General Yuzuru Chat

[makebelieveup]

13 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

https://ameblo.jp/ecovail/entry-12455638484.html

 

A good translation of this interview...I didn't totally understand it previously but now I do. Yuzu's mindset before and after Saitama and how he thought he could win with two clean programs but came to the realization that he couldn't because of the way GOEs are awarded in the new system. 

[Plumqueen]

So, please correct me if I’m wrong bc that translation was a little confusing to me. 

From what I previously understood, he was impressed by Nathans’s current National Championship results, but it wasn’t until actually competing with him at Worlds that he came to the realization that he had to raise his base value in order to win. Is this correct?  

And, if he hadn’t had an injury that sidelined him and would have allowed him to compete at Grand Prix Finals, he might have understood this sooner?  (my interpretation).

All, I know is that he is a breathtaking skater with grace and majesty. I broke down and watched Nathan’s Worlds FS today for the first time and was so disappointed.  It was so awkward especially his hands at the end, the music reminded me of Patrick’s blah choices and the costume looked like a two piece Under Armor Training outfit.  Then, I made the mistake of reading the comments from his fans. 

Yet, this interview has given me hope that even though I thought Yuzu understood the impact of the new judging system, he really understands it now. 

Im excited to see what he does with this new understanding. I guess I just thought he had someone to bounce his ideas off of that would have pointed out the new GOE/PCS issues. 

Anyway, he’s the GOAT, and I’m excited he’s taking on the challenge to once again raise the bar. 

I’m praying for his ankle, knees and back and hope he finds the way to make himself happy again with his performances. 

Any other insights would be appreciated especially if I misunderstood the translation.

 

[ruruzest]

 

[faeline]

Hanyueconomy! 

 

At this point now it’s just posting random stuff until he reappears yeah?

[hoodie axel]

Well, if Yuzuru had gone clean in the SP, they'd have inflated Chen's score less and given Yuzuru the lead after the SP. He'd have had more momentum going into the LP, letting him get away a little more with the same scratchy landings he had there, and Chen would have been the "only if Hanyu falls" replacement. Would have won.

 

While it is true that more BV will give him more ground for mistakes, I'm not sure what the momentum aspect of an event will do for him or anyone when a (big) mistake does happen. Chen and Hanyu are considered nearly equal at this point, and they don't care if one fails, because they'll have the other (although when both clean, it will be Hanyu). Chen's momentum can be quelled a little if he's beaten at the GPF again (he's had a free ride for two seasons now), and even more if he places below second there.

 

I always wonder if the skaters know that the judging is bogus.

[freyaminnie]

1 hour ago, Plumqueen said:

So, please correct me if I’m wrong bc that translation was a little confusing to me. 

From what I previously understood, he was impressed by Nathans’s current National Championship results, but it wasn’t until actually competing with him at Worlds that he came to the realization that he had to raise his base value in order to win. Is this correct?  

And, if he hadn’t had an injury that sidelined him and would have allowed him to compete at Grand Prix Finals, he might have understood this sooner?  (my interpretation).

All, I know is that he is a breathtaking skater with grace and majesty. I broke down and watched Nathan’s Worlds FS today for the first time and was so disappointed.  It was so awkward especially his hands at the end, the music reminded me of Patrick’s blah choices and the costume looked like a two piece Under Armor Training outfit.  Then, I made the mistake of reading the comments from his fans. 

Yet, this interview has given me hope that even though I thought Yuzu understood the impact of the new judging system, he really understands it now. 

Im excited to see what he does with this new understanding. I guess I just thought he had someone to bounce his ideas off of that would have pointed out the new GOE/PCS issues. 

Anyway, he’s the GOAT, and I’m excited he’s taking on the challenge to once again raise the bar. 

I’m praying for his ankle, knees and back and hope he finds the way to make himself happy again with his performances. 

Any other insights would be appreciated especially if I misunderstood the translation.

