General Skating Chat

[EisElle]

About 4A (can't believe we're discussing 4A technique) I'd like to know which calculations that japanese tv show used.

My recollections about phisycs are a bit rusty, but if you know height and distance of a parabolic trajectory (jumps have a parabolic trajectory, right?) you know the air time and then I guess you get the (average) duration of a single revolution (depending on how many revolutions you want to squeeze in). But:

Quote

Computerized bio-mechanical studies of skaters performing double and triple axels have shown skaters typically do not achieve as much height on triple axels as they do on doubles. This may seem counter-intuitive because higher jumps ought to give a skater more time to complete the rotation. Instead, during the triple axel, skaters do not take a big "step up" so that they can pull into the rotation position more quickly.

So 2As are usually higher than 3As. I think 4A does need that extra height to grant longer airtime (unless someone can't rotate insanely faster), so I'm not expecting for 3A-4A the same trend as 2A-3A, but where do those 17 cm come from exactly?

And they calculated what it takes to jump a 4A for Yuzuru, but what about other skaters who jump shorter 3A? Do they rotate that much faster than Yuzuru already? Because they can squeeze those 3.5 rotations into shorter airtime. Or not? Then they could do a shorter 4A? Or not?

I don't know a thing about jumps aside from what I read and see, but I guess if Yuzuru can land huge 3A out of crazy steps, a 3A with normal preparation should give him the speed he needs to rotate faster and get higher. I think the real problem is to control the rotations so he can have a good landing.

If he rotates slower, is it what it gives him that amazing control on his 3A? Or not? And why does he rotates slower (transitions aside)?

Is it because he does take that big "step up" that usually other skaters take on 2A but not 3A?

So maybe he only needs a smaller "step up" so to "pull into the rotation position more quickly"...but not too small or he doesn't get that much height. Ok I'm losing myself now.

When Yuzu will continue to work on 4A (and I have no doubts he will, I just think he knows he can't afford it right now) what he'll work on will be not how to achieve more speed but how to control it, I think. That and how to jump it after difficult transitions.

 

Sorry for the ramblings. It's just that the Axel is such a fascinating jump, it's like the black sheep among the jumps for take off, number of rotations, dynamics...and it's gorgerous

 

edited to add a couple of very fitting emoticons:

[katonice]

Interesting discussion on the mechanics of jump landings of the top 6 men. Found this a fascinating read. 

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/164907813759/hi-first-off-hope-youre-having-a-nice-day-and/amp

[Yuazz]

22 minutes ago, katonice said:

Interesting discussion on the mechanics of jump landings of the top 6 men. Found this a fascinating read. 

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/post/164907813759/hi-first-off-hope-youre-having-a-nice-day-and/amp

Interesting. Since technically I don't understand much about this sport, at the first I don't know if the skater did so well or not while performing their programs. All I know is they landed their jumps or they fall. Now, after few months learning how to differentiate the jump and how they landed it (and of course how the judges give the scores) I found this sport interesting. 

 

After all, now I know why yuzu is my favorite. I like the way he jumps (so light and elegant, ofc he's also a great performer). 

[EisElle]

Bringing this here from the general thread because lately I tend to be a little obsessed about jumps and such (Yuzu what are you doing to me?

)

 

6 hours ago, micaelis said:

Yuzu I think would shy away from either a QLz or a QF because Boyang's doing the lutz and Shoma the flip.

[..]

it would seem the QA would be the choice, unless Yuzu chooses an equally spectacular alternative, leaving the QA for the future but adding to his weaponry BOTH a QLz and a QF.  

@micaelis I apologize if I'm misunderstanding you, but did you mean it as in "Yuzu wouldn't like to compare his jumps to theirs" or rather "they have already those jumps, he wants to try something harder/new"?

 

If it's the second, even if Yuzuru likes being extra, he is also aware of what he needs to win and how to take it, so IMHO he would be willing to sacrifice the "wow factor" to something effective and that could suit him. He's always been more of a "slow builder" in his strategy, as he chose to increase steadily his BV over many years instead of leaping from 0 to 100, because he values quality and his "quality" is way more than just go and land the most difficult jump out there or jump a lot of difficult jumps and who cares for all the rest. So if he thinks 4Lz or even 4F is what he needs, he would use it (he is after all the guy who put 4T3T as his combo in the SP, despite 4T being regarded now as the easy quad).

