknowledge that it all goes down to the skater and his mental strength.

[Danibellerika]

I think Nate has good mental strength actually, especially after 4CC where he threw down the skate he did after Yuzu's gutsy performance. In such a sport like this that requires insane amount of precision, good equipment is essential. I can give the skaters the benefit of the doubt occasionally, but not if it's a chronic issue. I'm working with the mindset that Nate will at least rotate everything he tries. 

[singcarcom]

2 hours ago, Danibellerika said:

I think Nate has good mental strength actually, especially after 4CC where he threw down the skate he did after Yuzu's gutsy performance. In such a sport like this that requires insane amount of precision, good equipment is essential. I can give the skaters the benefit of the doubt occasionally, but not if it's a chronic issue. I'm working with the mindset that Nate will at least rotate everything he tries. 

 

I guess I wasn't being clear. I didn't mean to say that Nathan doesn't have good mental strength, in fact, I would argue that the top 6 men all have incredible mental strength. 

 

I feel that at the competition, there are a lot of factors affecting a skater's performance - physical state, mental state, equipment, etc....And I'm personally not a fan when people attribute poor performances to mainly one factor. Just my personal opinion, but I see no meaning in trying to justify someone's loss, even for Yuzu. For example, I believe he deserves to have won worlds 2015 and 2016 as well, but I will not argue that he could have won because such an argument is meaningless. It's a fact that he got silvers, and those were kuyashii moments, but you move on and grow stronger.

[SparkleSalad]

Someone spirited away my ballet slippers from the dressing room at the last concert I did and I had to slip and slide all over the place dance in stockings. I have much sympathy but you know, good outcome >_>

[xeyra]

6 hours ago, singcarcom said:

I don't like it when people keep bringing up his boot problems. I contrast it with how Yuzu refuses to put the blame on his injuries when he didn't skate well. It's as he says, that he doesn't want to 'make excuses'; if he could fully rotate his jumps with that much injuries during COC 2014, his subsequent poor performances are no excuses. 

Of course, boot problems or injuries do affect a skater's condition, but there's too many ifs. Nathan didn't skate well during Worlds because of boot problems; Javi didn't skate well during fs because ....., Patrick didn't skate clean because..., Yuzu messed up his SP because of....   There's so much going on at competitions and every skaters are facing challenges of their own.  And focusing on these external factors does not help the skater improve. If Nathan can't skate clean despite having good boots, is it the ice's fault? Or is the sound system poor? Or is the lighting distracting?  At some point, you have to acknowledge that it all goes down to the skater and his mental strength.

 

I understand that people like Yuzu don't tend to ever provide excuses for when they do badly, be it injury or otherwise. I actually prefer it too. In Nathan's case, he did complain about his boots and did say the pressure must have gotten to him, and honestly there already was a big narrative about it from the USA media anyway even prior to Worlds. The thing is, you could see the moment when he fell on that 4Lz that something was wrong with his boots, since he had to check them when he got up, and this made him change his planned layout on the spot and possibly not feel as confident as he might have. As such, we don't know what would have happened if he hadn't had that shift in confidence due to his boot problems and if he'd have managed to land (not necessarily particularly cleanly) all his planned jumps (the 2 4Lz and the 2 4F) otherwise. That's all I was saying. 

[xeyra]

 

Javi will include 4Lo finally, it seems.

 

 

So this is the Marca page where Javi mentions including the 4Lo. The google translated version of the blog who translated it from Spanish to Japanese (LOL) doesn't mention if he's doing 3 or 4 quads, only 3 different quads. But also says he's introducing a 3 triple combo. So 3Lz3T3Lo has really come, I wonder? 

 

Let's see the differences between a 3 quad layout with 3 different quads and two 3T combos and two 3As vs one with 4 quads and two 3As, while using the 3 triple combo.

 

FERNANDEZ	47.75	4T3T 4S // 3A	100.92	4Lo 4S3T 3A // 4T 3A2T 3Lz3T3Lo 3F 3S	148.67
			104.63	4Lo 4S2T 3A // 4S 4T 3A2T 3Lz3T3Lo 3F	152.38

 

This is all speculative, since we don't really know order of elements. He could potentially place both 3As in the second half and move a lower BV jump to his third jumping pass (like the 3F that gave him so much trouble last season, but that wouldn't give him much of a BV difference anyway).

 

This 3Lz combo idea seems mad, though, but it's one I've seen him mention before Worlds. 

[Lunna]

15 минут назад, xeyra сказал:

So this is the Marca page where Javi mentions including the 4Lo.

I would be surprised if he didn't really. It's interesting to see will he have 3 or 4 quads. He can start season with 3 and then go with 4, when he's in good condition his 4T and 4S are quite stable. Potentially his jumps have enough power to pull off 3 triple combo. I wonder if Yuzu ever thought about 3 triple combo but may be then his flow from the last jump will struggle too much.

[xeyra]

Just now, Lunna said:

I would be surprised if he didn't really. It's interesting to see will he have 3 or 4 quads. He can start season with 3 and then go with 4, when he's in good condition his 4T and 4S are quite stable. Potentially his jumps have enough power to pull off 3 triple combo. I wonder if Yuzu ever thought about 3 triple combo but may be then his flow from the last jump too much.

 

He tried 4T3T3Lo and 4S3T3Lo at GPF gala practice last season. The 3Lo tended to be a bit of an issue, in terms of landing edge flow, and he tended to UR it a bit. So it's not an easy combo to do. Unless you're named Nobunari Oda. 

[Lunna]

11 минут назад, xeyra сказал:

 

He tried 4T3T3Lo and 4S3T3Lo at GPF gala practice last season. The 3Lo tended to be a bit of an issue, in terms of landing edge flow, and he tended to UR it a bit. So it's not an easy combo to do. Unless you're named Nobunari Oda. 

Yeah, I saw that he tends to UR those, so I thought more about triple combo with triples, maybe 3A3T3Lo?

[xeyra]

2 minutes ago, Lunna said:

Yeah, I saw that he tends to UR those, so I thought more about triple combo with triples, maybe 3A3T3Lo?

 

That's just an unnecessarily difficult combo to do, though, since to use the 3T on the 3A (or another triple) he's taking it out from a quad. And a 4-3 combo looks better on the GOE than a 4-2 combo. Plus the risk of UR'ing the 3Lo at the end.

[Lunna]

5 минут назад, xeyra сказал:

 

That's just an unnecessarily difficult combo to do, though, since to use the 3T on the 3A (or another triple) he's taking it out from a quad. Plus the risk of UR'ing the 3Lo at the end. And a 4-3 combo looks better on the GOE than a 4-2 combo. 

I don't really remember the differences in GOEs for 4-2 and 4-3 (anyway it can't be more then 2 points and 3Lo is 5 points). But yeah the risk of UR is too much that's why I think he doesn't go for it.