General Skating Chat

[gladi]

22 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

You could do a triple combo with two Loops though. Very rare but that is doable. 

Zagi did a 3Lz-3Lo-3Lo and way back, Lisa N did a 3Lo-3Lo-3Lo, Plushenko played with some of those, I'd have to go look but I believe we had a 3T–3T–3Lo–2Lo at one of the Galas at some point. Absolute murder on the hips too.

 

That does seem terrible for the hips. Alina didn't use that in competition though, did she? Although, her 3Lz-3Lo-3Lo reminds me of Javi's super combinacion. ^_^ That was 3Lz+3T+3Lo though, I believe. I wonder if it'll come out this season. 

 

If you find a clip of Plushy doing that, can you share?

[Yatagarasu]

7 minutes ago, gladi said:

 

That does seem terrible for the hips. Alina didn't use that in competition though, did she? Although, her 3Lz-3Lo-3Lo reminds me of Javi's super combinacion. ^_^ That was 3Lz+3T+3Lo though, I believe. I wonder if it'll come out this season. 

 

If you find a clip of Plushy doing that, can you share?

 

Nope, she'd Zayak. She does 2x3F and 2x3Lz but probably for the best. 
I'd forgotten about that plan Javi had. I am not sure, I don't think he'd get much from it, especially if he does add the 4Lo. Talking about Plushy, he could do one of his combos, 4T–3T–3Lo, now that was something we don't really see any more.

 

Ask and you shall receive. And no, I'm not giving you the time-stamp so that you sit through it as I'm sure you've not seen it and it's definitely worth it! (it's from his home library btw)

 

 

[kaeryth]

3 hours ago, Yatagarasu said:

Ask and you shall receive. And no, I'm not giving you the time-stamp so that you sit through it as I'm sure you've not seen it and it's definitely worth it! (it's from his home library btw)

 

 

I watched this muted because I'm at work (also, I hate the Sex Bomb song) and his ability to land his jumps was really amazing.

[kaeryth]

For anyone wanting a more in depth explanation of turns & steps there's a good post by the-real-xmonster of tumblr.

Part 1: twizzle, bracket, loop, counter, rocker, and three-turn. 

Part 2: toe step, chassé, mohawk, choctaw, change of edge, and cross roll.

 

There also good explanations of jumps and spins.

 

Personal self-deprecation: I'm absolutely terrible at learning/understanding/identifying steps. So I'm just looking at that tumblr post all the time trying to soak it in...

[AsteroidB-612]

Hey guys! I saw an update on Shoma's layout for FS that he did for his 7/17 ice show.

it's 3A 4Lo 3A // 4F 4T 4T 3A1Lo3F 3S....I wonder if this indicates that he is gonna backload 3 quads and challenge a 5 quad if he can replace the first 3A with a 4Lz that would make his layout no.3 or 4(back in page 33 of this thread) seem more likely? Those ones would total his Bv to 164.43 & 166.25 and make @xeyra 's fist calculation of his expected added total of BV + GOE+PCS of 330.82(option 2 in "chart of reality")  more likely? 

In this case I think Yuzu might be fired up to add the 4Lz more haha 

[katonice]

It seems there's been an update to the FaOI Niigata broadcast schedule.

Yuzu's performance, including his encore, both be broadcast on the 22nd July.

Papadakis/Cizeron's performance will still be broadcast on Aug 12.

 

[kaeryth]

All of Yuzu's 3A in Let's Go Crazy + GOEs

 

 

[AsteroidB-612]

54 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

All of Yuzu's 3A in Let's Go Crazy + GOEs

 

 

Oh wow, this is the compilation clip that I didn't know I need but am now attached to and looping like crazy! (The high kick 3A and the Zusa sequenece is the highlight of that SP for me!)

 

And looking at this... I think his world and WTT 3A definitely Deserves a +3.00 GOE

 

[SparkleSalad]

1 minute ago, AsteroidB-612 said:

Oh wow, this is the compilation clip that I didn't know I need but am now attached to and looping like crazy! (The high kick 3A and the Zusa sequenece is the highlight of that SP for me!)

 

And looking at this... I think his world and WTT 3A definitely Deserves a +3.00 GOE

 

 

How he even all the things?! 