 

If it's the first, allow me to disagree. I don't think it fits with Yuzuru's frame of mind retreating from a challenge.

IIRC he's been toying with 4Lz since after Sochi, but he probably started training it more seriously last season.

Sure, Boyang has a monster of a 4Lz, but Yuzu's 3Lz is strong (so much he chose to put it at the very end of the program, when he's more tired, which means he has that kind of confidence in it) and the footage of his 4Lz showed a jump with short preparation, beautiful air position and a lot of height. As for the 4F, Shoma doing it has nothing to do with Yuzu's lack of enthusiasm for it (also, I wouldn't take Shoma's as the epitome of 4F. True, it's the jump that jpn tv boasted a lot, but tbh Shoma has way better jumps than his 4F, and there are better 4F than his).

The reason Yuzuru isn't thrilled/doesn't care to train 4F is its inside edge take off.  Point wise 4F is very close to the 4Lo, but for Yuzuru it has higher risks than 4Lo. He wants full GOEs on all his jumps and for him 4F is unlikely to get them, because he could risk edge calls. Judges don't even appreciate that much his correct edge 3F, despite it being melted into the choreo...

I think 4Lz is the only jump Yuzuru is actually considering to add, because it has much higher BV than the others (4A aside) and he likes a lot the outside edge take off. In a 4 or 5 quad layout with both 4Lz and a 4F, he should replace one of his way more trusted 4T or 4S, with limited reward in terms of BV+GOE and higher risks (fall, edge call, less transition in and out for a new jump...).

4A has higher BV and wow factor but it's harder and more dangerous, so I don't think Yuzuru would really train it to put it into a program, when his aim is being healthy and raising the average through consistency and high quality.

So, I wouldn't be surprised to see Yuzuru's 4Lz and I think it's unlikely to see a 4A during Oly season (you want to stay healthy, Yuzu, don't you?), but a 4F would shock me (but Yuzuru is an alien, so what can I know...).

 

(If I haven't undersood a thing of what you meant, ignore me)

 

6 hours ago, micaelis said:

could one see him doing a 3A as the second part of a combination?

I don't know how much you know about the ISU rules, I myself was pretty much ignorant till a few months ago

From what I've learned you can't have 3A as the second jump in combo because the rules state that the second jump has to take off from the same edge of the landing of the first jump, so back edge. Your second (or third) jump has to be a T, Lo, S o F, while Axel takes off from forward edge.

If you put the Axel after another jump you have a "sequence", not a combo. Sequences of two jumps have a total BV which is lower than the sum of BV(1)+BV(2),  (don't ask me why, these are the rules).

So even if Yuzu can do beautiful sequences with 3As we won't see them in competition

 

But 3A-quadruple combos are possible, I guess. 4-4 combo would be very hard to do and for now with little benefit IMHO (glory aside).

6 hours ago, micaelis said:

I can see Yuzu chasing PCS scores of 50 in the short program and 100 in the long and then adding to that a full measure of TES basic points and GOEs. It's not a secret that Hanyu is a full master of strategizing his programs for the gaining of points.  All skaters do that, of course, but Yuzu does it better than anyone else.

6 hours ago, micaelis said:

I think it quite possible he might retire.  

 

I hope not

[Murieleirum]

If Yuzuru retires after Pyeongchang, he will be the first skater to retire voluntarily while still being able to win everything in the field, while still being able to push the sport forward. I don't know, it doesn't sound right to me. Yuzuru has always skated for other reasons besides himself. As long as he will be the one leading the pack, he will stay. Retiring while being the GOAT is just like quitting from your job even if you love it, you are the best at it, everyone wants you and everyone needs you. I don't know. I think he will change his mind after Pyeongchang if he still thinks he might retire right afterwards. 

[singcarcom]

6 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

If Yuzuru retires after Pyeongchang, he will be the first skater to retire voluntarily while still being able to win everything in the field, while still being able to push the sport forward. I don't know, it doesn't sound right to me. Yuzuru has always skated for other reasons besides himself. As long as he will be the one leading the pack, he will stay. Retiring while being the GOAT is just like quitting from your job even if you love it, you are the best at it, everyone wants you and everyone needs you. I don't know. I think he will change his mind after Pyeongchang if he still thinks he might retire right afterwards. 

