fireovertheice

It is working well on my Iphone, though....

5 minutes ago, liv said:

I"m g etting an error code too... can't see forums....

Mee too, almost some hours nowe. I can navigate some topics arriving in the sections through the posts or notifications in my profile only. What is happening? And how can I do to fix the problem? I use firefox as browser.

@Xen

Quote

hmm, have you shared any of these with Max or Angelo for their podcasts? They'll probably have a blast with your numbers. And given their visibility, maybe it might impact the ISU? Or maybe I'm too hopeful on the latter part, but I pray it is true. 

No, I haven't, but as I wrote somewhere before I have a little project with some other people of the forum to give more visibility to these data. We will see.

However, I think that Max and Angelo already knows things like that as well as the judges working for ISU at the international level. If I realised better just looking at the feet ot these athlets for some hours in my free time in the last week, I imagine that for people working in the sector (and in majoity ex skaters) there are all aspects very obvious and clear.

That's why also for Yuzuru FS of last season (the beautiful H&L), Ambesi in his commentary of Worlds said that in Helsinki we had seen a program with a complexity in transition and a variety in changes of edges that was never seen before, more associated with the most difficult technical content. He saw all this, shouting - rightful so - that the realisation of that clean program was a huge accomplishment for the discipline, and for the sport in general.

I have already looked at CoR Seimei and counted TR, elements and crossovers and it is also a slightly better than H&L, if possible, and it would be really magnificent and without equal if skated clean. Yuzuru and Shae Lynn working together are genius and they are producing incredible works of art.

Quote

If I had to say, the way I'd rank Nate, Boyang, Shoma and Mikhail as roughly equal in all their PCs scores, all within a 8.5-8.75 band, with a small number of occasional dips into 9.0 depending on how they skate that day. But I would hardly ever considering giving them 9.25 or above. None of them quite merit that yet, though Mikhail frankly comes the closest.

I agree with you, also if  - sad to say because I like him - this year Boyang seems to me not advanced so much compare to the others in PCS also if clearly trying, but I have to look and to count better his programs at CoC, to be honest.

If I had to rank those four for the part of PCS concerning SS and TR looking at their feet, I would put Kolyada in first, followed closely by Nathan, then by Shoma and Boyang. The best knees are those of Kolyada and Uno though.

Looking at their upper body I like the posture and the use of the arms of Nathan the most, but also those of Kolyada, traditional russian style, are very good; Shoma is using arms and head very much to project, and for someone this is working, also if to me it is not appropriate for each program and every piece of music (he has the same use and IN also for his EX...). In this compartement Boyang has still a lot of work to do IMO.

For all the rest of what you said, I am 100% in agreement with you. Pity that it seems that judges have sometimes different ideas. And this without speaking of GOE for TES ...

10 hours ago, MrPudding said:

 

Technical panel at CoC 2017, Ladies - Short & Free Program: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gpchn2017/SEG003OF.HTM

If this is true, I just checked the previous partecipation of the Italian technical controller, Ms. Raffaella Locatelli: at CoC she was also with Konstantin Kostin, that was with her in the technical panel for the men FS at Boston Worlds in 2016 too > Worlds 2016 - Men Free Program: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/wc2016/SEG002OF.HTM ; they were again together in the tech panel at the European Champ. 2017 for men >   http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/ec2017/SEG002OF.HTM

Previously Ms. Locatelli  has been also in the technical panel for men at Worlds 2014. This year she was also Lombardia Trophy 2017, but in the panel for Ladies and Pairs: http://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/event-documents/figure-skating-4/2017-18-6/challenger-series-3/protocols-59/15081-cs-ita-lombardia-trophy-protocol/file

Mr. Kostin (USA) was also in the techical panel for Ladies  Free skating at JO 2017: http://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/event-documents/figure-skating-4/2017-18-6/international-4/protocols-53/15106-japanopen2017-protocol/file

Mr. Ricardo Olaivarreta (Mexico), was also in the tech panel of the ladies at Worlds 2017: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wc2017/SEG003OF.HTM

One of the last assignment of Ms. Beth Crane before Coc this year has been the JGP at Egna, Italy, as technical controller for the ladies: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/jgpita2017/jgpita2017_protocol.pdf?