 

The scores at USNats wasn't supposed to happen in ISU competition anyway so maybe that's why he's still sure he can beat that skates (Nathan going mostly clean) with his lower BV program. 

 

However as we can see at Worlds (and WTT), judges do have their ways of scoring that bizarre the hell out of us (and him). It would have help if he was able to compete with a pretty clean Nathan in GPF just to see how the judges was scoring them together in the same competition. However, Nathan wasn't able cleanly land most of his jumps at earlier ISU comps as well so he might not have guessed about the GOE range and how it have a lot of effect.

 

IMO, it's like when you study for exam, GPF is like midterm exam where you get idea of how your teacher like to questions and how much they score you for how you answer them. So Yuzu skipping GPF was like going into final exam (aka. Worlds) with all the knowledge you have been study but not a glimpse of what will be asked. So he guess the question wrongly and wasn't prepared for that, therefore missed the mark.  

 

About the injury derailed his plan for Tech improvement, I think he was thinking about this even before OWG 2018. After adding 2 quads in SP and 3 quads in FS in 2015-2016, he added 4Lo from 2016-2017 and 4Lz in 2017-2018 cause he was sure that upping the Tech BV was gonna be necessary in the future (just luckily not by OWG'18). He know his advantages in PCS will disappear one day when the younger ones get better (cause they will get better) so in order to have an 'absolute win' where if everybody else go clean, he will still wins, he needs the BV. It's just that the injury from 4Lz in NHK causing him to go backward and have to slowly gain his quads back and still not able to do 4Lz in 2018-2019 seasons. And with this season that the 4Lo also set him back on his quest to pursue legendary 4A again. 

 

I think now that he know how the landscape is, I'm sure he's looking for ways to be able compete and wins with the skates that he's proud of. Just hope that his ankle and body will grant him his wish to fulfill them. 

[Anki]

3 hours ago, Plumqueen said:

So, please correct me if I’m wrong bc that translation was a little confusing to me. 

From what I previously understood, he was impressed by Nathans’s current National Championship results, but it wasn’t until actually competing with him at Worlds that he came to the realization that he had to raise his base value in order to win. Is this correct?  

And, if he hadn’t had an injury that sidelined him and would have allowed him to compete at Grand Prix Finals, he might have understood this sooner?  (my interpretation).

All, I know is that he is a breathtaking skater with grace and majesty. I broke down and watched Nathan’s Worlds FS today for the first time and was so disappointed.  It was so awkward especially his hands at the end, the music reminded me of Patrick’s blah choices and the costume looked like a two piece Under Armor Training outfit.  Then, I made the mistake of reading the comments from his fans. 

Yet, this interview has given me hope that even though I thought Yuzu understood the impact of the new judging system, he really understands it now. 

Im excited to see what he does with this new understanding. I guess I just thought he had someone to bounce his ideas off of that would have pointed out the new GOE/PCS issues. 

Anyway, he’s the GOAT, and I’m excited he’s taking on the challenge to once again raise the bar. 

I’m praying for his ankle, knees and back and hope he finds the way to make himself happy again with his performances. 

Any other insights would be appreciated especially if I misunderstood the translation.

 

 

Under the new rules, the BV difference between 4Lz and 4T isn't just the BV points, but also the inherent GOE scaling potential (which got widened by the +5 system). In other words, on paper, Yuzu's FS BV might only be 3 point less than Nathan, but under an all clean situation, due to 4Lz scales higher than 4T, the inherent BV difference is closer to 5 points.  Add the fact the judges are clearly adding brownie PCS points for successful 4Lz, the difference is even greater.  I think this is what Yuzu is referring to, that the inherent BV difference has been enlarged through GOE/PCS  under the new system.         

