General Skating Chat

[rockstaryuzu]

I don't have problems seeing ice dance as a sport equal to singles or pairs. But maybe that's because when I started out as a figure skating fan, the singles discipline included compulsory figures, which have the distinction of being simultaneously the most un-sport-like and yet most easy to score objectively of all the disciplines. To me, ice dance is basically the paired-up version of compulsory figures...so yeah, I have no problem with it being considered a sport on the same level as all the others. 

[Xen]

Hmm, I don't have an issue with ice dance or dance as a sport. I think the issue with ice dance in general, and one that I really have with Broadmoor open (or the future artistic program style), is this:

- If everyone goes clean, how will the top 6 be determined?

 

With school/compulsory figures, judges and refs will actually go measure with tools and such. So it's possible to still have an objective standard. With ice dance, with training you can tell apart edge depths, and twizzle quality etc is something that can be seen (due to the stringent requirement of ice dance on basic SS).  But I think in singles it's going to be harder-and here is where it gets worse. Let's say that guys decide to differentiate themselves by using harder jumps followed by transitions. Let's say skater A does a quad followed by 8.5/10 quality twizzles before and after. And skater B does a triple sandwiched between quality 9.5/10 twizzles. Who do I give the higher score to, skater B or A? Skater B had the higher quality twizzles sure, but skater A had the harder element to control. So do I say skater A or skater B is the better skater? If anything, that issue of linking PCs and the mystery quad buff on SS might get just hidden with the format. 

 

 

[hoodie axel]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

I think the issue with ice dance in general, and one that I really have with Broadmoor open (or the future artistic program style), is this:

You won't have a problem. It will still be "the strongest fed wins".

[monchan]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

Hmm, I don't have an issue with ice dance or dance as a sport. I think the issue with ice dance in general, and one that I really have with Broadmoor open (or the future artistic program style), is this:

- If everyone goes clean, how will the top 6 be determined?

 

With school/compulsory figures, judges and refs will actually go measure with tools and such. So it's possible to still have an objective standard. With ice dance, with training you can tell apart edge depths, and twizzle quality etc is something that can be seen (due to the stringent requirement of ice dance on basic SS).  But I think in singles it's going to be harder-and here is where it gets worse. Let's say that guys decide to differentiate themselves by using harder jumps followed by transitions. Let's say skater A does a quad followed by 8.5/10 quality twizzles before and after. And skater B does a triple sandwiched between quality 9.5/10 twizzles. Who do I give the higher score to, skater B or A? Skater B had the higher quality twizzles sure, but skater A had the harder element to control. So do I say skater A or skater B is the better skater? If anything, that issue of linking PCs and the mystery quad buff on SS might get just hidden with the format. 

  

 

Everyone goes clean but GOE/PCs rewarded might not be the same. It might depend quality of execution, also reputation makes a LARGE part here. It's as subjective (or even more) in ice dance as in single skating. That's why ice dance couples must stay together lifetime to build reputation.

 

About single skating's jump, yes it's always vague like that when it comes to GOE, it's all about which "quality" does a certain judge care more. Do they like big jump w somewhat simple transition, or smaller jump w complex steps? I mean the ISU guide book is already really vague and give judge so much freedom to score in anyway they like. But what irritates me more is judge now gives 0 f*ck to essential issue like take off technique and rotation, which I feel much more important than transition, jump size etc.. Well, they don't even care if the jump is correct anymore I can care less how much transition they prefer lol.

[Lyyli]

Imo ID is a sport as well as other FS disciplines because ISU has developed  a sport discipline form of it. I see it as a sport. Instead of jumps, lifts etc ID just has it´s own demanding elements, rules and requirements different from the other FS disciplines. The difficulties in judging concern all disciplines in FS more or less.

This discussion brought to my mind a recent interview of Mikhail Kolyada whit a title: “Ideally, we all should strive to be like the ice dancers”. He thinks single skaters have a lot to learn from ice dancers. https://www.isu.org/figure-skating/figure-skating-news/interviews/11861-mikhail-kolyada?templateParam=15 . Single skaters are not automatically good ice dancers when they change to ID. I also remembered Tracy talking about this question in TSL interview a couple of years ago. She said it was finally Thorvill and Dean that made ID accepted as a sport.  (In YT beginning around 12:35-)

I have not heard that the ballet community has ever tried to develop ballet to be a sport discipline in the same way as ID community though there are some ballet competitions. I guess they could take it further towards sport, organize Worlds, Europeans etc but is there any will to do it, I don´t know. In Ballroom dancing there are Worlds, Europeans etc but I am not aware have they ever applied for the Olympics. They could for sure. Synchronized Skating has applied a couple of times but has not been accepted. They had high hopes for Peking but were turned down again. The IOC said that one reason for the denial is that there are not yet enough Syncro teams all over the world. 

