General Yuzuru Chat

[Nutmeg]

29 minutes ago, wpisces said:

 

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I do think his expressions for Origin would be suitable IF the program were to portray a demon or villain. But because it is not as far as I'm concerned, I find his expressions confusing. Besides his expressions, there must be something preventing me from being connected to the program. I can't make out what it is exactly but unlike other programs( from costume, music, to choreo,.. they are all in line with a certain theme) it seems Origin's package (theme, choreography, music, costumes, expressions,... ) lacked of cohesion which made its meaning/ concept vague. For example, what's the connection between a program about his origin and a program tribute to Plushenko, between the theme and the music from Nijinsky program? Are the program meant to draw a connection between Nijinsky ( program), Plushenko, his origin, Yuzuru himself ? But the theme turned out creation and mystical ( it was Shae Lynn's perception but they must have discussed and reach an agreement on the theme ) It's just kind of illogical to me. I didn't mean to critique the program, but I really need a guide to be able to understand it. 

 

 Yeah. I don't have a problem with his facial expressions and intensity but I don't understand how Plushenko's Nijinsky program/Plushenko tribute and Japanese origin mythology are supposed to come together in this program. However, people have assured me that when they finally do, it will be mind-blowing, so I have faith. 

[vanadiezz]

1 minute ago, Nutmeg said:

 Yeah. I don't have a problem with his facial expressions and intensity but I don't understand how Plushenko's Nijinsky program/Plushenko tribute and Japanese origin mythology are supposed to come together in this program. However, people have assured me that when they finally do, it will be mind-blowing, so I have faith. 

 

It is a Plushenko's tribute coz he is using the same music. That is all. The story-telling behind the program is all Yuzu's.

[Nutmeg]

1 minute ago, vanadiezz said:

 

It is a Plushenko's tribute coz he is using the same music. That is all. The story-telling behind the program is all Yuzu's.

Okay. However, with Otonal, I got the feeling that I understood the story behind the program and how it felt like Johnny Weir tribute at the same time, and it all came together in a beautiful way that I can't really put into words. Maybe this is what I was looking for in Origin as well, and why I was disappointed when I didn't find it. 

[4Nessie]

9 minutes ago, vanadiezz said:

 

It is a Plushenko's tribute coz he is using the same music. That is all. The story-telling behind the program is all Yuzu's.

And what's more, it is probably not even Yuzu's. Shae said she created the theme in her mind and only Yuzu will know what HIS actual story is. So the inspiration is there, but we probably won't know if Yuzu uses it.

Spoiler

And regarding the mythology, I am European, so I don't know much, but I feel that Asian understanding of mythology is vastly different from European or American. The demonic, spiritual world there is much more complicated and I would refrain from calling anything demonic actually evil. 

 

[vanadiezz]

4 minutes ago, Nutmeg said:

Okay. However, with Otonal, I got the feeling that I understood the story behind the program and how it felt like Johnny Weir tribute at the same time, and it all came together in a beautiful way that I can't really put into words. Maybe this is what I was looking for in Origin as well, and why I was disappointed when I didn't find it. 

 

I think Otonal is easier to grasp because its nuances has similar vibe with Chopin while Origin is a totally different case. No worries, once he master it he will be able to project it better.

 

With Yuzu, I always feel that he took longer time to conquer his free program, but when he does the result is so mesmerizing that those programs leave deeper impression. Top three of my favourite program of his are his free.  

[yuzuangel]

2 hours ago, OonsieHui said:

I've felt really uncomfortable during Helsinki, and since, whenever people (commentators, journalists, other skaters) are like "that was the best of Hanyu" or "that was perfection" or "that was flawless", especially regarding his FS. Because, actually, no.

Did anyone actually say it like that though? I've only heard "There were mistakes but even so Yuzu is in a class of his own" etc. etc.

[rockstaryuzu]

37 minutes ago, Terrapin said:

 

 

 

To me Origin means different things that are all connected: It is Yuzu's origins, hence the tribute to Plushenko who himself did a tribute to Nijinsky. It is the origin of the universe in Japanese mythology, hence the idea of Yuzu being a 'demon creator', in the sense that he is able to literally create a universe through his skating. I think it also acknowledges somehow the fact that Yuzu has reached a kind of mythical status thanks to his journey and achievements. All in all, I agree that it can be more difficult to grasp because it may seem more abstract as a concept, but I think you need to see Otonal and Origin as a diptych: Otonal is more emotional while Origin is more abstract, Otonal is softer while Origin is fiercer, Otonal is the androgynous beauty while Origin is the more assertive/ masculine one etc but in the end, both combined, they actually embody what Yuzu is as a whole. 