[Xen]

4 Lz might take less time to stablize than the 4 Loop. Personal opinion warning (and a bit of skating technicals warning too):

- The difficulty of the loop jump is that it is essentially a power backwards 3 turn when you enter. 3 Turns normally require you to straighten up your leg a bit and shift your weight to the heel, to enable the turn (before pressing down and shifting to the front for gliding again). However, all edge jumps, including axel, require a part where you essentially spring up (straighten leg) and shift your weight towards the bottom 2 picks of your toe pick to get the lift. If you add in the arm swing (which actually feels opposite of what I do for my backturns), your entire body when doing the lift for the loop is somewhat against what you actually do for a back 3 turn. This is what makes the entry of the loop, and the  jump itself, hard and slightly hard to control.  You're also less able to rely on speed, so usually the loop (in my opinion) has the lowest height and distance of all the jumps, which makes it harder to get the airtime necessary to do the rotations.

- The salchow as a jump also faces this problem, but it's somewhat mitigated by the free leg swinging up into the jump. This way you get to use the free leg more for the lift height and distance, and it balances your body a bit more. From my experience, it's harder to mess up a salchow entry lift. 

- All toe assisted jumps use the picking leg as a pole vault to vault up. Of all the toe jumps, I think the flip and lutz probably have the most height and distance (flip especially) since the transitions are suppose to help you take advantage of the speed and momentum you get going into the jump. His WTT 4 lz looks overrotated, hence why his landing was scratchy, but that might be  better than popping and unsure entries for the loop. 

 

Another thing I want to add, but this is purely theoretical. In theory, I find Yuzuru a very efficient jumper. Efficient as in his quick entries generally is the best method to efficiently generate height and distance for his jumps (look at his lutzes). Otherwise the long glide that other skaters do, theoretically detract from the power in the lift, that  you generate from gliding speed (since the speed would decrease the longer you hold the edge). This is also why I'm really puzzled by Shoma's flip, since his left leg pre-rotation would theoretically detract from his jump's power- I'm surprised he manages to lift off at all actually. 

 

Forgot who asked about axels and axel entry types. But a rinkmate who is going to work on axels soon, said that he's only aware of a russian style and a japanese style of axel entry. I'll try to poke him a bit more about this, but I'm not sure how much variation there is on axel entry. It's all a skid-based entry, seems to be a lift off speed/quickness issue for how Yuzuru seems more “springy" in his axels. 

[yuzuangel]

14 minutes ago, Xen said:

It's all a skid-based entry

I remember Brian saying that Yuzu uses an edge-based Axel entry and Javi uses a skid-based entry. Do you know what this means? I don't have any idea how you would do an axel off a skid.

[xeyra]

 

6 hours ago, AsteroidB-612 said:

Hey guys! I saw an update on Shoma's layout for FS that he did for his 7/17 ice show.

it's 3A 4Lo 3A // 4F 4T 4T 3A1Lo3F 3S....I wonder if this indicates that he is gonna backload 3 quads and challenge a 5 quad if he can replace the first 3A with a 4Lz that would make his layout no.3 or 4(back in page 33 of this thread) seem more likely? Those ones would total his Bv to 164.43 & 166.25 and make @xeyra 's fist calculation of his expected added total of BV + GOE+PCS of 330.82(option 2 in "chart of reality")  more likely? 

In this case I think Yuzu might be fired up to add the 4Lz more haha 

 

Yeah, basically, this is what I expect Shoma to be going for, plus an alternative with two 4Fs for perspective, though I'm not sure he'd risk two 4Fs in the second half:

 

SKATER	SP BV	LAYOUT	FS BV	LAYOUT*	TOTAL BV
UNO	51.31	4F // 4T3T 3A	112.69	4Lz 4Lo 3A3T // 4F 4T2T 4T 3A1Lo3F 3S	164.00
			114.89	4Lz 4Lo 3A3T // 4F 4F2T 4T 3A1Lo3F 3S	166.20

 

From what I've read and discussed, it doesn't make sense for him to do a solo 3A when his 3A3T combo garners so many GOE, so he'll probably move that combo to the first half. I thought initially he might not and do all his combos in the second half, but having 3 quads there is already risky enough and having 2 combos on quads would be even harder, so 3A3T in the first half might be his choice. This doesn't mean he might not change his mind halfway through the season.

 

As for the 330ish total, that'll depend a lot on his 4Lz, and whether it a) is rotated and not UR'ed; b) doesn't get an edge call, because that will lower his GOEs and BV. And how much this layout will tax his stamina by the second half. But the same applies to Yuzu if he tries a 4Lz layout with 5 quads, especially since Yuzu would definitely do all his combos in the second half.

 

Also, and to be honest, I trust Shoma to land his jumps, even if shakily and scarily, more than I trust Yuzu not to pop something.  I've been traumatized when doing statistics on Yuzu's popstar status. 

