General Skating Chat

[Katt]

32 minutes ago, meoima said:

Technically, Polina's jumps are among the biggest in size, even bigger than Liza but Liza's technique is much purer and more effortless. The difference is really small though.

 

Yes I am chatting with Perform Live and he agrees that data by the Japanese "professor" is absurd. 

My point is, one can have bigger jump with faster rotation speed but only if you compare them with skater have similar size of jumps. I think Yuzuru has bigger 4S than Javi, and of course Yuzuru rotates faster but the difference is really small. Now if someone say Nathan and Shoma rotate faster but also jump bigger than Yuzuru and Javi, I would roll my eyes. 

 

[meoima]

11 minutes ago, Katt said:

My point is, one can have bigger jump with faster rotation speed but only if you compare them with skater have similar size of jumps. I think Yuzuru has bigger 4S than Javi, and of course Yuzuru rotates faster but the difference is really small. Now if someone say Nathan and Shoma rotate faster but also jump bigger than Yuzuru and Javi, I would roll my eyes. 

 

I mean even if you don't watch live, the jumps in video are good indication of how big someone's jumps are. Unless they're desperately trying to spread the wrong data...

[WinForPooh]

If skater A is consistently jumping higher and farther, and also rotating faster, than skater B; and skater B jumps quads; then plain logic dictates that skater A must be jumping almost-quints. Because skater A simply has to have more rotations in a jump than skater B in such a situation, since otherwise, they're staying airborne in space while simply fluttering their wings after completing the four rotations.

[Xen]

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

Funny thing is I think Shoma would take one look at this analysis and ask his professor: "are you high?"

Funny thing that someone might have wrote this thinking it'll help him, yet now it's probably doing more damage than good. Funny that the "bad rivalry" is more from media and those around Yuzu and Shoma than the two skaters themselves. And while it would be really great PR if media can realize how much cross-pollination exists between the fandoms of both skaters, and really utilize the fandom properly to boost both skaters, they're sadly more interested in stirring trouble than anything positive.

 

Anyways, I don't see a point in giving this article so much attention. Just a nice gesture to people to check Perform Live's own blog, which has also done analysis of Shoma's flip jumps (and I think it lists the height as 53 cm) in addition to Yuzu's 4Lz jump. Otherwise I fear it'll raise some people's fear hackles about "out of control Yuzu fans just attacking a nice random Japanese professor over an article." Especially if such people aren't very knowledgeable about skating, if I actually start arguing back.

 

Edit: 53 cm, link here for analysis of Shoma's 4Flip: http://perform-live.com/blog/video-analysis-of-figure-skating/164-how-to-do-a-quad-flip-by-shoma-uno-japan.html

[swanbeau]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

Anyways, I don't see a point in giving this article so much attention.[...]. Otherwise I fear it'll raise some people's fear hackles about "out of control Yuzu fans just attacking a nice random Japanese professor over an article." Especially if such people aren't very knowledgeable about skating, if I actually start arguing back.

i know exactly what you're talking about and i agree.

its sad though isnt it, that everytime an analysis about technical content or literally just counting corssovers which ppl can see for themselves, ppl dont want to talk about them. Granted this one's calculation is hilariously bad. but still. i find numbers, statistics, and the technical side of skating fascinating. so imagine my surprise when i found out that discussing these things need to be a bit hush hush. but eh whatever i guess.

[Xen]

28 minutes ago, swanbeau said:

i know exactly what you're talking about and i agree.

its sad though isnt it, that everytime an analysis about technical content or literally just counting corssovers which ppl can see for themselves, ppl dont want to talk about them. Granted this one's calculation is hilariously bad. but still. i find numbers, statistics, and the technical side of skating fascinating. so imagine my surprise when i found out that discussing these things need to be a bit hush hush. but eh whatever i guess.

No, it's not so much that figure skating is immune or allergic to statistics and objective numbers. It's that a very small minority is-and sadly are louder than other fans of the same fandom. I think most fans are not that blind. Just because skater A is your favorite does not mean skater A will, and should win all the time-that's irrational (a small part of me will insist that in Yuzu's case, though I will conceed ACI LP, that was a wreck, pretty but a wreckage).

 

While a balance of sport and art, we need to remember that there is a *sport* side to this that can be measured, objectively, which is what COP was trying to achieve. It's not fair to the skaters nor the system itself to ignore statistics/facts/numbers. Sure as heck, skaters themselves certainly don't ignore these things, otherwise why have video analysis/dartfish/stro-mo become part of most skater's training? And why sometimes I get pissed at Feds and ISU and um, yeah...