 

I don't think Hanyu didn't realise he had to raise his BV to win until Worlds. That is why he added the 4Lz in the 17/18 season and was planning to add the 4A  in 18/19 - he was never going to let Nathan run away with BV advantages but injury totally got in the way. Nathan is not the impetus for him to keep improving (as some NA fans like to claim), Yuzu has always  been upping his technical arsenal every year long before Chen came. This season he was the only top skater to actually introduce something new - the 4T3A.  I do think he held out a small hope that if he goes clean, his PCS will make it (since given his injuries, it wasn't possible to add BV prior to Worlds) - only to get the shock of how much the judges was willing to raise Nathan's PCS out of nowhere. 

 

Him participating in GPF wouldn't make a difference to BV or assisted in understanding the judging more because Nathan was a mess at GPF (he scored much lower than Hanyu's usual GPF scores & GP Helsinki). Honestly,  if Yuzu hadn't been injured, barring some weird mental breakdown, he would have won GPF based on how other men fared. Him participating and winning though could have at least slowed down the PCS growth for Chen. 

[Ashley2162018]

After reading the blog post of ecovail, I just realized that not just Yuzu but all the men competing with only stable quad toes or sals are in a disadvantage.

Even if a skater has both toe and sal but the competitor has quad lutzes and flips unless underotated (and yeah we know they are not calling it) , the lutz and flip of mediocore GOE (say 3) can still be equivalent or higher than magnificient toe or sal.

I was initiall thinking if you get all 5's it will be like:

quad toeloop: 9.5+5=14.5 but in reality 9.5+4.75=14.25

Mediocore GOE:

quad Lutz: 11.5+3=14.5 in reality 11.5+3.45=14.95

Its really saddening because some of the guys that I also like watching only has either the Sal or Toe. Now they have to pressure themselves too.

So what was the ISU saying that this system awards artistry?

If it was the case then why double the perks of difficult jumps? The higher base value plus hgher GOE equivalent?

They should have just increased the BV of spins and step sequences then it would have been more related to artistry.

But what's done is done right?

 

 

[wpisces]

21 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

Well, if Yuzuru had gone clean in the SP, they'd have inflated Chen's score less and given Yuzuru the lead after the SP. He'd have had more momentum going into the LP, letting him get away a little more with the same scratchy landings he had there, and Chen would have been the "only if Hanyu falls" replacement. Would have won.

 

While it is true that more BV will give him more ground for mistakes, I'm not sure what the momentum aspect of an event will do for him or anyone when a (big) mistake does happen. Chen and Hanyu are considered nearly equal at this point, and they don't care if one fails, because they'll have the other (although when both clean, it will be Hanyu). Chen's momentum can be quelled a little if he's beaten at the GPF again (he's had a free ride for two seasons now), and even more if he places below second there.

 

I always wonder if the skaters know that the judging is bogus.

Not really. Yuzuru would have taken the lead but judges still might have inflated Nathan's SP score so that the fight between two of them in FS would more exciting. 

 

I agree with the latter. Potentially, Yuzuru with the same ( or almost the same ) BV should have the egde over Nathan because he is superior on every aspect. But realistically with Chen getting amazingly high PCS and GOEs, both of them is nearly equal. 

 

[hoodie axel]

1 hour ago, wpisces said:

Not really

Yes, really. If you've watched how judging works, this is exactly what would have happened. When Fernandez was considered second best (like with his performance at the Olympics) he was placed 4 points behind (Unless you consider that "close for excitement" which I can't help). The judges would have clinged onto Chen's inferior quality if Yuzuru had delivered, his place is still second in the judges' eyes, but very close. He hadn't even exceeded 45 PCS before this, IIRC, and even here he couldn't even cross or approach 110, which is where Yuzuru would have been with the 4S. That's already 3 points while still considering the judges doubting his ability to deliver in the LP. The momentum within events has always worked like this.

[twitwi]

On 4/21/2019 at 8:12 AM, LourdesMoon said:

The CBC live stream (with PJ, Carol, and Kurt) , for anyone who's curious, mentioned Yuzu's amazing presence on the ice and how he's magical (for maybe 5 to 10 secs) but didn't really say much else.