 

I would like him to retire voluntarily so that he will always be the Everest that no one will ever surpass. But, I don't want it to come so soon after Pyeongchang...I just became a fan not too long ago and I wish I can follow him closely for a few more seasons. But nothing matters more than Yuzu's health and happiness and I wish whatever decision he makes will achieve that.

[Moria Polonius]

....

 

_{If he wins at Pyongchang, I want him to stay and pull a Evgenia and jump 3A-3A-3A-3A just for the wow factor. Rules, what rules? Double OGM winner needs no rules.}

[Forcefield]

Okay so that 3A3A3A3A

I have a stupid question for anyone who understands the rules, keep in mind it's stupid and I don't really get the rules, can a skater jump extra jumps just as part of the choreo perhaps as long as the others planned passes are out of the way? I mean, even if they wouldn't for many reasons, just hypothetically. So like, otherwise his delayed axel will only be in an ex then?

 

Also, I think Yuzu did a 3-2-2 in RJ1. Is there any reason he doesn't tack an extra 2 at the end of his combos for extra points? Is it worth it? Is it even possible?

 

 

 

I think once quad novelty is over ISU might change rules to keep interest and hype by finally making bigger and harder combos a thing.

[Moria Polonius]

1 hour ago, Forcefield said:

Okay so that 3A3A3A3A

I have a stupid question for anyone who understands the rules, keep in mind it's stupid and I don't really get the rules, can a skater jump extra jumps just as part of the choreo perhaps as long as the others planned passes are out of the way? I mean, even if they wouldn't for many reasons, just hypothetically. So like, otherwise his delayed axel will only be in an ex then?

 

Also, I think Yuzu did a 3-2-2 in RJ1. Is there any reason he doesn't tack an extra 2 at the end of his combos for extra points? Is it worth it? Is it even possible?

 

 

 

I think once quad novelty is over ISU might change rules to keep interest and hype by finally making bigger and harder combos a thing.

 

As far as I know, a series of 3As by the virtue of being 3As will not be a combination but a sequence, and therefore receive only 80% of BV.

 

Rules say only 1 3-jump combo and currently he's doing 3A-1Lo-3S. (I wonder if it'd be possible to do a 1.5 revolution euler? Anybody knows?) An extra double at the end of his 4S-3T would invalidate his 3A-1Lo-3S combo. An extra double tacked onto his 3A-1Lo-3S would simply be invalid and worth 0 points because there's no such thing as a 4-jump combo. An extra double tacked onto his 3A-2T would also be invalid because he'd have already done one 3-jump combo. 

 

But yeah, I wonder, if a skater did all his 8 jumping passes, could he do extra jumps as choreo sequence. Although, lol, I imagine a sequence of 4 3As after 8 jumping passes would be nigh impossible to pull off even for Yuzuru 3A God Hanyu.

 

Or: " Excuse me Mr. Technical Specialist, those extra 3 3As were just me going for the creative exit bullet!"

[Murieleirum]

6 minutes ago, Moria Polonius said:

Or: " Excuse me Mr. Technical Specialist, those extra 3 3As were just me going for the creative exit bullet!"

 

Mr. Yuzuru salty Hanyu: *attaches 10 3As to a 4T* NOW GIMMIE DAT +3 GOE

[katonice]

 

3 hours ago, Forcefield said:

Okay so that 3A3A3A3A

I have a stupid question for anyone who understands the rules, keep in mind it's stupid and I don't really get the rules, can a skater jump extra jumps just as part of the choreo perhaps as long as the others planned passes are out of the way? I mean, even if they wouldn't for many reasons, just hypothetically. So like, otherwise his delayed axel will only be in an ex then?

 

Also, I think Yuzu did a 3-2-2 in RJ1. Is there any reason he doesn't tack an extra 2 at the end of his combos for extra points? Is it worth it? Is it even possible?

 

 

 

I think once quad novelty is over ISU might change rules to keep interest and hype by finally making bigger and harder combos a thing.

The answer is yes thay can. Evgenia did an extra jump as part of her final combo in the last Russian Nationals -- 3S-3T-3T. The last 3T in that combo didn't count because she already did 3F-3T and 2A-2T-2T earlier in the program. She just did it for the heck of it lol. 