[EisElle]

Well, it's not as fanyus went on barricades about COR because Yuzu didn't got the gold (even tho it could be argued that some scoring was a bit ). We accepted that, we moved on, because if Yuzu makes mistakes and others perform better on the day (and they are all judged fairly) you can feel sad and kuyashii but that's it, those are the rules of the sport and only what happens on the day matters.

3 hours ago, WinForPooh said:

If skater A is consistently jumping higher and farther, and also rotating faster, than skater B; and skater B jumps quads; then plain logic dictates that skater A must be jumping almost-quints. Because skater A simply has to have more rotations in a jump than skater B in such a situation, since otherwise, they're staying airborne in space while simply fluttering their wings after completing the four rotations.

this made me laugh

 

 

OT at the moment, reposting this from Euro thread because I'm curious whether I'm just (not) seeing things or the rai commentator has memory issues

1 hour ago, LadyLou said:

Hey this is OT but italian guy, explaining bullet goe (in his own words) about delay in rotation says Takahashi was known for this. Is it true? Out of the programs I've seen of him, I hadn't noticed (but I haven't watched them in a while, maybe now I would pay attention to that)

(I'm sure Max would have used Polina as an example)

[xeyra]

Analysis are only accepted more easily if they make your favorite look good. Or if they're super objective. But it's hard to find analysis that don't have even a slight bias for or against because of the time involvement necessary for such analysis. I think the more objective is still those Dartfish jump analysis.

 

Also some analysis account only for certain aspects of skating, not all, so it's easier to dismiss if you don't care for what it says.

 

Also, to be sure, some of us here would probably be as dismissive of discussing analysis if Yuzu wasn't so good at these technical things. 

[Xen]

8 minutes ago, xeyra said:

Analysis are only accepted more easily if they make your favorite look good. Or if they're super objective. But it's hard to find analysis that don't have even a slight bias for or against because of the time involvement necessary for such analysis. I think the more objective is still those Dartfish jump analysis.

 

Also some analysis account only for certain aspects of skating, not all, so it's easier to dismiss if you don't care for what it says.

 

Also, to be sure, some of us here would probably be as dismissive of discussing analysis if Yuzu wasn't so good at these technical things. 

True to all three points. But I would argue that super objective isn't necessarily liked either-and you will get people arguing whether it is even "objective" since it doesn't put a favorite in a good light. You know the recent video counting steps/turns/crossovers? I brought it up in my skating group and a couple guys were outright dismissive that it was a "fanyu" thing, until I told them about PCS scores between Shoma, Nathan this season and Patrick and what the data actually says for all three in the video. Then they got a bit up in arms for the sake of Pchiddy.

 

We're so lucky to like someone who is so textbook. But that might be why we liked him in the first place.

And considering Yuzu had issues with his flip before, you could argue that a technically perfect skater might not really exist-or at least only flashes by once in a decade (or longer) that technical perfection is not the norm, so very rarely do you end up liking a skater due to their technical prowress. But considering that some like Yuzu's jumps better than Pchiddy or Javi's jumps, is liking someone's technical abilities even objective?

[meoima]

7 hours ago, Katt said:

My point is, one can have bigger jump with faster rotation speed but only if you compare them with skater have similar size of jumps. I think Yuzuru has bigger 4S than Javi, and of course Yuzuru rotates faster but the difference is really small. Now if someone say Nathan and Shoma rotate faster but also jump bigger than Yuzuru and Javi, I would roll my eyes. 

 

2

It is relevant to compare if the skaters have similar BODY SIZES. 

 

For example, Polina's jumps are surely among the biggest in ladies but she is also among the tallest ladies. So it makes sense to compare her jumps to tallest ladies like Carolina Kostner and Maria Sotskova (same body type). 

 

Liza's jumps are surely among the biggest but we should take into account she is quite a small lady, much smaller than Polina. Her huge jumps + pure technique make it actually more impressive in this view. 

 

Jumps, height, speed... have a lot to do with the body type. So for someone like Polina to have huge jumps, it's inevitable she rotates slower than Satoko (who jumps smaller) as Polina has more power in her legs, but also it is inevitable for Satoko to rotate faster than Polina as Satoko’s body is tiny. 

 

Yagudin's jumps might be the biggest ever in male skating. But his rotational speed was not as fast as Plushenko because their body types were very different. At their prime, Yagudin was a powerhouse type of jumper while Plushenko was more of a faster rotator. 