 

The specific quote was in regards to how Kurt doesn't think athleticism is influencing the marks too much (LOL) because, "we have seen skaters come up who could quad, easily and beautifully, and they did not rise to the top, they were most often suppressed by someone like Yuzuru Hanyu who had a magic, who had a flair with the blade, who stood at centre ice and like... (Plushenko)... (paraphrased: could control the crowd)" etc. 

 

Note the use of past tense (had) which is most likely not intentional but as an English Major/Teacher it was hard for me not to say anything.

 

So only watch if you want to hear some 20-something minutes of discourse about Shoma's arms during landings, Vincent NOT under-rotating (because Kurt gave him some helpful tips and because this season has improved his confidence), the French Ice Dance team having very subjective scoring (although deserved), and just some general fluff about hard-working skaters. 

 

EDIT: That photo promo really feels like a let down now.

 

okay, i finally got some time (during working and set this as my working BGM) to watch this.

And i was shocked, what did he imply? Yuzu didn't have a easy and beautiful quads? and did he mean in some competitions he didn't deserve to win but anyway he won because this "magic"

 

aside from this, I thought I heard kurt said something like " we should only have french ice dance team and nathan chen's skate"

the world  is even worse than i thought...

[Anki]

Correct me if I am wrong, but in most Nathan and Yuzu encounters - the winner of the SP end up wining the overall competition. Even when the person who lost the SP did a better FP,  the judges don't let things turn around easily (e.g. GPF 2016, RoC 2017, and I will even say Worlds 2019 - had judges marked GOE/PCS appropriately and not wrongly call the UR, Yuzu could have won the FS at least).  That's the impact of who the judges decided to be the first for a competition from the starting impression.  And the main reason for Yuzu's excessively low GOE in Worlds 2017 because after the SP the judges decided Javi was the winner already - they were not ready for Yuzu to spoil that hence they held down his GOE to make room. Had Javi not bombed the FS who knows what crazy GOE and PCS they would have thrown out (the ones they did give were already crazy though). Which is why it is imperative for Yuzu to win the SP no matter what, as it almost decides the winner barring a complete meltdown from Nathan in the FS. 

[twitwi]

8 minutes ago, Anki said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but in most Nathan and Yuzu encounters - the winner of the SP end up wining the overall competition. Even when the person who lost the SP did a better FP,  the judges don't let things turn around easily (e.g. GPF 2016, RoC 2017, and I will even say Worlds 2019 - had judges marked GOE/PCS appropriately and not wrongly call the UR, Yuzu could have won the FS at least).  That's the impact of who the judges decided to be the first for a competition from the starting impression.  And the main reason for Yuzu's excessively low GOE in Worlds 2017 because after the SP the judges decided Javi was the winner already - they were not ready for Yuzu to spoil that hence they held down his GOE to make room. Had Javi not bombed the FS who knows what crazy GOE and PCS they would have thrown out (the ones they did give were already crazy though). Which is why it is imperative for Yuzu to win the SP no matter what, as it almost decides the winner barring a complete meltdown from Nathan in the FS. 

they could make nathan win anyway with a somehow fair score since he is 12+ ahead in short, but they just give him 10 points more after the long I can't find any excuse to justify the score in WC2019 FS.

[LourdesMoon]

11 minutes ago, twitwi said:

okay, i finally got some time (during working and set this as my working BGM) to watch this.

And i was shocked, what did he imply? Yuzu didn't have a easy and beautiful quads? and did he mean in some competitions he didn't deserve to win but anyway he won because this "magic"

 

aside from this, I thought I heard kurt said something like " we should only have french ice dance team and nathan chen's skate"

the world  is even worse than i thought...