She resulted also among the Canadian officials (not judging) at this year Skate Canada: https://skatecanada.ca/2017/10/regina-ready-to-welcome-skaters-from-around-the-world-for-2017-skate-canada-international/

To me it seems more probable Locatelli and Kostin, who have already be in tech panel for men, than the others two. We will see (but Ambesi usually knows well what he says...).

I would like to know from you all if you have looked at Kolyada FS at CoR and at CoC, and if following you there was so much difference in SS and in transitions in the two comps. I know that Mikhail PCS at CoR have been inflated, but to me there was not so much difference in those compartments in the two performances, while I read the opinion of others saying otherwise (i.e. that today his transitions were lesser / simpler).

I noted also that today  at CoC the scores for Kolyada FS in SS, IN and TR were the same or similar to those of Nathan Chen FS at CoR. What do you think about it ? And more what do you think if we compare those two sets of scores with those of Shoma at Skate Canada (also taking in account the fact that is difficult to compare scores of different comps an so forth...)?

Nathan Chen FS at CoR

- protocols/jump content: 4 quads, single or in combination (2 of them 4Lz) + two 3A (both with - GOEs) single and in combination + one 2T(pop) +  one 3Lz

- protocols/StSq3

- by my count: skating on one foot 37 secs, number of revolutions on one foot 25, crossovers 44

- protocols/scores: SS= 8.96, TR=8.57, CO=8.89

Mikhail Kolyada FS at CoC

- protocols/jump content: only 2 quads (with the fall on the 4Lz) + one 2S (pop) + two 3A (one popped) single and in combination + two 3Lz combination + one 3Lo

- protocols/StSq4

- by my count: skating on one foot 41 secs, number of revolutions on one foot 28, crossovers 30

- protocols/scores: SS= 8.89, TR=8.57, CO=8.82

Shoma Uno FS at SC

- protocols/jump content: 4 quads, single or in combination (1 of them 4Lo,  1 of them with -GOE such as the 4T, also <) + two 3A single and in combination + one 3S in combination +  one 3Lo (with -GOE)

- protocols/StSq3

- by my count: skating on one foot 40 secs, number of revolutions on one foot 24, crossovers 54

- protocols/scores: SS= 9.29, TR=8.89, CO=9.11

I know that for scoring SS and TR there are a lot of other factors / elements to be considered besides one-foot skating, difficult turns and steps and multi directional skating (see here: http://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU program-component-chart_sandp-and-id_08-16.pdf ), but I do think that in most of these other aspects those three skaters are not so far from each other (see speed and acceleration, flow and glide, continuity of movements etc...).

What do you think about it (without bashing anyone...)?

Thanks in advance for your answers and your opinion

P.S. Also at CoR were PCS of Kolyada were inflated he received 9.07 in SS and 8.75 in TR, 9.00 in CO, so always lesser than Shoma at SC.

4 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

Another thing is that I don't think JSF is pushing Wakaba. At all. Even remotely. It's necessary. It's just how skating works. I also don't think they're doing enough for Mai either. But what can we do but watch our blood pressure go up and up. Seriously, then they wonder why people stop watching skating. Sigh.

I'd like to ask you or to the others why following you JSF is pushing so much for Shoma, when Japan already has a man well capable to podium at the main international events and OGM, and do not push so much for the ladies, one of which, if scored properly, could land easily on those podiums as well.

If I understand - or at least I can accept - a part of subjectivity in scoring PCS, I don't get at all this policy in attributing the GOE (well, I get that it not depends always in following the rules....).

For this part of the score there are bullets and almost clear rules. The rule introducted this year of the step before the solo jump in the SP is very easy to understand and to apply (I think that a judge in international competition would recognize a clear step before a jump).

And these are not the first competitons of the season: so everyone must be already acquainted with that. So, @Yatagarasu and others are 100% right in noting that we have to criticize and stress when we see clear and sure cases of misjudging.

@Katt said:

Quote

His spin GOE and PCS are a bit high, I would give him 88+ for this skate but I think he deserve to be 3rd.

If we speak also of GOE, the judges have been sure too generous on the Salchow: so in total 88+ could be the right score also for me. I do not know if this would put still in third because at the same time Tanaka was a little bit underscored. In this reputation played surely a role.