 

[kaeryth]

22 minutes ago, katonice said:

 

The answer is yes thay can. Evgenia did an extra jump as part of her final combo in the last Russian Nationals -- 3S-3T-3T. The last 3T in that combo didn't count because she already did 3F-3T and 2A-2T-2T earlier in the program. She just did it for the heck of it lol. 

 

 

Hmmmmm.... might not be a good idea for Yuzu considering all his antis. He also considers ALL competitions seriously (even WTT LOL/SOB). I think that's why he goes crazy during galas and ice shows (not too much recently though which is frankly, a relief)

[katonice]

27 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

Hmmmmm.... might not be a good idea for Yuzu considering all his antis. He also considers ALL competitions seriously (even WTT LOL/SOB). I think that's why he goes crazy during galas and ice shows (not too much recently though which is frankly, a relief)

Well, if we convince him to think of it as a transition out of a jump lol...

[moni]

15 hours ago, Moria Polonius said:

I wonder if it'd be possible to do a 1.5 revolution euler? Anybody knows?

 

You mean 1.5 euler and landing forward? I don't think it's possible. 

1. ISU doesn't have a BV for 1.5 euler (= non-listed jump) and there's this rule: "If the jumps are connected with a non-listed jump, the element is called as a jump sequence."
2. Euler has to be landed on an inside edge but the axel take off is from an outside edge - that would be again only a sequence, not a combo because the take-off edge of the second (or third) jump has to be the same as the landing edge of the first jump.
3. When skaters land their jumps (backwards), the very first contact with ice is always with their toepick/ball of the foot and only then they transfer their weight to their backward edge. Toepick helps them to stop the rotation (together with arms and free leg) and helps them find their balance on the ice. If they landed on their toepick forwards that would result in a very hard fall on their belly. And landing on flat edge or even heel isn't an option either -  it's considered as a bad technique and is bad for knees/hips - same as in ballet. And even that would probably result in a hard fall - this time not on their belly but on their back/hip.

 

16 hours ago, Moria Polonius said:

But yeah, I wonder, if a skater did all his 8 jumping passes, could he do extra jumps as choreo sequence. Although, lol, I imagine a sequence of 4 3As after 8 jumping passes would be nigh impossible to pull off even for Yuzuru 3A God Hanyu.

There's this rule: "A jump with more than 2 revolutions is called and counted. The Choreo Sequence ends the moment this jump is executed."

So probably the only way is doing it at the end of choreo sequence after landing all 8 jumping passes. It's definitely not worth doing it. However, the delayed single axel would be nice to see.

[Moria Polonius]

4 hours ago, moni said:

 

You mean 1.5 euler and landing forward? I don't think it's possible. 

1. ISU doesn't have a BV for 1.5 euler (= non-listed jump) and there's this rule: "If the jumps are connected with a non-listed jump, the element is called as a jump sequence."
2. Euler has to be landed on an inside edge but the axel take off is from an outside edge - that would be again only a sequence, not a combo because the take-off edge of the second (or third) jump has to be the same as the landing edge of the first jump.
3. When skaters land their jumps (backwards), the very first contact with ice is always with their toepick/ball of the foot and only then they transfer their weight to their backward edge. Toepick helps them to stop the rotation (together with arms and free leg) and helps them find their balance on the ice. If they landed on their toepick forwards that would result in a very hard fall on their belly. And landing on flat edge or even heel isn't an option either -  it's considered as a bad technique and is bad for knees/hips - same as in ballet. And even that would probably result in a hard fall - this time not on their belly but on their back/hip.

 

There's this rule: "A jump with more than 2 revolutions is called and counted. The Choreo Sequence ends the moment this jump is executed."

So probably the only way is doing it at the end of choreo sequence after landing all 8 jumping passes. It's definitely not worth doing it. However, the delayed single axel would be nice to see.

 

 

Thank you for all the info, moni! My logic was , that if a 0.5 revolution loop is the euler, then why not 1.5 revolution? Not to connect to an axel, just as a connecting jump. I guess your point 3 answers that.

 

Huh, so the jump-extravaganza choreo sequence is out, unless we want to to be completely unrealistc. Good to know what the rulebook says. But then again, it'd be kinda cool if Yuzu just threw away a jump pass in order to show off, placements and anti-fans be damned, lol.