That's definitely how I see it. And I hope I'm not the only one who is really excited about the idea of Yuzuru as some kind of powerful spirit creating a universe through his skating. I think it opens up an amazing Avenue for him to express the power of his will on the ice.

[4Nessie]

3 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

That's definitely how I see it. And I hope I'm not the only one who is really excited about the idea of Yuzuru as some kind of powerful spirit creating a universe through his skating. I think it opens up an amazing Avenue for him to express the power of his will on the ice.

 

I can totally feel the power, even with those early versions, and not at all as a negative power. I feel his power as exciting, as an electric charge before a thunder. I like it and I know that by the end of the season, I will love it.

[Msyloves]

I think Origin will definitely evolve in the same way Seimei did. After his talk with Nomura Mansai and one change of a movement, it became different and continued to evolve. Finally,  Seimei became something totally Yuzuru's own by the time he competed in Pyeongchang. Hope and Legacy felt the same way to me, always evolving. May it is also both Yuzuru and us, the audience, changing and evolving too as the season progresses. One reason why I really love his skating over anyone else's. 

[KatjaThera]

I think it might be hard to grasp the spiritual aspect of Origin also because many of us westerners tend to equate spirituality with christianity. Like many have said, this is Asian spirituality and it's very different. They have many gods and so-called demons that aren't really demons in the christian sense. That's why to me Yuzu is a sort of God, or King of a Universe, if you prefer, in Origin. He creates something in that program.

 

But while he is strong and fierce, I don't get any negativity from it. He is strong and cold and fierce and distant, but that doesn't make him evil.

 

And if I were to try to see what else this might relate to with Yuzu personally, I'll put it under spoilers because it's speculation

Spoiler

As soon as I mentioned the cold and distant in an earlier episode, I remembered Yuzu in that 2016 interview saying that he is lonely, but that he actually needs to be lonely and to isolate himself in order to perform well. Maybe in a way the program is an abstract and metaphoric representation of Yuzu the skater. He is strong and he creates and yet he's alone and distant, because he has to be. Because that's necessary for the creation. And in the process he probably has to battle inner demons as well, and he has to stay strong and always be ready to fight. He has to be the strongest and stay at the very top and in this time he carefully creates wonderful things for people to enjoy.

 

For that matter, even Otonal has a slight lonely feeling to it. I'm not one of those people who necessarily believe Yuzu should go out more or socialize more or whatever, but I do sometimes wonder how lonely he might actually be. I could be projecting, but I do find myself wondering if these programs aren't at least partly an expression of that, too.

 

That said, it's probably easier for me, because I don't feel the need to understand. I can't say I fully understand H&L either, or even Seimei. I don't necessarily perceive a story or a message watching them, but I still love them to bits. They probably do resonate with something inside of me, though, even if I can't put it in words.

[makebelieveup]

1 hour ago, wpisces said:

 

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I do think his expressions for Origin would be suitable IF the program were to portray a demon or villain. But because it is not as far as I'm concerned, I find his expressions confusing. Besides his expressions, there must be something preventing me from being connected to the program. I can't make out what it is exactly but unlike other programs( from costume, music, to choreo,.. they are all in line with a certain theme) it seems Origin's package (theme, choreography, music, costumes, expressions,... ) lacked of cohesion which made its meaning/ concept vague. For example, what's the connection between a program about his origin and a program tribute to Plushenko, between the theme and the music from Nijinsky program? Are the program meant to draw a connection between Nijinsky ( program), Plushenko, his origin, Yuzuru himself ? But the theme turned out creation and mystical ( it was Shae Lynn's perception but they must have discussed and reach an agreement on the theme ) It's just kind of illogical to me. I didn't mean to critique the program, but I really need a guide to be able to understand it. 

 

No, I agree that this program doesnt showcase one strong theme yet. On top of that, we have difficult elements that Yuzu needed to conquer so all the in betweens are further sacrificed. I think maybe there are just too many things that are thrown in the mix here. I think originally, he wanted to just use the music of the program he was inspired as a young child. He wanted to go back to the way he used to feel about skating and thats what the title all about. But because it is also seen as a tribute, he wanted to incorporate some of Nijinsky concepts in it. Its funny because Nijinsky is a tribute to Nijinsky but Origin is a tribute to tribute to Nijinsky. So we're playing telephone here. On top of that, Shae has her own interpretation about what Origin should be about going by the title meaning. I dont think it will change and I agree that unless they throw out Nijinsky (the ballet dancer movements) entirely, we have somewhat a disconnect. His expressions/image would have been more suitable if he's trying to depict a villain, I agree and sorry if I offended anyone by saying this. It's just how I felt when watching him performed at Helsinki but I think it could have been the demeanor when he was there. Even Kurt had mentioned it. I really didnt see this at ACI where his expressions were more toned down and simply showed power and will as a creator. 

