General Skating Chat

[Neenah]

36 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

It's quite simple. We have non-judged sports where it's very clear cut who wins. We have sports which aren't wholly dependent on judges for points but there are referees who determine whether or not rules have been followed or if a team deserves points or if a point is valid. And then, we have judged sports where the scores are wholly determined by judges but made a bit more objective in recent years with a clear cut scoring system based on elements performed. Now for the third category, which figure skating has, technical elements all have clear rules under which they should be scored but it's the big technical elements (and when they are performed) that really give a figure skater the edge. Although what sets Hanyu apart is the way he gives importance to all elements instead of simply the jumps, and even though being a complete skater has always been his ultimate goal, there has been a time when he was wholly focused on just the jumps. He wouldn't be the far and away champion he is today without them. Ice dancing obviously does not have that, and so depends on more subtle elements.

 

Back during the 6.0 era, when jumps didn't have their own scores and everything was dependent on the judges, the evolution, while it happened, came about slower and development of big technical elements that would get judges on a skater's side seemed stuck on triples because skaters didn't see the point in pushing the quad boundaries seeing as a fall back then is a death sentence to their contention chances. Quads back then were more of a thing to see who could do it. And for the longest time, that was all it was, even after the initial shift from the 6.0 system to the IJS one which, albeit with a few revisions, is still going strong today. After the initial transition, there were more skaters jumping quads, sure, and there was Plushenko pushing for them but he was by and large alone as most others were still playing it safe. But the scores were there for their taking if they were willing to risk it. And even so,  it didn't always pay off (see men's individual Olympics results circa 2010). That's how I came to realize that figure skating is as much a sport as other sports out there, if not more so.

 

Ice dancing is different. With it being ultimately a dance, it does not require big technical elements because then it would no longer be dance but a full-on sport*. It's all about basics and prowess of a more subtle nature. So you have a way to score them but if you have a few teams who are very close in skill to one another, which would happen in something that doesn't get big obvious developments but only subtle ones, and if one team is unbeaten at one thing, another one would sure to be able to do another thing better than the rest, the technical scoring wouldn't be amply huge to give one the edge over the other. So it'll have to fall back on which team the judges simply like better, either on that day or everyday (ie: based on bias.)

 

*I have nothing against ID being judged and awarded as a sport. In fact, I think it's a step in the right direction that they included it as a separate discipline, something I believe is actually pretty recent. But this is why it baffles me why other dances which are subject to more or less the same logic and rules when it comes to judging didn't get the same treatment. And until they do, ID will remain an anomaly to me.

 

@Lyyli (sorry I left out quoting you cos this post is already overly long. It didn't need to look it too >_<)

 

Singles and pairs have to be more than ID,  imo, because the ideal for those disciplines is the same kind of flow and smoothness ID has but WITH big technical elements.

 

 

Yeah, in a way it is. But say what you want about Tutberidze and her baby jumping androids, the Russians have really been stepping up their game and injecting this discipline with the kind of fire it should have. There's always been a potential for it because when a technically superior (and almost always younger) skater came along in the past who managed to skate clean, the judges have proven to have ultimately preferred  the one who showed the more impressive athletic prowess. That's how Lipinski, Sotnikova and Zagitova won. And had Asada not made that mistake she did in Vancouver, she may very well have won over Kim.

 

In the same vein, it is also why Chen was able to win over Hanyu in last year's 4CC  and this year's FS segment at the Olys. And the reason for his explosive scores that made him the reigning world champion whose combined total score is second only to Hanyu, with less than 10 points. Hanyu knew what he was doing when he kept pushing for those quads last quarter when everyone was telling him he didn't need them. He was born hardheaded for a reason. And while he ultimately didn't need them to win his second OGM, he definitely needed them on hand because if Chen wasn't so cowed by the pressure and having to skate after his explosive performance, had he skated his SP clean, you can bet Hanyu's going to bring out his big guns in the FS, regardless of how Chen does in it (he might very well have succumbed to pressure then being that close to the OGM). That kind of strategizing and sporting warfare isn't something we'll ever get to see in a sport like ID. You see a lot of tension between teams, sure, but I think that has a lot to do with so many things being out of their hands, and there being no telling who would win even if they skated their best.

ID is a sport based on skill more than athleticism, which I personally think is fine. I can see why you have a problem with it but you are probably overthinking the matter a bit. It is a sport because the ISU and IOC (I think) made it so by devising rules and a scoring system that fits with other Olympic sports. This is how thing happen everywhere, you get the authority on the matter to say you fit something and it is accepted that you do. Also, ID uses skills and techniques shared with other sports (singles and pairs), so it does have more claim on being a sport than other dances. 