3 minutes ago, xeyra said:

Also why are people in arms over Javi's PCS? Yuzu got similar ones at COR for also a faulty SP. Granted, Yuzu's TES was actually higher than his PCS then.

I agree also with this in general. Maybe I would have given Javi something less in performance and interpretation today (Yuzu IN at COR was better) but I do  not think much lesser than 45 in total.

Just to know, and to let me understand better: which score do you think could be right for this skate of Javi? Thank you in advance for the eventual replies

12 minutes ago, xeyra said:

Mika's 4Lz was dinged by some judges on the lack of steps, as he should. No matter how amazing it was, it's not obeying SP requirements. It should not be getting +3s.

Yes, this is. It should have been between 0 and 1 GOE (and rightful so, because it was a splendid jump, in it self to be scored between 2 and 3 GOE). Not all the judges are applying the rule yet (at least clearly those who gave the 2s and the 3).

Ehhh..@murieleirum, maybe for Nathan they had a vision...or they counted something as step that in my view do not seem a step at all...but maybe other, sure more expert than me, can say something about it ?

Nice to look at the protocols for these jumps:

- Yuzuru Hanyu, 4Lo (SP, COR) = given with an < and GOE -2.06 (no comment ...)

- Nathah Chen, 4F (SP, COR) = GOE -1.03

- Shoma Uno, 4L (SP, SC) = GOE + 2.29

You can find interesting things about this subject also here: https://twitter.com/SkatingProtocol/status/924257880571891718

P.S. Pay attention in picking other tweets in that account...

@Xen your observation is very pertinent and - sadly - correct. If we take out those 20 or little more secs of jumping and 50 secs of spinning, that are sort of uncuttable because of the score, it is clear that the cut will fall on steps and transitions, a maybe the longer ones (yuzu's hydroblade at COR was around 3.5 secs and the Ina Bauer was around 2.3 secs) or the complexer ones (usually with more than 1 sec on one foot).

About the time spent in a program in transitions (turns and steps), and its meaning in a program, it is interesting this short interview with Lori Nichol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n32I2aQOuQ0

To note > It is a quite "old" video (2009): see the difference in the timing devote to jump in Chan FS at the time (she says around 8 secs jumping; the time of spinning is not so much different: 45 secs) with the numbers we have seen for these four competition of some of the top men. Of course, it is because of the increasing number of quads.

See also what she says about transitions: "(they) are where you shows your blade skills, basically the foundation of skating, how deep your edges are, what kind of lean you have, what kind of (translator says: me...) action you have, and also show your integrity with performance and interpretation, because can you do that complexity in time to the music with great body line.

(....) You get the transition mark based on the complexity that you are doing and how close it is to the element, but overall you should be doing it because there's constant movement in music, it never stops and so we must appear with it with the interpretation of our transition, that's why not just (for) the points".

 It is true that rules from 2009 are a little bit changed, but I thinks that this sort of description still fits with nowadays PCS: should be send this video to the judges before each competition ?

@Sombreuil I love rhythmic gymnastics too :).

As for the mathematicians of your family, try to convince them saying what is the reality: that music, dance, FS and RG are all based on mathematics! Without the possibility to count the lenght in time of the sounds and of the movements, there would be none of such things. Present them the thing as this: FS it is just a very beautiful way to count, freeing your soul and your mind at the same time.  .

And if it is done by beautiful and charismatic young people ...also more.

29 minutes ago, Joey said:

 

Thank you so much for doing these! And it does compliment the time-on-one-foot data quite nicely, doesn't it?

Are you planing to add other men to the list too? Me, selfishly indirectly asking for Boyang

Yes,  at this point I think so: I am waiting for CoC

There is the possibility I'll develop this thing a little bit further with the help of some people of the forum and not, more expert than me in figure skating and other things. We will see. For now it has been interesting enough for me to look - several times !!! - and to count these things. You are forced to note a lot of details.

And again yes, the two aspects are complementary or - at least - go together.

It would be interesting to count also the change of direction of blade and/or edges in the one-foot skating time in passes and transitions, or to distinguish the more difficult ones, but I have not time fot this. I will use the little time I can to check in more than one competition to have a reasonable average.

To change the subject just for a moment and to continue the observations on "numbers" in the long/free program of Yuzuru and the others top men (and without any kind of negativity towards the others...).

Before I have counted the timing of one foot skating in their FS as posted in the general Yuzuru chat:

https://planethanyu.com/topic/3-general-yuzuru-chat/?do=findComment&comment=110593

https://planethanyu.com/topic/3-general-yuzuru-chat/?do=findComment&comment=110604

(but I have already seen that it is a work to do on average in different competition, because there could be some differences: so if you are interested in this, stay tuned...).

Now I have counted also the numbers of their crossovers. Here you are the first result of counting:

Yuzuru FS: 28 crossovers (COR)

Javier FS: 34 crossovers (AC)

Nathan FS: 44 crossovers (COR)

Shoma FS: 54 crossovers (SC)

@meoima said:

Quote

And then let’s not talk about the absolute music like Rachmaninov piano concerto no 2. Or Tchaikovsky Piano concerto no 1... it’s so difficult to create an image from those things, but that’s why it’s opened to all skaters to choose. Personally I think skating to a program without story is the hardest (...)

I cannot agree more. But I do not know if is only the age to play a part here. It's a fact of sensibility to the music, the type of reactivity you have to the music in sense of what it can make emote and resonate in you with the its pure sound, and to make transfer these feelings to the movements of your body, here enhanced by the use fo the blades on the ice.

As a ballerina myself in the past, I can say that you have or you don't have it. And I have to say that very few skaters I have seen, also among the better ones, have it.

That's way is important to me that Yuzuru for the FS in his senior career wanted always to choose the music for his FS. And also that he took Chopin so long, because he said that after the first season he began to feel and to interpret better the music. These pieces of music and these programs can make click things in him that give him the capability to give us always very empatethic and charismatic performances, also when he make some errors.

That's also why at the present I am not touched by any means by the perfomances of Uno (SP) or Chen (FS), also when they don't have had major errors. You can feel it that they are skating to the music and the programmes that others chose for them, they haven't made them 'theirs' yet.

Maybe for Yuzuru the earthquake was a catalyst to wider his sensibility in respect to the music, but the natural predisposition has to be already there. This for me is 'musicality' - and not just the capacity to follow the rythm of the music with the movements of your body, such as some commentators seems to suggest and/or intend.

Just to complete the reasoning of my latest post (after that I'll quit because work is calling...and also I do not know if this is the right thread), I counted also the timing of different parts of Nathan Chen's FS at COR.

In.Step. Seq.: 21 sec.

1st jump (4Lz+3T: 4.60 sec.) + 20 sec. ca > 2nd jump (4Flip: 4.20 sec.) + 19 sec. >  3rd jump (4S: 4.10 sec.)

1st Comb. Spin (CCSp4): 15.05 sec.

Step Seq (StSq3).: 54 sec. + transit. 11 sec.

4th jump (4T+2T+2Lo: 4.32 sec.) + 6.80 sec. > 5th jump (pop 2T: 2.59 sec.) + 19 sec. > 6th jump (3A: 2.72 sec.) + 11.00 sec. > 7th jump (3Axel+ 2T<: 6.30 sec.) + 7 sec. > 8th jump (3Lz: 3.09 sec.)

Choreo Sequence (ChSq1): 20.50 sec.

2nd Comb. Spin (FCCoSp4) : 17.27 sec.

3rd Comb. Spin (CCOSp1V): 20.98 sec.

So, in total (almost 4.24 min. program):

One foot skating in step and choreo sequences + various transition elements): almost 38.50/39 sec.

Jumping time: almost 31,92 sec.

Spinning time: almost 53,30 sec.

Spinning time is similar to that of Yuzuru: the difference is in the time of the jumps (slower in settings, slower in rotation) and in the transitions, for more time two footed if not for very brief moments, mostly of 1-2.5 seconds each (with the exception of the step sequence, that instead is mostly on one foot).

The time between each jump is longer too.

@Joey asked

Quote

For these guys you didn't include the jumping time, like you did for Zu, right?