[Katt]

On 11/7/2018 at 8:19 PM, OonsieHui said:

So, I know it's off topic, but I have a thought that may not go over well...

 

I've felt really uncomfortable during Helsinki, and since, whenever people (commentators, journalists, other skaters) are like "that was the best of Hanyu" or "that was perfection" or "that was flawless", especially regarding his FS. Because, actually, no. That performance, while beautiful and amazing for a first competition for Yuzuru, was not his best, was not perfect, he still has stuff to work on, something that he very clearly knows and accepts. I wondered why I felt such a knee jerk negative response to said comments, and I realise it's because it feels like it cheapens his truly great outstanding performances, and makes it feel like people are saying that not because it's true but because he's Yuzuru Hanyu. 

 

Thoughts? 

None of people I know said his Helsinki perfomance were perfect or flawless. Maybe some, and one or two commentator, but its minority. His SP was great, his LP was good, and I think most people agree there's a lot of room to improve. The praise over his LP maybe due to delay broadcast- people already knew he won the comp with big margin and the 4T3A got alot of attention. And commentator might be abit hype because a 2 times OGM still compete. He's Yuzuru Hanyu but he doesn't get praise everytime, if you remember all those comment about him "vulnerable", "inconsistency" during 2016-17. For sure, once he underperform, those comments would be back faster than lightening. In fact, there's already some articles in Japan and Russia about how overscore he was. I'm pretty sure none of us want to hear that either. 

 

As for the Origin, I understand that's the music Yuzuru love and want to skate for a long time, partly tribute to Plushenko but he want to make it his own as well. Shaelyn said its base on Kojiki but what's he think or how he express-its his choice. I remember with H&L, at first Yuzuru said that the theme is about nature. Shaelyn shared she create program base on his skating life and at the end of season, its both. The program is about his skating life and he express that through the motion like the water, the wind. Maybe with Origin, Yuzuru still on the stage to find and discover the right expression/interpretation. Its different from Seimei or POTO because its doesn't have character. I always find its unfair to compare his new program to Seimei or H&L-because most of the time people mention these 2 programs, they only recall the best perfomances. I hope some people would remember how messy H&L at ACI or SC16, how Semei was all over place during summer 2015 and give him time to develop the new program. He will get there, maybe not as fast as some hope it would be but I think Yuzuru won't pick the music if he can't bring something new to it.   

 

 

[BWOZWaltz]

18 hours ago, lajoitko said:

I want to share very personal story. It is kind of sad and if you have lost someone very recently, you probably don´t want to read further. This is also very long, so feel free to skip this.

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I have watched figure skating pretty much all of my life, but when I first saw Yuzu on tv, I became his fan. It was Cup of China 2011. I lived with my mother because her health wasn´t the best and she needed my help. My mother couldn´t understand at all what had happened. I think she thought that I had become crazy. When it was competition weekend she just rolled her eyes because I spent so much time watching "some Japanese boy".

When I bought the tickets for the WC 2017 she began to take things more seriously. We had to plan her care for the time that I was in Helsinki, and I know that she watched the competition on tv. After that her attitude changed. She no longer rolled her eyes when I said it was "a Yuzu-weekend". We started to plan our schedule together so that I could watch the competition. She bagan to ask how was the competition and I started to tell her more about Yuzu and show her some pictures and videos.

In January 2018 my mother got sick very seriously and before I could even understand the situation, she passed away. One of the last things she said to me was: "You will be fine. Think about positive things. Think about Yuzu." Her funeral was the day before Yuzu arrived in Korea. The Olympics and the events after that helped me so much. Smiling and happy Yuzu has the best healing power.

When ISU announced about Helsinki GP, I knew right away that I was going there. The only bad thing was that it was held in the same weekend when we have a tradition to go to church to remember our loved ones and light a candle for those who have passed away during the year. I was very sad that I couldn´t attend this but my aunt promised to go there so I traveled to Helsinki.