 

I am personally happy that it is considered an Olympic sport because it means we get to see those high level competitions and teams. ID is a beautiful sport and I would be really sad to see it disappear or be neglected because it is no longer considered important like the other disciplines. 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

10 分, Neenahさんが言いました:

ID is a sport based on skill more than athleticism, which I personally think is fine. I can see why you have a problem with it but you are probably overthinking the matter a bit. It is a sport because the ISU and IOC (I think) made it so by devising rules and a scoring system that fits with other Olympic sports. This is how thing happen everywhere, you get the authority on the matter to say you fit something and it is accepted that you do. Also, ID uses skills and techniques shared with other sports (singles and pairs), so it does have more claim on being a sport than other dances. 

 

I am personally happy that it is considered an Olympic sport because it means we get to see those high level competitions and teams. ID is a beautiful sport and I would be really sad to see it disappear or be neglected because it is no longer considered important like the other disciplines. 

 

I wouldn't say I have a problem with it per se. I was merely puzzled as to why, as a dance it gets sanctioned as a sport while other dances are still stuck in their own leagues. And while I may be overthinking it, I don't think what I'm thinking is invalid either. Maybe you haven't been reading what I wrote properly, which frankly I can't say I blame you given that my explanations can get pretty long, I don't want it to disappear either, cos like I said, I thought it was good that it got included. I just also also happen to think that it'd be nice if other dances get included too. Because if ID can, why not them? It's not like they are any less athletic than ID. I noticed that no one but @hoodie axel really addressed this one point I've been trying to make. 

[Neenah]

7 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

I wouldn't say I have a problem with it per se. I was merely puzzled as to why, as a dance it gets sanctioned as a sport while other dances are still stuck in their own leagues. And while I may be overthinking it, I don't think what I'm thinking is invalid either. Maybe you haven't been reading what I wrote properly, which frankly I can't say I blame you given that my explanations can get pretty long, I don't want it to disappear either, cos like I said, I thought it was good that it got included. I just also also happen to think that it'd be nice if other dances get included too. Because if ID can, why not them? It's not like they are any less athletic than ID. I noticed that no one but @hoodie axel really addressed this one point I've been trying to make. 

I did actually mention this is my  post. Unlike other dances, ID shares aspects of it (the skating part) with other sports (singles and paris) so while it is dancing on ice, it is also skating on ice. Unless you consider only jumps, twists, and throws to be athletic in FS. ID is both dance and sport by its very nature, which is not something other dances can claim. 

Do we know if other dances actually want to be an Olympic sport? Because we know that the ISU did things in the rules and competitions specifically to have ID included as a sport. If the other dance displances don't want to be included then maybe that is the reason they are not  

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

 

7 分, Neenahさんが言いました:

I did actually mention this is my  post. Unlike other dances, ID shares aspects of it (the skating part) with other sports (singles and paris) so while it is dancing on ice, it is also skating on ice. Unless you consider only jumps, twists, and throws to be athletic in FS. ID is both dance and sport by its very nature, which is not something other dances can claim. 

Do we know if other dances actually want to be an Olympic sport? Because we know that the ISU did things in the rules and competitions specifically to have ID included as a sport. If the other dance displances don't want to be included then maybe that is the reason they are not  

 

You did? I guess I'm must not have have read between the lines deep enough then. Sorry about that. Still, I find it hard to fathom that they'll say not to an Olympic medal but if they are as haughty as you are implying them to be, then maybe they don't deserve to be.

 

But I guess what you said about ID having more of a claim as being included as a sport due to their shared elements with other disciplines than others clears up a bit of my befuddlement. Not all of it, mind, but enough. Because it *is* due to these shared elements that some argue that figure skating as a whole is more dance than sport. And ice skating skills all have the same basis, no matter the discipline. But thanks for clearing things a bit for me. 

[Neenah]

5 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

 

You did? I guess I'm must not have have read between the lines deep enough then. Sorry about that. Still, I find it hard to fathom that they'll say not to an Olympic medal but if they are as haughty as you are implying them to be, then maybe they don't deserve to be.

 

But I guess what you said about ID having more of a claim as being included as a sport due to their shared elements with other disciplines than others clears up a bit of my befuddlement. Not all of it, mind, but enough. Because it *is* due to these shared elements that some argue that figure skating as a whole is more dance than sport. And ice skating skills all have the same basis, no matter the discipline. But thanks for clearing things a bit for me. 

Glad that helped because I wasn't sure I was explaining myself well 

 

Just one more thing, I m not implying that the others are haughty or anything. I am just saying that they may see themselves differently and don't want to be a sport. it is all about perception and maybe those communities just don't think they are that similar. We should ask a dancer about what they think, that would be an interesting topic of discussion.