 

And finally: Kolyada´s words about ID: "Figure skating is such a smooth sport, everything should look like a knife cutting through butter. You need to strive for being like the dancers. They are flying over the ice. Ideally we all should strive to be like they are. I watch the ice dancers, how they are doing all this, so softly how they stretch their legs and arms and it is all beautiful."
 

[Xen]

2 hours ago, monchan said:

Everyone goes clean but GOE/PCs rewarded might not be the same. It might depend quality of execution, also reputation makes a LARGE part here. It's as subjective (or even more) in ice dance as in single skating. That's why ice dance couples must stay together lifetime to build reputation.

 

About single skating's jump, yes it's always vague like that when it comes to GOE, it's all about which "quality" does a certain judge care more. Do they like big jump w somewhat simple transition, or smaller jump w complex steps? I mean the ISU guide book is already really vague and give judge so much freedom to score in anyway they like. But what irritates me more is judge now gives 0 f*ck to essential issue like take off technique and rotation, which I feel much more important than transition, jump size etc.. Well, they don't even care if the jump is correct anymore I can care less how much transition they prefer lol.

That's the issue no? If everyone goes clean, it becomes far more subjective because the final determinate are GOE and PCS on the more subjective scale. 

 

What you mentioned about jumps: 

 -Skater A: big jumps, less steps, assume effortless and clean. You can give the skater +3/4, for hitting the bullets other than complex steps into the jump. 

- Skater B: smaller jump w/complex steps, assume effortless and clean, again, +3 because the skater didn't hit the very good height and distance bullet. 

But essentially they're both the same type of scores. Sure, subjectively I might like skater A type jumps more, but ultimately, they both are showing mastery of a certain jump, just in different ways. 

 

I'm probably also on the boat that tech panel doesn't play enough of a role. Watching the JGP scores this week was....interesting. It's interesting to note that some of the cleaner jump techniques were coming from skaters who were from smaller feds or from lesser known coaches in larger feds. 

 

 

[Neenah]

2 minutes ago, Xen said:

That's the issue no? If everyone goes clean, it becomes far more subjective because the final determinate are GOE and PCS on the more subjective scale. 

 

What you mentioned about jumps: 

 -Skater A: big jumps, less steps, assume effortless and clean. You can give the skater +3/4, for hitting the bullets other than complex steps into the jump. 

- Skater B: smaller jump w/complex steps, assume effortless and clean, again, +3 because the skater didn't hit the very good height and distance bullet. 

But essentially they're both the same type of scores. Sure, subjectively I might like skater A type jumps more, but ultimately, they both are showing mastery of a certain jump, just in different ways. 

 

I'm probably also on the boat that tech panel doesn't play enough of a role. Watching the JGP scores this week was....interesting. It's interesting to note that some of the cleaner jump techniques were coming from skaters who were from smaller feds or from lesser known coaches in larger feds. 

 

 

The only reason the ISU wants to have an artistic and technical segments is to give more medals. It is the same reason they introduced the team event at the Olympics as well. Why? simply because IJS made the competition fair and allowed small country skaters to compete almost equally with established skating countries.

The ISU are not even trying to hide t, they said it is about the popularity of the sport and giving more medals and we know that they are only considering popularity in the US and Europe as important. So, they will invent a new competition that they can choose the winner to and give them a gold medal just to make the feds and their sponsors happy. The team event also clearly favored the big feds and was more or less a competitions on which color of Olympic medals Russia, Canada, and the US where getting. Now we have Olympic medalists who couldn't get anywhere near the podium in their individual events.

I don't know why the ISU is soo desperate for the old markets and can't see the potential in the new markets in Asia and other places in the World. We are seeing talented skaters from countries no one thought would have skating and they need the support to build the sport in their countries. But the ISU is making it harder for them by giving more chances to stronger feds and cementing them at the top. I see this as a step backwards from the IJS and the ISU should really consider it carefully. Having more medals in not a bad idea but giving them should be based on a fair competition that does not favour any side or a skater, and the suggested format certainly does not look like it would be.