I have a bad habbit of second guessing myself, and in Helsinki I was asking myself if I was doing the right thing. I was little bit sad and thinking about my mother a lot. I was sitting in the area where Yuzu does the combination in SP and starts the step-sequence. I had priviledge to see that moment three times during the practices and competition, and every time that part of the program moved me to tears. After Yuzu´s perfect SP I found myself thinking that it was the right place for me to be, and that my mother would be so happy to see my happiness. Maybe I needed Yuzu in my life to be able to survive this period of my life. I am so happy that I did go to Helsinki. It was one of the best experiences in my life.

My friends and relatives know that I have intrest in figure skating but they don´t know how bad it is. I am a very private person and for me being a Yuzu-fan is a very private thing. Now I just had this feeling that I want to share my story with people who maybe understand what I am talking about.

 

 

Spoiler

Thank you for sharing your personal story with us.  Your mum must be very happy for you that you went to Helsinki to see Yuzu. Remembering someone doesn't have to be in a form of special ritual or an occasion. I hope you find peace in your heart like your mum's words "You will be fine". 

 

 

1 hour ago, makebelieveup said:

 

 

 

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Tbh, as a person with a spiritual belief that no one else should play God, I cannot like Origin or Seimei as much as I wanted to. Yeah the programs are some of my faves in term of performance but the themes arent some that I believe in. I do think Origin is about creation and mystical and stuffs. Although I do think that his image resembles more of a demon or villain, a bit too fierce at times. Anyway, you can see that this theme being played out from his beginning and ending movements although we can also see they drew in some moves from Nijinsky, the ballet dancer, for inspiration. I think his expressions in Origin are similar to Seimei but on steroid. Maybe because of his current stature as a double olympic gold medalist as well as the fact that he has matured as a skater that he exudes a new level of aura we havent seen before on ice. I also think its part of the expressions meant for the program. Either way, its there to draw contrast with his short and exhibition programs. We can see that he is versatile through it.

 

As for whether Origin is at its best? Not nearly. Both Yuzu and his fans know this and both Yuzu and his fans have higher standards for him. Thats why I'm not exactly uncomfortable or surprised by the commentaries. I'm happy to hear of good receptions but I also know that this would be used by antis as an attack on him. But what can we really do about them anyway. I also think part of the reasons why he got such comments is because he dominated the men's event with two programs. So its more of a relativity thing. Had someone skated really really well, it would have changed their attitude a bit. Remember Worlds 2017 where he skated a world breaking perf and yes, there were praises but he didnt win by a large margin. So that took away the hype by a bit.

 

For those who cant warm up to Origin yet, its totally understandable. At this point its still imperfect and fresh. Look at what happened to Otonal as soon as he perfected the spins and landed nearly perfectly. I think Origin layouts were sacrificed by the fact that it was shorten to 4 min but Im sure by Worlds, we would get all the things Yuzu had hoped to deliver through this program.

 

 

16 minutes ago, wpisces said:

 

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I do think his expressions for Origin would be suitable IF the program were to portray a demon or villain. But because it is not as far as I'm concerned, I find his expressions confusing. Besides his " hostile" expression, there must be something preventing me from being connected to the program. I can't make out what it is exactly but unlike other programs( from costume, music, to choreo,.. they are all in line with a certain theme) it seems Origin's package (theme, choreography, music, costumes, expressions,... ) lacked of cohesion which made its meaning/ concept vague. For example, what's the connection between a program about his origin and a program tribute to Plushenko, between the theme and the music from Nijinsky program? Are the program meant to draw a connection between Nijinsky ( program), Plushenko, his origin, Yuzuru himself ? But the theme turned out creation and mystical ( it was Shaelyn's perception but they must have discussed and reach an agreement on the theme ) It's just kind of illogical to me. I didn't mean to critique the program, but I really need a guide to be able to understand it. 

 

 

It's interesting to see different views about Origin. For me, I get a vibe of Evil King or Evil God from the ominous atmosphere that he creates through his expression but then Japanese mythical god and evil god is probably a bit different from the existence that monotheism refers as the GOD/Demon. I am not Shintoist but I can relate to the concept - the things that can affect you or moves you are all gods. The Sun is a god and there are gods who protect mountains, ocean, forests to keep the balance/create harmony of this world. 