 

This, of course, if the 4Lz is ready for Shoma, otherwise I wonder if he won't risk the 4Lo // 4F3T 3A SP layout and go for the WTT 2017 4-quad FS with 2 4Fs. That would be about 160.55 BV total. 

 

Comparatively, here are Yuzu's BV possibilities again (not including H&L's layout because I doubt he won't upgrade something):

 

SKATER	SP BV	LAYOUT	FS BV	LAYOUT*	TOTAL BV
HANYU	51.01	4Lo // 3A 4T3T	105.41	4Lo 4S 3F // 4S3T 4T 4T2T 3A1Lo3S 3Lz	156.42
			109.83	4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A3T 3A1Lo3S 3Lz	160.84
			111.26	4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A2T 4T1Lo3S 3A	162.27

 

So Yuzu will probably never have higher BV than Shoma (unless he decides to throw a 4Lz at his SP too, but then nothing guarantees Shoma won't try 4Lo in his either) and his GOE/PCS advantage is smaller with Shoma than with Nathan. This is not meant to scare anyone, by the way. Yuzu didn't have higher BV than Shoma by the second half of the season either and we know how Worlds went. But if Shoma does add a 4Lz, it is more likely for Yuzu to push himself to add it too, to tighten the gap. The 4Lz would be a risky element for both of them, though, so I think in this 'fight', the winner will be whoever stabilizes it with better quality first (or doesn't get UR/edge calls).

And doesn't pop it. 

 

Of course, if they screw up too much trying to one-up each other, Nathan will just sweep in for the win. 

[Xen]

1 minute ago, yuzuangel said:

I remember Brian saying that Yuzu uses an edge-based Axel entry and Javi uses a skid-based entry. Do you know what this means? I don't have any idea how you would do an axel off a skid.

Well the skid based entry is the one I heard mentioned while learning as a kid in the US. Actually I don't get it that much since I've yet to learn Axels yet. So again, theoretically, I'd refer to this post from Fay: 

 

Specifically this section: "Another problematic point of the Axel is a lift-off into the jump from the entry trajectory, which can be carried out either through a skid or through a toe-pick.I do not train my athletes specifically for either of these movements, as I proceed from the proposition that skaters must find for themselves the method convenient for them. But I depend on their skating skills, since when going into an Axel, athletes make a 3turn through the toe-pick. So you need to make sure that the entry curve of lobe in the waltz jump and in the Axel is not straight or only slightly curvy, it should be a true curve of lobe the way it should be in a 3turn. At its end, the skater has to push off the ice so that the lobe itself creates a rotational motion."

 

Thankfully it's kind of lunch break, so I can look. I went ahead and found a youtube vid of Javi's 3A with a slow-mo section. And the difference between his and Yuzu's 3A entries is now clearer. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jowd4uGc8hg Here for reference. 

- Javi's skid-based entry: his axel take off point, he's still on his blade, the rocker portion. He does not really have the toepicks as the last part of the blade leaving the ice. In fact his entire foot appears relatively flat when he leaves the ice. You can tell kind of from the giant spray of ice that goes up when he takes off.  The skid controls the edge and allows Javi to start the transfer of the weight to his right leg for rotations. 

 

Yuzuru's the one I've been looking at for a longer time. As reference: https://youtu.be/Fu7zyt7f9fc One of his no speed axels. If you look at the take off point of Yuzuru's axels, he doesn't have that giant spray of ice. In his axels, the last point of contact are the the bottom topicks, as his foot is rather straight when he takes off. So I'm guessing the edge based take off that Brian mentions is the toe-pick take off that Viktor refers to. 

 

As for which one is more effective/efficient....no idea here. I lean towards the toe/edge one personally, since I find it gives me a greater spring up. And since both my salchow and loop have the toepick leaving last during the spring-up, it's easier for me to remember. 

 

[yuzuangel]

5 minutes ago, Xen said:

-whole post-

 

Wow thank you. The slowmos really helped, I understand it now. I was always told to do the toe/edge (Yuzu's) entry into a waltz jump/axel (although I haven't gotten there yet) and so I didn't really know you could do it the other way too. TBH the toe/edge version looks more elegant 

[Xen]

6 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

 

Wow thank you. The slowmos really helped, I understand it now. I was always told to do the toe/edge (Yuzu's) entry into a waltz jump/axel (although I haven't gotten there yet) and so I didn't really know you could do it the other way too. TBH the toe/edge version looks more elegant 

I actually think this entry is the harder one, since you are rotating up to your toepicks, it feels unatural, and if your free leg swings out (rather than up), you can throw off the jump. But it could be more efficient, since you get the full extension of your leg plus feet for the spring up.