General Skating Chat

[meoima]

I think 4lz will be likely to happen more than 4lo3T. He really needs a new quad to upgrade his BV significantly.

[swanbeau]

Yes I think I'm more sure he'll add 4T1Lo3S than 4Lz :acceptable:

The problem then would be this: 4Lo 4S 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A2T 4T1Lo3S 3Lz - BV: 105.41 (+1.98)

It's not that much of an upgrade compared to what the youngsters will be adding in, and he already is behind on both SP and FS BV to all of the sQuad, including Shoma.

 

Edit:

Now this, would be a different matter...

4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A2T 4T1Lo3S 3A - BV: 111.26 (+7.83)

Tbh, this is how I see things. Why risk 4Lz if is not reliable yet, when you can do it this way. :pbow:

but is adding 4Lz really more risky than adding a 3rd quad (which is a new combo too) in the second half? he didnt even get +GOE at WTT, he also opted out part of the choreography to prepare for the 2nd 4T, better do that combo with 3A imo

[Hanmgse]

I think 4lz will be likely to happen more than 4lo3T. He really needs a new quad to upgrade his BV significantly.

Yeah I don't see 4Lo combo happening either

[Hanmgse]

Yes I think I'm more sure he'll add 4T1Lo3S than 4Lz :acceptable:

The problem then would be this: 4Lo 4S 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A2T 4T1Lo3S 3Lz - BV: 105.41 (+1.98)

It's not that much of an upgrade compared to what the youngsters will be adding in, and he already is behind on both SP and FS BV to all of the sQuad, including Shoma.

 

Edit:

Now this, would be a different matter...

4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A2T 4T1Lo3S 3A - BV: 111.26 (+7.83)

Hmmm, interesting layout. Btw Is it possible to have a layout without 4Lz that passes 110+ points in BV?

[Dara]

Honestly I don't see 4Lz coming yet.

It took him over 2 years to introduce 4Lo (he started doing it on shows spring 2014 - I still remember so clear first footage of 4Lo (fall) in Sapporo). And he told that next season he needs to be clean. It takes some time for him to get used to new jump in competitions, and not sure it's good idea to add completely new jump in Olympic season (remember how Brian said that Yuzu said him that he has to make mistakes now, in pre-Olympic season?)

So I think he'd train 4Lz in off-season, but won't include it in programs. Yet I'm 100% sure he'd upgrade his layout in some way just not that drastic.

[xeyra]

Now this, would be a different matter...

4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A2T 4T1Lo3S 3A - BV: 111.26 (+7.83)

Hmmm, interesting layout. Btw Is it possible to have a layout without 4Lz that passes 110+ points in BV?

Only with a -3Lo combo.

4Lo 4S 3F // 4Lo3T 4T 3A3Lo 3A1Lo3S 3Lz comes at 109.26

4Lo 4S 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A3Lo 4T1Lo3S 3Lz comes close at 109.59

and the only one surpassing 110 BV would be 4Lo 4S 3F // 4Lo3T 4T 3A3Lo 4T1Lo3S 3Lz with 111.24

But this would mean him needing to learn about 1-2 new difficult combos and make 4T1Lo3S consistent.

 

He could add the -3Lo combo to the 3Lz if it's easier (same BV), but then the GOE modifier would be 0.7x instead of 1.

[Hanmgse]

Now this, would be a different matter...

4Lz 4Lo 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A2T 4T1Lo3S 3A - BV: 111.26 (+7.83)

Hmmm, interesting layout. Btw Is it possible to have a layout without 4Lz that passes 110+ points in BV?

Only with a -3Lo combo.

4Lo 4S 3F // 4Lo3T 4T 3A3Lo 3A1Lo3S 3Lz comes at 109.26

4Lo 4S 3F // 4S3T 4T 3A3Lo 4T1Lo3S 3Lz comes close at 109.59

and the only one surpassing 110 BV would be 4Lo 4S 3F // 4Lo3T 4T 3A3Lo 4T1Lo3S 3Lz with 111.24

But this would mean him needing to learn about 1-2 new difficult combos and make 4T1Lo3S consistent.

 

He could add the -3Lo combo to the 3Lz if it's easier (same BV), but then the GOE modifier would be 0.7x instead of 1.

Wow that layout looks harder to master than adding a 4Lz .

[GreatLakesGal]

Dara said:

Honestly I don't see 4Lz coming yet.

It took him over 2 years to introduce 4Lo (he started doing it on shows spring 2014 - I still remember so clear first footage of 4Lo (fall) in Sapporo). And he told that next season he needs to be clean. It takes some time for him to get used to new jump in competitions, and not sure it's good idea to add completely new jump in Olympic season (remember how Brian said that Yuzu said him that he has to make mistakes now, in pre-Olympic season?)

So I think he'd train 4Lz in off-season, but won't include it in programs. Yet I'm 100% sure he'd upgrade his layout in some way just not that drastic.