 

I don't know if I'd go that far because Kurt has a tendency to say things that can be taken out of context. I remember when he reacted to the idea that Yuzu hadn't won two GPs in a row as something super shocking and that he thought he should've won more. He also said that "he's [Yuzu] had more luck at Olympics than Worlds"  which implies that it only took luck...I don't think he means any of it. It's just how he speaks. I remember he got a lot of backlash for the first comment about Yuzu's lack of medals and people sent a lot of tweets his way to the point where he had to address it by saying he didn't mean it in that manner and that he loves Yuzu a great deal.

 

BUT...he does get on the Quad hype train A LOT. He has blatantly ignored problems that Shoma, Nathan, and now Vincent have showcased with their quads in the past. Shoma is one he ignores because his style is just very appealing and it's gotten ignored by the judges so I suppose to not confuse viewership, they don't say anything unless the marks suggest that they should say something. Nathan has gotten a major pass because he has been dubbed the "Quad King" in North America (first) and Kurt has a connection with American skaters due to his past in Professional Skating and Stars on Ice. He appreciates Nathan's athleticism and as I've said before, probably felt for Nathan when he had the Olympic mishap in the Short program reminiscent of his own. It's fine to love Nathan's skating...no problem there, but he's said that he has the complete package, deserves his marks, and used very similar praises about Yuzu for Nathan in the WTT 2019 commentary. For example suggesting that Nathan's strengths lie in his GOE (???), which it never did because GOE used to rely more on transitions, landing positions, and integration in the program which we don't see from Nathan. Now that GOE's first main bullets rely on height, distance and good jump position, Nathan's GOE can't really be questioned as much as it once was. Anyway...the reason Vincent gets a pass, as we've learned in the live season recap is that Kurt has been working with him. The personal bias shouldn't influence how he disregards Vincent's under-rotations but he DOES??? 

 

I've said before that I'm Canadian, and I love Kurt. But his misinformation right now is ruining how audiences view the men's discipline. It isn't as well-balanced as he says it is...by buying into the narrative that Nathan is now the "chosen one," Kurt is allowing people to continue to believe the grading is fair. I really don't know what to say to that because I had high hopes that this recap would at least just be fluff about everyone's efforts this year, but it gave me more reason to question CBC commentary (at least in the Men's discipline). Carol seems more fair and aware of how Ice Dance is going. 

 

Also...I predicted this before but looked like a pessimist...but using Yuzu's picture and then talking about him for 5 seconds was...kinda low?

[LourdesMoon]

11 minutes ago, Anki said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but in most Nathan and Yuzu encounters - the winner of the SP end up wining the overall competition. Even when the person who lost the SP did a better FP,  the judges don't let things turn around easily (e.g. GPF 2016, RoC 2017, and I will even say Worlds 2019 - had judges marked GOE/PCS appropriately and not wrongly call the UR, Yuzu could have won the FS at least).  That's the impact of who the judges decided to be the first for a competition from the starting impression.  And the main reason for Yuzu's excessively low GOE in Worlds 2017 because after the SP the judges decided Javi was the winner already - they were not ready for Yuzu to spoil that hence they held down his GOE to make room. Had Javi not bombed the FS who knows what crazy GOE and PCS they would have thrown out (the ones they did give were already crazy though). Which is why it is imperative for Yuzu to win the SP no matter what, as it almost decides the winner barring a complete meltdown from Nathan in the FS. 

 

I agree with you. I'll also add, that almost every time he's lost to Nathan it has been because of a Quad Salchow. Those things really ruin his groove. In 4CC 2017, he popped the Quad Salchow combo in the short and long (but did his Yolo comeback in the LP), at RoC 2017 it was the Quad Loop that he popped in the Short I believe, but the Quad Salchow still gave him some trouble in the Long (he didn't complete the combo - which might've made a difference) AND at WC 2017 the Quad Salchow in the Short and Long program were the things which brought his mark down. SOOOO...can we do some voodoo for the Salchow to behave or...???