[Xen]

11 minutes ago, Neenah said:

The only reason the ISU wants to have an artistic and technical segments is to give more medals. It is the same reason they introduced the team event at the Olympics as well. Why? simply because IJS made the competition fair and allowed small country skaters to compete almost equally with established skating countries.

The ISU are not even trying to hide t, they said it is about the popularity of the sport and giving more medals and we know that they are only considering popularity in the US and Europe as important. So, they will invent a new competition that they can choose the winner to and give them a gold medal just to make the feds and their sponsors happy. The team event also clearly favored the big feds and was more or less a competitions on which color of Olympic medals Russia, Canada, and the US where getting. Now we have Olympic medalists who couldn't get anywhere near the podium in their individual events.

I don't know why the ISU is soo desperate for the old markets and can't see the potential in the new markets in Asia and other places in the World. We are seeing talented skaters from countries no one thought would have skating and they need the support to build the sport in their countries. But the ISU is making it harder for them by giving more chances to stronger feds and cementing them at the top. I see this as a step backwards from the IJS and the ISU should really consider it carefully. Having more medals in not a bad idea but giving them should be based on a fair competition that does not favour any side or a skater, and the suggested format certainly does not look like it would be.

You mean the traditional powerhouses are crybabies? XD

Man, we need to see either China or japan just go and mess up that team podium. Can't wait for the reaction then...oh wait, that's why they want those segments, because it'll happen sometime by 2022-2026 eh? 

 

As for sponsors, aren't majority of the sponsors Japanese companies? Yet I don't see candies for Japanese skaters. So wonder which--oh wait, NBC.

[hoodie axel]

15 minutes ago, Neenah said:

I don't know why the ISU is soo desperate for the old markets and can't see the potential in the new markets in Asia and other places in the World.

You don't know? 

 

Well, the first reason is that the sport has "always" been more popular there. In other words, older audiences, that have more money to pay and attend events, unlike the relatively younger audiences in JPN, KOR, and CHN.

 

The other reason is that the sport has "always" been more popular there. What I mean is that this is a western sport still, through and through. Sad, but true.

[monchan]

56 minutes ago, Xen said:

That's the issue no? If everyone goes clean, it becomes far more subjective because the final determinate are GOE and PCS on the more subjective scale. 

Isn't it the same for single skating? For example if all top 5-6 of Ladies single all skate clean, judge can play w GOE/PCs like they want to determine ranking and I can't argue if someone doesn't deserve their rank.

[kaeryth]

3 hours ago, Xen said:

Man, we need to see either China or japan just go and mess up that team podium.

 

In my opinion, Italy should've gotten bronze over USA in PC . 

[hoodie axel]

38 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

In my opinion, Italy should've gotten bronze over USA in PC . 

I want the Team Event to change. There can be an overall medal/trophy for the country, but the individual medals in the Team performances should be handed only to those who place in the top 3. There is no way Patrick Chan, Kaetlyn Osmond, Nathan Chen, Bradie Tennell, Mikhail Kolyada, and those weird wing people from Russia deserved medals (reputation judging on Chan's and Osmond's performances that got them to the top spots aside).

 

And the Team Event needs to start making countries send their best. No reason for the weird wing people to be sent to the Team Event, and why Kolyada was sent to the LP instead of Aliev, and why Rippon was sent instead of Chen, why Tennell was sent at all, etc. etc.

[monchan]

55 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

And the Team Event needs to start making countries send their best. No reason for the weird wing people to be sent to the Team Event, and why Kolyada was sent to the LP instead of Aliev, and why Rippon was sent instead of Chen, why Tennell was sent at all, etc. etc.

I don't think Yuzu's injury could handle 3 consecutive exhausting skates. I'm glad countries could choose whoever at their convenience for that unnecessary event 

[hoodie axel]

4 minutes ago, monchan said:

I don't think Yuzu's injury could handle 3 consecutive exhausting skates. I'm glad countries could choose whoever at their convenience for that unnecessary event 

Injuries aside. And it shouldn't be unnecessary if it exists. It is unnecessary exactly because the countries treat it as such. My statement wasn't limited to Yuzuru anyway.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

On 2018/8/26 at 午前4時24分, saltyさんが言いました:

 

sorry im just a bit confused about where you're coming from, could you give us an example? It just sounds like you're not sure how the technical side of Ice Dance is judged (which is fair since it's taken me like a year and half to even get a smidge of an idea if a team skated cleanly or not)

 

It's quite simple. We have non-judged sports where it's very clear cut who wins. We have sports which aren't wholly dependent on judges for points but there are referees who determine whether or not rules have been followed or if a team deserves points or if a point is valid. And then, we have judged sports where the scores are wholly determined by judges but made a bit more objective in recent years with a clear cut scoring system based on elements performed. Now for the third category, which figure skating has, technical elements all have clear rules under which they should be scored but it's the big technical elements (and when they are performed) that really give a figure skater the edge. Although what sets Hanyu apart is the way he gives importance to all elements instead of simply the jumps, and even though being a complete skater has always been his ultimate goal, there has been a time when he was wholly focused on just the jumps. He wouldn't be the far and away champion he is today without them. Ice dancing obviously does not have that, and so depends on more subtle elements.