 

Agree with everything you wrote here, Dara.

 

Just want to add that it's unlikely Yuzu's competition will be clean, given the pressure cooker that is the Olympics.

[xeyra]

Ah... but when he was training the 4Lo in shows... it wasn't really needed in a program. 4S and 4T were sufficient for most and with Yuzu's two 3A combos in the second half, he had higher BV than anyone except maybe Javi.

 

2015 changed the landscape of the men's discipline, with juniors landing quads in their FS, Boyang doing 4Lz and clean 4-quad layouts in his first senior year... and Yuzuru breaking the scoring system... twice!

 

A lot changed since the days he practiced 4Lo for fun. It's not the same environment at all.

[swanbeau]

Ah... but when he was training the 4Lo in shows... it wasn't really needed in a program. 4S and 4T were sufficient for most and with Yuzu's two 3A combos in the second half, he had higher BV than anyone except maybe Javi.

 

2015 changed the landscape of the men's discipline, with juniors landing quads in their FS, Boyang doing 4Lz and clean 4-quad layouts in his first senior year... and Yuzuru breaking the scoring system... twice!

 

A lot changed since the days he practiced 4Lo for fun. It's not the same environment at all.

 

This. Also, since he was injured in 2014-2015 season he didnt upgrade at all in that season. I'm pretty sure he'd include 4Lo in 2015-2016 already if he hadnt been.

 

imo adding a new jump is as risky as doing a bunch of new combos, so he needs to choose what he's most comfortable with. ofc I'm hoping for 4Lz because less quad with more BV but whatever he choose i'll support it. what i'm more curious about is if he add 4Lz, will he replace 3Lz with another jump? What kind of jump? Will he really go for 5quad so 3A could be the last jump? I kinda want 3A for a last jump but i dont want 5 quad (more like i dont want 3 quad in the second half).

[mcq]

I would not rule out his adding 4Lz.

Simply because if you look at Nathan or Vincent, these two also do not have a successful and consistent 4Lz at the beginning of last season. They only include it last season and manage to make it competition ready within one season. I could say the same with Shoma and 4Lo in a sense. Another person that is successful in making a new jump pretty consistent in a short amount of time is Yuzuru himself with the 4Lo. One reason why it might be harder for him to do it in a more consistent manner and faster than the youngsters would be because he would insist on having crazy entries.

 

Also Yuzuru has been training 4Lz since 2014 too. Brian has said he landed it since 2014. Just because there is no footage of it cleanly landed, does not mean that this is a completely new jump that he has not been doing and training regularly for a while. I do think whether he add it or not will be highly dependent on how the state of that jump would be by the end of the off-season though.

[xeyra]

Also Yuzuru has been training 4Lz since 2014 too. Brian has said he landed it since 2014. Just because there is no footage of it cleanly landed, does not mean that this is a completely new jump that he has not been doing and training regularly for a while. I do think whether he add it or not will be highly dependent on how the state of that jump would be by the end of the off-season though.

While doing the Media Thread compilation for the 2016-2017 season, I came across reports that at the beginning of the season, before ACI even, the success rate of his 4Lo was not very high, and he still continued with it. And it took a bit to get the kinks out of the jump but by 4CC in February, he landed it in both programs (of course he messed up other stuff but...... we don't speak of it).

[mcq]

While doing the Media Thread compilation for the 2016-2017 season, I came across reports that at the beginning of the season, before ACI even, the success rate of his 4Lo was not very high, and he still continued with it. And it took a bit to get the kinks out of the jump but by 4CC in February, he landed it in both programs (of course he messed up other stuff but...... we don't speak of it).

 

It was. Brian said there were days when Yuzuru only landed 4Lo once in a whole practice session/whole day. And this is with him off-ice for 2-3 months and all. If he could really make the best out of the off-season, I will just say I would not completely rule out adding that jump into the program.

[GreatLakesGal]

Lots of pros and cons to choosing one path or the other. I wonder if he is struggling with this issue right now?

 

What to do, what to do!! :embSwan:

[OmNom]

meoima said:

Yatagarasu said:

Hanmgse said:

I think I'm also in the team 4Lz in a 4 quad program!

 

Honestly, that seems like the best compromise to me and with the right stamina he can adjust it to five in case he needs to because the lz opens up a door for him to experiment big time.

 

And now with the news Shoma is trying out the 4Lz at shows, I think if he can get it, he'll include it which just raises the stakes further.

I actually would LOVE to see Shoma trying out 3.25 Flutz in hope to get credit for 4lz. Too bad, Nathan and Boyang's fans will be outraged and it will be hilarious.

 

I am sure Yuzuru will upgrade his layout. 100% certain about it.

 

Well, meoima has given the verdict, everyone! Then I believe it too :grin:

(You're the only one whose words I could take as gospel when it comes to prediction, meoima) :smile: