General Skating Chat

[xeyra]

@Xen Oh, I know who they are, but I meant I couldn't actually find the data on Yuzu's 4Lz the twitter thread referenced in their site. I was wanting to find that data but couldn't.

[xeyra]

 

27 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

_{Are you even questioning it?} 

 

Depends on whether he can place 4Lz3T in the second half. As you know, combos in the first half of a FS are for weaklings. 

[Xen]

6 minutes ago, xeyra said:

@Xen Oh, I know who they are, but I meant I couldn't actually find the data on Yuzu's 4Lz the twitter thread referenced in their site. I was wanting to find that data but couldn't.

might not be published? I doubt they publish all their data.

[xeyra]

2 minutes ago, Xen said:

might not be published? I doubt they publish all their data.

 

Yeah, I guess it's probably part of a paid subscription service of some sort, sadly. But good to know this info!

[SSS]

4 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Mmh, true, I do believe he wants to try new combinations though. This season, he's given us different things with the 4T, nothing with the 4Loop (who's protesting and feeling kind of left out of the fun), so I do expect new combinations with new jumps next season... which is still a big question mark, because of Yuzuru AND Isu stuff, no? Everything could happen. 

will I see some 4A combo...4A2T is enough...

[CupidsBow]

Just wanted to say I've updated my stats sheet for Yuzuru ^^ 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JKEpZyL6gJen3eaO4OtJbr53f7VyTpAF0IvZkjszfhw/edit?usp=drive_web

 

I also made a similar thing for Shoma
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sYaoFMzzO_KuhqLruUmJgWwDfNBjRb780M9OGHAPBkM/edit#gid=0
Though it should be noted Shoma has less data and these are more things to track individual progress rather than comparisons

 

As for combos...for the lutz maybe but Yuzuru hasn't ever really done many loop combos so I don't think the 4lo will get used for a combo. You never know though.

[xeyra]

Here's the 4Lz analysis I mentioned earlier:

 

 

Source

Check the source for comments from Arnaud Muccini, from Perform Live, who analyzed this.

 

Edit: 

For comparison, here's their analysis of Boyang's 4Lz from Worlds 2017 FS.

[OonsieHui]

17 minutes ago, xeyra said:

Here's the 4Lz analysis I mentioned earlier:

 

 

Source

Check the source for comments from Arnaud Muccini, from Perform Live, who analyzed this.

 

Edit: 

For comparison, here's their analysis of Boyang's 4Lz from Worlds 2017 FS.

Haha the same guy says that that Russian comparison of jumps table isn't accurate at all. 

 

 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

1 時間前, WinForPoohさんが言いました:

I think I'm crashing so hard from the swan-high, I'm so pessimistic today! Not about Yuzu, about skaters in general. Zhenya not fixing her flutz and not getting called for it, Wakaba - didn't her lip get a free pass, too? Mirai's UR on the triple axel... Everything is so rushed to strategise for max point-accumulation for the Olympics. I think we should be really glad that Yuzu has the character he does, and that he rarely got a free pass on any of his mistakes. It's made him better as a skater. He had to develop the right technique. With all those quads, that should help his longetivity. So the tough calls earlier in his career have really been good for him. (This also makes me have renewed respect for Nathan for getting his quads flip and lutz! And a little sad because he could probably be so much better as a skater if he could focus a little less on the jumps.)

 

Based on my own observations, here's how I'd sum up the top 6 in terms of performance and jumps (in comparison to the current high standard):

 

Uno, S.: Has good performance and skating skills, has decent 3A, has a good variety of quads but all of which are lacking in true quality still

(Consistency level of clean or cleanish skates: High)

 

Jin, B.: Has decent variety of good-looking quads and a decent 3A, has decent skating skills but somewhat lacking in performance ones

(Consistency level: Medium to low)

 

Chen, N.: Has all quads in decent quality but a bit of a wonky 3A, has good performance skills and decent skating skills; lacking the ability to marry the two in a single performance

(Consistency level: High)

 

Chan, P.: Has lower level quads in great quality (but is better at one than the other), a wonky 3A, and performance and skating skill for the ages; is able to combine them all nicely in a single performance

(Consistency level: Low)

 

Fernandez, J.: Has lower level quads in great quality, a nice 3A, and great performance and skating skills; is able to combine them all nicely in a single performance

(Consistency level: Low)

 

Hanyu, Y.: Has a great variety of fantastic-looking quads, a 3A that's even more fantastic than his quads, superb performance and skating skills; is able to combine them all seamlessly into a single cohesive performance with very little room separating the performance and technical aspects

(Consistency level: Low)

[xeyra]

3 minutes ago, OonsieHui said:

Haha the same guy says that that Russian comparison of jumps table isn't accurate at all. 

 

Yeah, some people at GS already complained about their methods back when they did the Ladies version. But it was still an interesting table for a general look at height and rotational speed, even if some errors. 