 

I have this understanding of Hope and Legacy's theme being the nature that relate to 八百万の神 (Yao yorozu no kami). Thousands of gods reside in wind, trees, rivers and all these natural things that surround us. Origin is on the dark side perhaps but even an evil god has to act in a way to keep the balance of the world. I don't think Yuzu is playing GOD but he could be portraying a god that had created his skating world. Not sure if you get what I'm trying to say but his Japanese background should be considered when you think about god/evil. Having said that, I thought Yuzu was particularly scary during fs in Helsinki. I believe that was due to his concentration level being maxed out after kuyashii driven training prior to the competition. After ACI he said 「最短で強くなりたい」(not sure if we have a translated interview after ACI but it means "Want to become the strongest in the shortest time"), so his kuyashii worked a bit too well this time

 

I am glad that Otonal and Origin is paired up this season. It highlights Yuzu's versatility as a skater and a performer. And I couldn't be happier after seeing HYK. It was just heavenly and he was the sweetest cherry blossom fairy whose pure beauty can heal those wounded by the evil king  From autumn through to winter then spring, his skating then continued to "hot" summer in gala finale - that zusaaa and things followed just killed me

 

And I just can't believe we do this all over again in less than 10 days... I'm still trying to catch up with all the pics/videos/blogs and also some sleep...

[Xen]

I didn't know about the Kojiki specifically, but being Chinese, our creation myth has at its center, Pangu. 

East asian creation myths are not peaceful events. There's a lot of warfare, pushing shoving etc. For example, for Pangu (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pangu):

Quote

In the beginning, there was nothing in the universe except a formless chaos. This chaos coalesced into a cosmic egg for about 18,000 years. Within it, the perfectly opposed principles of Yin and Yang became balanced, and Pangu emerged (or woke up) from the egg. Pangu is usually depicted as a primitive, hairy giant who has horns on his head and wears fur. Pangu began creating the world: he separated Yin from Yang with a swing of his giant axe, creating the Earth (murky Yin) and the Sky (clear Yang). To keep them separated, Pangu stood between them and pushed up the Sky. With each day, the sky grew ten feet (3 meters) higher, the Earth ten feet thicker, and Pangu ten feet taller. This task took yet another 18,000 years. In some versions of the story, Pangu is aided in this task by the four most prominent beasts, namely the Turtle, the Qilin, the Phoenix, and the Dragon.

After the 18,000 years had elapsed, Pangu died. His breath became the wind, mist and clouds; his voice, thunder; his left eye, the sun; his right eye, the moon; his head, the mountains and extremes of the world; his blood, rivers; his muscles, fertile land; his facial hair, the stars and Milky Way; his fur, bushes and forests; his bones, valuable minerals; his bone marrow, sacred diamonds; his sweat, rain; and the fleas on his fur carried by the wind became animals.

So when I see the arm movements from Yuzu, I guess I see Pangu separating and weaving the line between earth and the sky. And each movement, including the poses, are just more of this creator separating out and creating the land/rivers/forests etc. It's not so much christian, but more of ancient folklore creation myths. And well, when Yuzu gets into his ending pose, I think of that as when earth is finally created and Pangu is able to rest.  I'm not sure if this helps with the imagery, but most of Chinese creation myths involve a creator who has to essentially sacrifice itself to create the universe and its entities. 

 

As for Japanese myths, I guess the equivalent would be Amaterasu, and maybe Izanagi no Mikoto? But in general, creation myths in east asia are kind of epic struggles of a universe being borne. And I suppose the skating would be to portray, in an allusive way, the struggle that Yuzu had to create what is "his" skating. 

 

As for how I might juxapose this myth against Yuzu's skating (sorry I need to sleep soon, so it's a tad rushed):

Spoiler

-I guess the starting pose is when Pangu wakes up, as ying and yang come together. The initial pounding might just be the heart beat of this new entity waking up and emerging. 

-In the beginning, there was only murky chaos, earth and sky were blended together, as part of chaos. There is no noise, just endless quietness and slight noise. This new entity looks around itself, and realizes that earth and sky must be cut out. So with the giant swing of the axe (quad loop), earth and sky are initially separated out. And this new entity pushes apart the ying (earth) and yang (sky)-corresponding to the hand movements and motion that Yuzu makes afterwards.

-But alas, chaos is chaos and would not stay separated for long, so this entity had to do more. It had to figure  out how to harness the wind, and further use its own strength to push and keep apart the sky and earth. Hence it used its own strength to maintain the separation, but sometimes it was not enough; sometimes the sky would fall and this creation entity would have to heave upwards against the sky to keep it up. And in the meantime, to ensure that earth is well-tended, this entity also had to learn to lay down the rivers, the forests etc etc. 

-The epic creation struggle continues until at the ending pose, when finally earth is laid down, and the sky is separated up. But by this time this creation entity is also all-used up (sorry Yuzu, but your stamina boy). 

 

[Bilge]

This topic get really interesting, i’m enjoying it so much. Thank you all