Yep, you understood well: I counted for them in the same way I did for Yuzu. Just I was to busy/ lazy to count also for them the jumping time and the spinning time. Maybe i could do one of the next days.

Sure, for some of them it is to count a major time to setting for the jumps; but in some cases major time is used two-feet skating, also if head, torso and arms are moving often and wery well, and also a lesser velocity in the skating in general is clear.

Counting these sort of things I realised better how Yuzu has an incredible speed in doing almost everything. And also how this program is still well balanced, all the jumps now included aside.

I have roughly counted also the time of the one foot skating in the step and choreo sequences + various transition elements of some other skaters in the FS showed in the competions of this season held until now.

Here you are:

Javier Fernandez, FS: Man of la Mancha (Don Qixote) – AC 2017 >
One foot skating in step and choreo sequences + various transition elements: almost 53/53.50 sec.

Nathan Chen FS:  Mao’s last dancer/Rite of Spring – COR 2017 >
One foot skating in step and choreo sequences + various transition elements: almost 38.50/39 sec.

Shoma Uno FS: Turandot – SC 2017 >
One foot skating in step and choreo sequences + various transition elements: almost 36.30/37 sec.

To note: Javier has more one foot skating in the transition elements troughout all the program, plus step seq. and choreo seq., while Nathan and Shoma have one foot skating more concentrated in the sequences. Nathan has little bit more complex/more time one foot skated sequences than Shoma .

Edit: I calculated again the timing for Nathan for each part of the program (see my next post) and his one foot time skating in total is around 38.50/39 sec. Then I calculated again the timing for Shoma and it's something more also for him (his movements one foot are so tiny and quick that I had to observe a lot of time and also in slomo) : so I corrected my previous version of this post.

I will see with also the timing in different competions, just out of curiosity.

So, on slightly different topics: today, reading some of your post about the time between Yuzuru jumps in SEIMEI, plus all the question of one foot skating, I made some calculations of the timing of this program in the last COR.

This is the result:

In.Step. Seq.: 20.5 sec.

1st jump (4Lutz: 2.80 sec.) + 22 sec. ca > 2nd jump (3 Loop: 2.10) + 8.30 sec. >  3rd jump (3Flip: 2.50 sec.)

1st Comb. Spin (FCCOSp4): 23 sec.

Step Seq (StSq3).: 50 sec. + transit. 16 sec.

4th jump (4 salchow: 2.40 sec.) + 17.50 sec. > 5th jump (pop 2T: 1.50 sec.) + 16 sec. > 6th jump (combination 4T+3T: 4 sec.) + 3.50 sec. > 7th jump (3Axel+ 2T: 2.90 sec.) + 5.50 > 8th jump (3Axel: 2.40 sec.)

2nd Comb. Spin (FCSSp4): 13.80 sec.

Choreo Sequence (ChSq1): 33.40 sec.

3rd Comb. Spin (CCOSp4): 17.50 sec.

More in general:

One foot skating in step and choreo sequences + various transition elements): almost 58.40/59.00 sec.

Jump time (obviously, beginning and landing on one foot): almost 20.60/21.00 sec.

Spinning time on one foot: 54.30 sec.

Total: almost 2.22/23 minutes on one foot, i.e. half of the time of the program (= 4.44 min. based on the rough calculation above)

To note: the timing in the jumps and between some of them, especially the last axels

Edit: P.S. Some difficoult transitions or coreographic movements on two feet, such as the ina bauer or the spread eagles and so forth, are not included in the last calculations, but one can not forget them thinking about the complexity and the difficulty of this program.

I have looked only today at the performaces of Shoma, Patrick and Jason and to me few things are very clear:

- That of Shoma in FS to me was to count as a fall

- That what Tracy said - and also some others have already observed - about the good movements of Shoma's torso and arms in contrast to a simpler footwork, rich in crossover and two-footed skating is true, and more blatant in the FS, of course

- I do not think that Shoma would have those PCS, especially in comparison to those of Patrick and Jason, at least for Skating Skills, Transitons, Composition. I would say that Jason is way better of Shoma and, for this competition, of Patrick too, in Interpretation of the music.

- And the latter point maybe is also for me the reason why the skating of Shoma, also when well done, doesn't touch me, and more with this year programmes.