[hoodie axel]

13 hours ago, Neenah said:

I did actually mention this is my  post. Unlike other dances, ID shares aspects of it (the skating part) with other sports (singles and paris) so while it is dancing on ice, it is also skating on ice. Unless you consider only jumps, twists, and throws to be athletic in FS. ID is both dance and sport by its very nature, which is not something other dances can claim. 

 

 

13 hours ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

You did? I guess I'm must not have have read between the lines deep enough then. Sorry about that. Still, I find it hard to fathom that they'll say not to an Olympic medal but if they are as haughty as you are implying them to be, then maybe they don't deserve to be.

 

I'll just say that I don't exactly agree with Neenah. Artistic Gymnastics takes elements of ballet. So in that sense ballet should be dance and sport by its very nature, too.

[WinForPooh]

2 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

 

I'll just say that I don't exactly agree with Neenah. Artistic Gymnastics takes elements of ballet. So in that sense ballet should be dance and sport by its very nature, too.

 

O/T under spoiler

 

Spoiler

This is heading into 'why is this a sport at all' territory which can be applied to half the things where you can have clear winners. I mean, why is sprinting a sport? So many people can run and why is speed of running considered a particularly important skill that elevates it into a competitive sport? Somebody decided that finding out who was the fastest over a short distance was a sport. Hurdles, why is that a competitive sport? It's running and jumping over things, even toddlers can do it, it's not even like nobody knocks hurdles over while competing! Just because you can find a clear winner about how finishes first, why is it a sport big enough to be an important part of the Olympics? There are clear winners at arm wrestling, but that's not an Olympic sport, why not? Hopping could be a sport, there's a clear winner and you obviously need both balance and speed to win it, wouldn't it have a higher level of difficulty than sprinting? Or the three-legged race, it could be a sport, requires speed, teamwork, balance, and clear winners for every race.

 

Ballet is not a sport, I think, because it developed as an art form and not as a competitive sporting discipline. Skating did develop as a competitive sporting discipline where compulsory figures was an important part of scoring, and ice dancers are the athletes who would be the best at that particular, not very spectacular, segment of the sport that is figure skating. But compulsory figures didn't have an audience and ice dance does. The scoring system might be very different, but there is a scoring system, and going by the technical handbook things that were recently released, ice dance has a far more objective and clearly described system of deductions and bonuses for features. It's not nearly as subjective as 'very good height and distance with great flow gets about 50% more points than BV' like in the singles and pairs skating technical manual. We might have laughed at the stick figures but they're very clear and set down very specific conditions that need to be met to get a level on a feature or a bonus or deduction on it. 

 

Back to ballet, if enough ballet dancers decided to make a governing body and sat and figured out how to score it as a competitive sport and then started a campaign to have it be considered a sport, then at some point down the line, it could very well become a sport. But that would be a radical deviation from its very long and established history, so it would take a lot of changes, starting with perception among people within ballet. Or any other athletic pursuit that's currently considered an art form, not a sport. 

 

 

[Lunna]

I don't have a problem with ID being a sport but for me it's the most least interesting discipline from FS, mostly cuz I don't understand judging at all. Well, I can see protocols and I know that for example level 4 StSq can get you a lot of points but I can't see it with my eyes (can't recognize levels), also commentators don't help not explaining much, plus even skaters don't always know where they lost levels The fact that there're not that much interesting programmes also doesn't help (usually it's a couple of top-teams and a couple from middle field can come with smth. creative) and you don't have wow-elements to keep you interested if a programme is so-so.

[hoodie axel]

26 minutes ago, WinForPooh said:

 

O/T under spoiler

 

  Hide contents

This is heading into 'why is this a sport at all' territory which can be applied to half the things where you can have clear winners. I mean, why is sprinting a sport? So many people can run and why is speed of running considered a particularly important skill that elevates it into a competitive sport? Somebody decided that finding out who was the fastest over a short distance was a sport. Hurdles, why is that a competitive sport? It's running and jumping over things, even toddlers can do it, it's not even like nobody knocks hurdles over while competing! Just because you can find a clear winner about how finishes first, why is it a sport big enough to be an important part of the Olympics? There are clear winners at arm wrestling, but that's not an Olympic sport, why not? Hopping could be a sport, there's a clear winner and you obviously need both balance and speed to win it, wouldn't it have a higher level of difficulty than sprinting? Or the three-legged race, it could be a sport, requires speed, teamwork, balance, and clear winners for every race.