[golden]

17 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Jin, B.: Has decent variety of good-looking quads and a decent 3A, but lacking in performance and skating skills

(Consistency level: Medium to low)

 

Chen, N.: Has all quads in decent quality but a bit of a wonky 3A, has good performance and skating skills; lacking the ability to marry the two in a single performance

(Consistency level: High)

 

if we’re categorising skating skills as one has good and the other not so good, i certaintly wouldnt put nathan and boyang this way around. he’ll never be patrick chan, but boyangs edges are decent, his speed tends to be better than or equal to nathan’s and he utilises multidirectional and one foot skating much more in his programs. nathan is often noted for his lack of knee bend too, and while boyang doesnt use his knees as much as he probably should, he does use them a little more. thats just my take on things though. 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

14 分ぐらい, goldenさんが言いました:

 

if we’re categorising skating skills as one has good and the other not so good, i certaintly wouldnt put nathan and boyang this way around. he’ll never be patrick chan, but boyangs edges are decent, his speed tends to be better than or equal to nathan’s and he utilises multidirectional and one foot skating much more in his programs. nathan is often noted for his lack of knee bend too, and while boyang doesnt use his knees as much as he probably should, he does use them a little more. thats just my take on things though. 

 

My judgment doesn't go into so much minute detail, it's only based on the current standard, like I said right off the bat. I lumped skating skills and performance together somewhat and performance-wise, my eyes and my mind are telling me Chen is way stronger and more developed.I won't pit Chen and Uno against each other here because they both strike me as decent in this department although style-wise, I personally prefer Chen's.

 

EDIT: Hmm I realized I probably shouldn't have lumped them together in the first place. Will go back to edit accordingly. 

 

EDIT 2: Done! Sorry, kinda got the two melded with one another when they really should be separate in my generalization. 

[golden]

On 23/10/2017 at 9:19 AM, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

My judgment doesn't go into so much minute detail, it's only based on the current standard, like I said right off the bat. I lumped skating skills and performance together somewhat and performance-wise, my eyes and my mind are telling me Chen is way stronger and more developed.I won't pit Chen and Uno against each other here because they both strike me as decent in this department although style-wise, I personally prefer Chen's.

 

completely understandable, i just dont agree. i certaintly think nathan has excellent foundations as demonstrated in his junior career, but thus far has been underwhelming in his senior career because of an extreme focus on increasing tech. at this current moment, id have nathan below boyang on pcs generally, although it wouldnt be by an excessive amount. i wouldnt compare the two to shoma though, as id put these two almost equal, say, 85 pts in a free skate, whereas shoma has a different type of quality, 88+ for example, javi at around 92+ and patrick/yuzu 95+.

 

stylistically id probably put nathan 1st of the younger guys this season, because of boyangs free skate being a mess currently, and i find shoma’s programs fall flat for me, compared to some of the quirkier things he’s put out, like his 15/16 short program. 

[WinForPooh]

40 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

Based on my own observations, here's how I'd sum up the top 6 in terms of performance and jumps (in comparison to the current high standard):

 

Uno, S.: Has good performance and skating skills, has decent 3A, has a good variety of quads but all of which are lacking in true quality still

(Consistency level of clean or cleanish skates: High)

 

Jin, B.: Has decent variety of good-looking quads and a decent 3A, has decent skating skills but somewhat lacking in performance ones

(Consistency level: Medium to low)

 

Chen, N.: Has all quads in decent quality but a bit of a wonky 3A, has good performance skills and decent skating skills; lacking the ability to marry the two in a single performance

(Consistency level: High)

 

Chan, P.: Has lower level quads in great quality (but is better at one than the other), a wonky 3A, and performance and skating skill for the ages; is able to combine them all nicely in a single performance

(Consistency level: Low)

 

Fernandez, J.: Has lower level quads in great quality, a nice 3A, and great performance and skating skills; is able to combine them all nicely in a single performance

(Consistency level: Low)

 

Hanyu, Y.: Has a great variety of fantastic-looking quads, a 3A that's even more fantastic than his quads, fantastic performance and skating skills; is able to combine them all seamlessly into a single cohesive performance with very little room separating the performance and technical aspects

(Consistency level: Low)

I think Boyang's quads are better than almost everybody else's, and his skating skills are somewhat underrated. And Nathan's performance skills are there, he just saves it for the galas. Strange (but makes sense with how they are currently set up) that the short is where we can see some of his artistry, the free is where you're supposed to be able to see it!

 

But Shoma's performance skills - I'd like to see he can do more than the intense thing. Gentleness, lightheartedness, upbeatness - the whole thing. Because right now, Shoma's performance skills are what put him closest to Yuzu in some ways, but everything for the last two seasons, while well done, looks the same to me.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

@golden: Your reasoning made sense though, which made me realize I shouldn't have lumped SS and performance together. See, when your performance game is strong, you can mask weaknesses but when it's not, it gives an impression of having weaknesses that aren't really there. I've amended my post to properly separate the two in Jin's case.

 

@WinForPooh: Hmmm. I'm also considering it from the angle of how well they're blended in with the program, though. So while great on their own, and better than the other younger two in general, which is why I called them nice-looking, they still stick out like sore thumbs in his programs. Like I'd put Chan's 4T, Fernandez's 4S and Hanyu's 4 everything (except for the 4Lz--for now) well and beyond his.