 

If they compare Yuzuru + Nathan or Boyang who have similar body type and height, it would have made more sense. But they have to compare Yuzuru to someone who is quite smaller with dubious numbers, that's why their numbers speak BIAS and WRONG. 

 

Think of Polina vs Satoko. It is impossible for Satoko to jump bigger than Polina, also impossible for Polina to rotate faster or as fast as Satoko. Because it's their body type. 

 

That's why it is pretty much illogical, if in a quad (4 rotation) for a skater who is QUITE SMALLER than Yuzuru to jump higher, bigger and rotate faster than Yuzuru especially in the same jump.

 

If you find anyone who is SMALLER than Yuzuru, jump BIGGER than Yuzuru, stay on air LONGER than Yuzuru with more ice coverage, that person might be landing a QUINT. 

 

This is not about Yuzuru vs anyone, I will just react the same if someone says Marin Honda jump bigger than Polina. It is just pure common sense for a normal skating fan to point out how wrong this kind of "data" is. 

[Katt]

2 hours ago, meoima said:

It is relevant to compare if the skaters have similar BODY SIZES. 

You're right. I totally forgot about this 

[theonecurriedplush]

6 hours ago, Xen said:

I fear it'll raise some people's fear hackles about "out of control Yuzu fans just attacking a nice random Japanese professor over an article."

I really wouldn't worry about this. I know there's some of this, and it feels like a big deal, but it comes with the territory of defending. On the whole the support of the fans defending words have been more of a help, a good thing. It really has. Imagine if no one stood up. Who cares about a few yuzu-fans-attacking comments! All in all, drop in the bucket, it doesn't stick in the whole scheme of things, i assure you.

[Aotoshiro]

14 minutes ago, theonecurriedplush said:

I really wouldn't worry about this. I know there's some of this, and it feels like a big deal, but it comes with the territory of defending. On the whole the support of the fans defending words have been more of a help, a good thing. It really has. Imagine if no one stood up. Who cares about a few yuzu-fans-attacking comments! All in all, drop in the bucket, it doesn't stick in the whole scheme of things, i assure you.

I unfortunately have to disagree, even if we meander into territory of psychology rather than actual skating. The toxic/hurtful/angry feelings stood out more to a human brain than the pleasant/happy/relaxed, because while the latter says 'All's clear mate!' the former says 'Storm incoming, something's wrong!' and as such, get more reaction. By that human nature, obviously hurtful/angry/cursing/whichever-else-negative-reaction-invoking  comment will get more attention than the bucket of positive/feedbacking messages. And if it can somehow be connected with your unfave, all the better  since to the need to react to the negative emotion adds up the mean part of human that wants to rub salt into disliked people's wounds...

 

...Unless you're at Planet Hanyu's main threads, where the gravity and everything works opposite and paprikas are calmly overlooked in favor of honey and spread eagles and sparkles in the Overlord new costume.

 

Also, people attacking skaters without any actual back up in logic/reality...actually scratch that. People attacking hard working skaters instead of being neutral/giving productive feedback shouldn't be called anybody's fans.

[EisElle]

RE: the unfamous article I know most has been already said, it has been said like hours ago, but now I have time to write my bit, so bear with me

 

So that article is saying:

skater A has bigger jumps than skater B, which means he has more airtime.

skater A rotates faster than B

Both are doing 4 rotations

if rotational speed = turns per second (or any other unit of time) = n°of rotation / airtime

it means that  

                               n°of rotation = airtime * speed

skater A is doing n°rotation = longer than B * bigger than B

so the same article is telling me skater A is be doing more rotation than B

 

Those two things just cannot coexist.

 

The End.

 

Of course there are many more issues that have been already mentioned, like the lack of info about the method and the sample chosen, and the choice of the sample itself. tbw, a one jump-sample isn't nearly enough to make any conclusive analysis. Not to mention that the numbers are joke.

If that "analysis" had been posted by a fan on a forum it would have been called a troll, because that's exactly what it is. But it was published by a supposedly trustworthy professional. Too bad "ipse dixit" doesn't work when you have numbers and evidence against you.
So, one of these two must be true: 1) this professor is a fraud and can't do his job and doesn't even know how to do his job (doubtful) or 2)he has 0 work ethics.

Either way, he should just be fired. If that's the kind of people who help Shoma with his jumps, I'm not surprised he has hard time getting better or that he needs to go to USA to have some serious jumping training.