I do think that Shoma doesn't feel particularly those pieces of music. Someone maybe gave him a generic explanation of the sense that they must have and of the coreographic movements he has to do, but I do not have the impression of any kind of understanding, or participation, in skating them.

I do not know if this come of my knowledge and experience of them as Italian or what else, but really I do not 'buy' - and I do not like - his intepretation of Vivaldi as well as Puccini music. More: if you look at the upper part of his body and face, at some points the intepretation of the two programs/pieces of music look almost the same...of Vivaldi's "Inverno" and Puccini's "Turandot"...?

So sorry, because I liked very much Shoma and his programmes in back 2015, especially his SP. I hope he will be better in this compartment in next competitions and that this kind of interpretation will not be rewarded in the OGM.

Because if not, I have to say I will enjoy way better the kind of performance that Jason could give than his: sad for FS, that conquered me as a discipline in which athleticism, techinque and artistry have to be all present.

P.S. I agree about the beauty of Shoma costumes, though: both stunning.

3 hours ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

I can only tell you what I know which isn't much. 
When an element is performed with particular quality, then the judges will add bonus points to it, and that adds to the TES score. 

I suppose the idea is that with adding the bonus to the elements (jumps excluded) they are being stimulated to work on perfecting them but I am not sure it does the skaters any good. GOEs exist already and this isn't a feature that exists in intl judging. As to why Polina didn't get it, you know as much as I do because I did not see her lag in quality compared to those who did get it.

 

Here you go, without the candies:

1 Konstantinova 72.22 = 39.10 + 33.12
2 Tsurskaya 71.94 = 38.50 +33.44
3 Pogorilaya 68.80 = 34.72 + 34.08
4 Sahanovich 65.83 = 34.95 + 30.88
5 Istomina 63.61 = 33.41 + 29.20

 

as you can see, suddenly Konstantinova isn't that far ahead of Polina, and Pogo is a bit further, not to mention how Sahanovich's score took a dive (four whole points!). On principle, I dislike systems like these where fudging is more likely to happen (Konstantinova was scored then way later, poof, have another point).

Thank you !

I have looked at the performance of the first three ladies and frankly I do not understand the candies given to Konstantinova e Pogorilaya in confront to Tsurskaya. Anyway, I am happy that Polina skated well and that she seemed healthy and confident. Good luck to her and to all other ladies for the FS.

Dear @Yatagarasu, thank you for all the infos. Can you explain me briefly, or indicate where I can find an explanation, about this bonus that Polina didn't have?

Thanks in advance

Sorry, but I still don't like the FS of Javier this season: as European I find it the most part of it a little boring and stereotypical. And the final pose seems to me a little bit out of character (it's almost the same of the Frank Sinatra's one).

In this sense I find the Turandot of Shoma a little better, also if I do not understand well the connection of the program with Turandot in the first part: it seems just a dramatic skate that could adapt to whatever other music/ stories of the genre. I agree that in this competition hands, and head also, sometimes were a little bit too much.

The program of Nathan has a lot of potential , but he seemed still very far of a true intepretation of it in this competition. And also still very slow and stiff in certain parts of it.

It was interesting to see all these programs close one to another also if for a competition like this, though. That said, at the moment I haven't seen an FS that I could like more than SEIMEI among the men. Let's look at those in Finlandia Trophy....

3 hours ago, wombat-poodle said:

Actually, I don't think Max has been the only one to talk about raising the PCS coefficient in order to balance out TES and PCS. This blog (https://fuckyeahdearlybeloved.tumblr.com/post/165305764611/i-think-the-isu-wants-to-kill-the-figure-skating) mentions it too, and crunches some numbers to show that this is actually a viable solution.

Yes, I think that the blog you mentioned is written by one of the persons quoted - correctly - by Max in the same podcast at this point:

"Some who are following us and saying hi, Carolina, Ilaria, Francesco etc. etc. have tried the system through simulations, applying the new criteria that some ISU officials have talked about recently, to the World Championships. The rank would have stayed exactly the same. And the best technical scores would have stayed above 110. Translated: the right intervention to do ISN'T that".

It would be nice if ISU could know these simulations and these interesting reflections, that sadly I have not seen elsewhere...