General Skating Chat

[meoima]

Here is another interesting analysis of Mai's program vs Zhenia Med's program: http://perform-live.com/analysis.html

 

You see the number of crossovers and number of rotation by skating (turns, steps) are where Zhenia Med is superior to Mai. 

[xeyra]

8 minutes ago, meoima said:

I do not think he says lower revolutions by spinning is better, it just means that Yuzuru can hit the level of the spin faster than others (or that Yuzuru feels he hits the level enough). And it varies, for example, I think Javi does more spin revolutions to ensure that he gets the level done.

 

And rotations by skating means the total number of times Yuzuru turns his body or simple, the number of times he uses "turns and steps". 

 

Thanks, it was more or less what I thought those things meant but I wanted to confirm because sometimes english is tricky. 

[PomeloPooh]

The impression I got from the perfect lutz's in the op is that they're really "easy," with a delayed rotation particularly obvious from my angle and no interruption in the flow whatsoever. The first I saw from the side and it stunned me with its sheer magnificence. The second I saw from the relatively far diagonal front, and I had to replay my video several times to tell that it wasn't a triple - it just looked so easy and with so much room to spare.

[kaeryth]

Thank you to everyone who indulged my request for live reports and impressions. I'm very happy (and jealous) you got to witness the birth of baby 4Lz, new-ish chopin costume /LOL/, and the most wonderful Notte Stellata and swanyu gala shenanigans!

[kiches]

Going back to Boyang and Nathan’s lutzes really quick. I saw them do their lutzes one right after the other nearly side by side in the same spot during practice (I may have even captured it in my fancam, would need to check) but it’s no contest. Boyang’s is a monster. 

 

I wish I could’ve seen Yuzu’s 4Lz, I had been hoping he’d bring it at ACI but it wasn’t mean to to be. I’m just glad he landed it in Russia and hope to see many more beautiful quad lutzes from him. 

[MrPudding]

Patrick NOOOO

[ralucutzagy]

The 4Lz guys!

 

[EisElle]

19 minutes ago, ralucutzagy said:

The 4Lz guys!

 

So many

I'm watching on my phone so I can't see the faces (still I recognize Boyang, Yuzuru, Nathan and Mika) but some of these look prerotated/UR  but they are tiny on my screen and the video isn't HD, so maybe I'm seeing things....

 

[ralucutzagy]

12 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

So many

I'm watching on my phone so I can't see the faces (still I recognize Boyang, Yuzuru, Nathan and Mika) but some of these look prerotated/UR  but they are tiny on my screen and the video isn't HD, so maybe I'm seeing things....

 

There's Rippon, Aliev, Zhou and Samarin, too ... I really hope Yuzu will straighten his Lutz axis soon ... he has quite a pretty one when it's done right 

[Yatagarasu]

This men's event and Patrick's potential issues may really throw a wrench into the Team Event at the Olympics. That medal potential may energize him but it may not. He already has one and considering his state of mind, well. Hm.

[EisElle]

Whops I had totally forgotten Rippon

I remembered the two russians and I think Vincent is the one making the rippon (an ugly rippon but I can forgive that...almost ), I'm so sorry Adam I like you a lot please forgive me

 

I'm so nervous about what Patrick will do which is kinda funny, considering I couldn't care less about him until a few months ago...I feel karma rearing its ugly head to punish me

But of course he should do what he feels right. If he wants to compete then I believe he can pull himself together, but if competing becames a burden to the point he does that because he has to, I'd rather have him r****e

 

[Joey]

4 hours ago, LadyLou said:

So many

I'm watching on my phone so I can't see the faces (still I recognize Boyang, Yuzuru, Nathan and Mika) but some of these look prerotated/UR  but they are tiny on my screen and the video isn't HD, so maybe I'm seeing things....

 

 

Regarding PR & UR, just IMO: pre-rotated ones are by Dima, Vincent and Alexander Samarin (Dimas and Alex' aren't that bad though, more borderline IMO). The others are fine on the take off (I'm actually surprised Adams looks this good, respect!). URed definitely Adam and Dima (they're basically pushing for a double carrot...), Vincent and Alexander too, but not as badly. Pretty clear to see IMO that a good quad does need a lot of height, as clearly Boyang, Mika & Yuzu have the best lutzes regarding rotation and technique, and also the most height (although obviously better technique allows you to get more height too). Only Nathans is smaller but still clean, he makes up with insane rotational speed though (and the jump isn't small itself, rather average).

 

It's still hilarious we have so much more 4Lz's then 4Lo's & 4F's!

[EisElle]

Maybe men aren't as thrilled about 4F because they dislike that inside edge

Most of the quad lutzers don't have strong 3F, right? The only exception being Nathan (amazing). I don't know about Vincent's 4F (in truth I don't know about Adam Dima and samarin).

And score-wise the Lutz pays much more. So imo even if the Lutz is harder, for male skaters it's easier to train that than a 4F.

4Lo is hard. That ISU is even thinking of lowering its bv so much more than 4Fis a shame. I'd really like some scientific study on the quads. If you really want to change BV at least make sure to reward the real difficulty. If per chance it will be proved that the loop is easier than the 4F I'm fine with that. But give me some datas (and I don't think that the number of people doing a jump is enough, without other evidences. As I said, the Lutz has way bigger reward at the moment. Now if Lz, F and Lo all had same BV then the number of people could reflect difficulty, of course people would go for the easiest one).

I'd like to point out I've never skated myself, my opinion is purely academical 

[Joey]

Haha, yes most men prefer the lutz to the flip in general, in triple version already. Nathan seems to do quite equally well with both, which really is something unusal and amazing. Boyang or Zu have a good flip still, but I couldn't imagine either going for a 4F. Mika f.e. doesn't even do the 3F at all. In general, most skaters prefer one of the 2 and it's quite evident throughout their career, and I think possible explanations range from the shape of the legs & hips playing a part, to generally trying to push for the lutz more because higher BV, so if capable people will have a strong lutz and the flip suffers by comparison. But tbh, I have no idea about that myself at all. I just get why being good at both his hard, the end

 

As for flip vs. loop - I have the same feeling that the 4Lo might actually be harder then the 4F. Because you have no additional toe pick to vault yourself up, and it is definitely harder to get good GOE on it, because the mechanics make it more of an up-and-down jump: it's harder to get good ice coverage and a good running edge coming out, at least for triples. Regarding Zu, I do think the 4Lo is his "weakest" quad GOE wise. It's more difficult to say with Shoma, I actually think his 4Lo is way better then his 4F, but the comparison is difficult because of his hybrid technique on the flip. And it will likely take years until any real studies are done to determine the BVs there. ISU just goes with triples and then upgrades all BV for quads, but honestly, it would make sense to me that a 3Lo could be easier then a 4F, but a 4Lo more difficult then a 4F. Guess work here though.

[Katt]

I agree that 4Lo might a bit harder than 4F because its hard to get enough height to make the rotation and its easy go to off axis too. I read somewhere that its harder to put other jump after the loop, maybe thats why we saw when some ladies miss the combo, they only recover by putting 2T after 3lo. With Yuzu, I think his 4lo doesn't have the flow as his other quads yet. But its quite a consistent quad for him last season so I hope it just went off a bit at COR.  In the open practice at TCC, I saw his 4lo improve abit compare to last season, more height and better flow. So, please show it  Yuzu