 

Ballet is not a sport, I think, because it developed as an art form and not as a competitive sporting discipline. Skating did develop as a competitive sporting discipline where compulsory figures was an important part of scoring, and ice dancers are the athletes who would be the best at that particular, not very spectacular, segment of the sport that is figure skating. But compulsory figures didn't have an audience and ice dance does. The scoring system might be very different, but there is a scoring system, and going by the technical handbook things that were recently released, ice dance has a far more objective and clearly described system of deductions and bonuses for features. It's not nearly as subjective as 'very good height and distance with great flow gets about 50% more points than BV' like in the singles and pairs skating technical manual. We might have laughed at the stick figures but they're very clear and set down very specific conditions that need to be met to get a level on a feature or a bonus or deduction on it. 

 

Back to ballet, if enough ballet dancers decided to make a governing body and sat and figured out how to score it as a competitive sport and then started a campaign to have it be considered a sport, then at some point down the line, it could very well become a sport. But that would be a radical deviation from its very long and established history, so it would take a lot of changes, starting with perception among people within ballet. Or any other athletic pursuit that's currently considered an art form, not a sport. 

 

 

Well you've highlighted I your spoiler why I am not into sports

 

 I'm fine with ballet not being a sport. I just didn't think that point was a satisfying one.

[Neenah]

4 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

 

I'll just say that I don't exactly agree with Neenah. Artistic Gymnastics takes elements of ballet. So in that sense ballet should be dance and sport by its very nature, too.

you kind of missed my points, but I am having trouble explaining it anyway so it is fine. I think @WinForPooh did better job than I did with that. What I am saying is in our world it is perception and self image that matters most. What makes something sport or art? Why would someone who consider themselves artists care about an Olympic medal when they can compete for other prestigious awards in their own field. 

What I keep seeing is that ID is not a sport because it is dancing on ice and so I explained that while the dancing part may be considered art (because that's how dancers see themselves), the ice part and the skating skills required to transfer dance into the ice is considered a sport (because these are the basics of FS in general and it is an accepted sport). ID is a sport because it wants to be a sport and the ISU did their best to meet the demands and conditions that makes it a sport. This is not about some universal rule that you need to sweat this much or exert that much effort for something to be considered a sport, it is about the Olympics having a set of rules that needs to be met to b recognized as a sport. Any kind of activity (like ballet) can change and try to meet those demands to be considered a sport. The real question here is, do they want to? do they consider themselves a sport?  

[hoodie axel]

2 hours ago, Neenah said:

you kind of missed my points, but I am having trouble explaining it anyway so it is fine. I think @WinForPooh did better job than I did with that. What I am saying is in our world it is perception and self image that matters most. What makes something sport or art? Why would someone who consider themselves artists care about an Olympic medal when they can compete for other prestigious awards in their own field. 

 

If that's the point you were making, sure I did miss it. I don't agree with it anyway. I don't consider FS to be fully sport either, it's art and sport, too (though it's debatably neither at this point). I do think @WinForPooh articulated the opinion well, though.

[Neenah]

56 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

If that's the point you were making, sure I did miss it. I don't agree with it anyway. I don't consider FS to be fully sport either, it's art and sport, too (though it's debatably neither at this point). I do think @WinForPooh articulated the opinion well, though.

You have a very pessimistic view of the sport, but that is your opinion and I respect it.. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree 

[Murieleirum]

Meanwhile there's me who considers sport everything that makes you sweat 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

I get that ballet perhaps wouldn't be suited to competition because...well, to my very limited knowledge, I don't think ballet itself does competitions. It has performances ala philharmonic orchestras but not full-on tournaments or even mini piroutte-offs the way other kinds genres of dancing have organized competitions. So I get that one. But for these other dances that actually hold competitions and have teams emerge as winners, those qualify i think, if ID qualifies.

 

3 時間前, hoodie axelさんが言いました:

If that's the point you were making, sure I did miss it. I don't agree with it anyway. I don't consider FS to be fully sport either, it's art and sport, too (though it's debatably neither at this point). I do think @WinForPooh articulated the opinion well, though.

 

Hmm, I find FS 100% sport. Being artistic doesn't make it less of one. If anything, it makes it more. And I include ID in this category, only in lesser value compared to other disciplines within the FS sphere. 

 

1 時間前, Murieleirumさんが言いました:

Meanwhile there's me who considers sport everything that makes you sweat 

 

I sweat when I eat extremely spicy or hot soupy stuff, tho. Does that make me an athlete? I really hope it does...

 

[Murieleirum]

5 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

I sweat when I eat extremely spicy or hot soupy stuff, tho. Does that make me an athlete? I really hope it does...

 

There is a thing called competitive eating c: And chili eating contests.