I can't see any purpose in that kind of article if not to shade Yuzuru on a level that not even NA press has reached (or dreamed. Or maybe they dreamed of that, but couldn't find anything they could use). If even the US press couldn't jump in and criticize the quality of Yuzuru's elements (of any of his elements) and they only try and play the inconsistency card or at most "he has hard time keeping up with Nathan on quads" (or scoff at Pooh), you know any other criticism has not even the faintest basis, or they would been already attacking full force by now.

Just till yesterday I was thinking about how glad I was that jpn media were, after all, still supportive of Yuzu and not trying to force the rivalry with Shoma anymore, I was even feeling bad for having been so distrustful, but this is disheartening. And counter-productive, because Shoma, among the top 6 or 7 male skaters, happens to be the very one with the smallest jumps and more questionable technique (yes, Javi has some questionable take-offs himself, but he jumps big).
I understand that they want to support their skater, but why like this? Why don't they just trust their skater a little bit more? And actually help him to work on his weaknesses? without e.g. suggesting him self-harming temporary measures like moving the placement of his blades, that caused more strain on his joints and pain. 

I know Shoma has a great relationship with Miyoko and she seems a nice and kind lady, but I really wish he could change environment. I remember watching a documentary in july, where he talked about his blades, and there was this professor that said that they took care of Shoma to prevent injury and so on, and I felt still a bit doubtful but relieved that they were not overlooking anything and knew what they were doing, but now I have this terrible feeling that that professor was the same professor who gave that idiocy of an article to the press and I just want Shoma far, far away from him

 

 

On a side note, I'm not sure "height" of the skater is the main factor in how high skaters can jump (and how much air time they can achieve), but of course it can factor on e.g. rotation speed (and so the minumum air time they would need), if we talk about a skater like Caro vs one like Satoko, who is not only shorter but also way slimmer.

iirc it was mentioned (here?) that the fiber composition of your muscles counts a lot. It allows some people to get more "spring" on e.g. jumps, and iirc in part it can be modified with proper training but in part is also genetic (I don't remember where I've read this tho).

So there are short people who can jump big. Anastasia Tarakanova is listed at 1.52 m of height, Satoko at 1.49, so only 3 cm of difference. I would expect they could potentially jump quite the same, having almost the same height, but no, there is a huge difference in the height and ice coverage of their jumps. Same with Sasha Trusova, she is small and rotates fast but she doesn't jump as small as Satoko (she doesn't jump small at all). Rika Kihira is listed 1.52, too, and she manages to do a 3A and she isn't even as thin as Satton (meaning she probably can't rotate as fast), so obviously she needs to get much more air time and she does.

Mika is 1.67 m, which isn't the highest among men, but he jumps really really high. So imo it's still possible to make jump comparisons among skaters with different body type. Tho the "visual impact" can be very different depending on body type, of course. Am I explaining myself?

Of course, body type (meaning height but imo most important shape and...let's call it "radius") has an obvious mathematical correlation with rotational speed. The thinner the axis, the faster the rotation. About that there's nothing much skaters can do, if they are already fit (and obviously athletes are fit, it's not like they can lose some fat here or there and reduce their "radius"). So it isn't surprising that Satoko, being so "small" (in radius, an in weight too) can rotate really fast. Faster, for example, than Wakaba that has a completely different body. But it's because of their muscles and bone structure e.g. width of hips (you can't make your hips shorter, they're just the minimum radius you'll have and you have to work with that).

 

 

 

[theonecurriedplush]

6 hours ago, Aotoshiro said:

I unfortunately have to disagree, even if we meander into territory of psychology rather than actual skating. The toxic/hurtful/angry feelings stood out more to a human brain than the pleasant/happy/relaxed, because while the latter says 'All's clear mate!' the former says 'Storm incoming, something's wrong!' and as such, get more reaction. By that human nature, obviously hurtful/angry/cursing/whichever-else-negative-reaction-invoking  comment will get more attention than the bucket of positive/feedbacking messages. And if it can somehow be connected with your unfave, all the better  since to the need to react to the negative emotion adds up the mean part of human that wants to rub salt into disliked people's wounds...

 

...Unless you're at Planet Hanyu's main threads, where the gravity and everything works opposite and paprikas are calmly overlooked in favor of honey and spread eagles and sparkles in the Overlord new costume.

 

Also, people attacking skaters without any actual back up in logic/reality...actually scratch that. People attacking hard working skaters instead of being neutral/giving productive feedback shouldn't be called anybody's fans.

I had difficulty following, but if you equal responding and defending, to giving a nasty retort, I understand what you’re saying. I just think it’s not necessarily wrong or detrimental to give a differing and honest opinion (and perhaps more enlightening than one would ever know!) and not to cower under some threat that you would be called something.