 

Back during the 6.0 era, when jumps didn't have their own scores and everything was dependent on the judges, the evolution, while it happened, came about slower and development of big technical elements that would get judges on a skater's side seemed stuck on triples because skaters didn't see the point in pushing the quad boundaries seeing as a fall back then is a death sentence to their contention chances. Quads back then were more of a thing to see who could do it. And for the longest time, that was all it was, even after the initial shift from the 6.0 system to the IJS one which, albeit with a few revisions, is still going strong today. After the initial transition, there were more skaters jumping quads, sure, and there was Plushenko pushing for them but he was by and large alone as most others were still playing it safe. But the scores were there for their taking if they were willing to risk it. And even so,  it didn't always pay off (see men's individual Olympics results circa 2010). That's how I came to realize that figure skating is as much a sport as other sports out there, if not more so.

 

Ice dancing is different. With it being ultimately a dance, it does not require big technical elements because then it would no longer be dance but a full-on sport*. It's all about basics and prowess of a more subtle nature. So you have a way to score them but if you have a few teams who are very close in skill to one another, which would happen in something that doesn't get big obvious developments but only subtle ones, and if one team is unbeaten at one thing, another one would sure to be able to do another thing better than the rest, the technical scoring wouldn't be amply huge to give one the edge over the other. So it'll have to fall back on which team the judges simply like better, either on that day or everyday (ie: based on bias.)

 

*I have nothing against ID being judged and awarded as a sport. In fact, I think it's a step in the right direction that they included it as a separate discipline, something I believe is actually pretty recent. But this is why it baffles me why other dances which are subject to more or less the same logic and rules when it comes to judging didn't get the same treatment. And until they do, ID will remain an anomaly to me.

 

@Lyyli (sorry I left out quoting you cos this post is already overly long. It didn't need to look it too >_<)

 

Singles and pairs have to be more than ID,  imo, because the ideal for those disciplines is the same kind of flow and smoothness ID has but WITH big technical elements.

 

On 2018/8/26 at 午後7時7分, monchanさんが言いました:

Isn't it the same for single skating? For example if all top 5-6 of Ladies single all skate clean, judge can play w GOE/PCs like they want to determine ranking and I can't argue if someone doesn't deserve their rank.

 

Yeah, in a way it is. But say what you want about Tutberidze and her baby jumping androids, the Russians have really been stepping up their game and injecting this discipline with the kind of fire it should have. There's always been a potential for it because when a technically superior (and almost always younger) skater came along in the past who managed to skate clean, the judges have proven to have ultimately preferred  the one who showed the more impressive athletic prowess. That's how Lipinski, Sotnikova and Zagitova won. And had Asada not made that mistake she did in Vancouver, she may very well have won over Kim.

 

In the same vein, it is also why Chen was able to win over Hanyu in last year's 4CC (where he pulled those impressive stunts) and this year's FS segment at the Olys (where other than his two mini-errors, he skated like a dream, enough to not have Chen with just his jumps to beat him by 9 whole points). And the reason for his explosive scores that made him the reigning world champion whose combined total score is second only to Hanyu, with less than 10 points. Hanyu knew what he was doing when he kept pushing for those quads last quarter when everyone was telling him he didn't need them. He was born hardheaded for a reason. And while he ultimately didn't need them to win his second OGM, he definitely needed them on hand because if Chen wasn't so cowed by the pressure and having to skate after his explosive performance, had he skated his SP clean, you can bet Hanyu's going to bring out his big guns in the FS, regardless of how Chen does in it (he might very well have succumbed to pressure then being that close to the OGM). That kind of strategizing and sporting warfare isn't something we'll ever get to see in a sport like ID. You see a lot of tension between top teams, sure, especially between favorites, just like the old days for other disciplines, but I think that has a lot to do with so many things being out of their hands, and there being no telling who would win even if they skated their best.