fireovertheice

Looking at protocols: why Mai receives always a low-ish score for TR? I haven't checked in detail TR in her SP, but this score is the only 7s (7.82) in her PCS, that otherwise are 8.20 av. (here Osmond 8.60 av. , with TR 8.39).

On 16/11/2017 at 1:06 PM, anyanee said:

Can I ask you guys something? It's nearly end of my semester and I will have about 1 month free time. If I want to learn fs rule in PCS area(last time I study in tech area), what are good source or good competition I should learn? (I ask this cause pcs nowaday is...) thank you very much^^ 

As far as I know there isn't an unique good source for that, but maybe you could have more useful insights by other posters.

Here some useful links (pay attention for each document at the date of release/update, because for some things documents after 2004 are still useful/ followed, while for others not):

2016: http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pair-skating-ice-dance/figure-skating-rules/regulations-rules-fs/file

2016: http://www.skatinginbc.com/sites/default/files/technical-updates/new_program_components_definitions_and_criteria_.pdf

2016: http://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU program-component-chart_sandp-and-id_08-16.pdf

before 2016/2017: http://www.skatinginbc.com/sites/default/files/technical-updates/transition_summary.pdf

2004: http://www.usfsa.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf

In this part of the site of the USFSA you can find ISU updates, among which there could be also some news about components as there were recently for GOEs: http://www.usfsa.org/story?id=84109

here some videos about about skating skills (videos uploaded in 2012):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu1TFFHNZ7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzcS_HlgLKQ&t

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHKTKu4j6U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvSqpY2b_I8&t

In the same channel if you look under all the videos uploaded there, there are other about SS, TR (but still with intricacy), and other components.

Starting from these links and searching through the web and the FS forums and then asking to more expert fans or technicians in this platform too, I think you can have a proper idea of the current system.

14 minutes ago, meoima said:

I have to say, watching live, Carolina does have amazing body carriage. She has really good phrasing in each of her body movement. Should I give her higher PCS than other ladies if she's clean? Yes. But I am not sure how she gets huge PCS when she makes mistakes. 

I agree absolutely on body carriage which is reflected in PE and in IN. Do you think this have an influence on TR for her?

Then: at NHK she wasn't clean at all, but she had the highest PCS scores among the ladies (75.71, 9.40/9.50 av.).

So, just for "fun" I checked how many crossovers - vs. difficult transitions have some of the top ladies in their FS this sesason and compared to their scores.

Here you are the data for your considerations.

To note that also for me the problem in the scores of Carolina are not so much in SS, where she is very good (good mix of some crossovers and still a nice quantity/quality of one-foot skating), but in TR (but she has less crossovers than I thought) and also sometimes in GOE of jumps.

See also the difference, with a slight worse performance, in her score between CoR and NHK.

To me, in comparison the scores of Zagitova and Higuchi at CoC were not so bad (at that competion the scores of SS and more of TR of Mihara were the problem...).

What do you think about it?

I don't want to give too much importance to what JW said about crossovers: to me his statement was just instrumental to discuss with you and others and to understand better some of the aspects I am observing in the last times.

More: this is a subject, in a broader discussion about PCS, of debate not only for men but also for ladies and the other disciplines, also because is not working well.

It is because this doesn't work properly that all the top men have similar PCS scores, so that to be sure to win they are pushing so hard in TES, with all what is happening of good, but also of bad. Yesterday Ambesi and Dolfini in their podcast were discussing if this was also one of the causes for Yuzu to bring the 4Lz this year, also if half FS world is saying that he could win also without.

1 minute ago, xeyra said:

 

Well, not all high quality crossovers are made equal and not all body movement during them can have the same quality and sense of purpose to the judges. And, well, reputation does play a role and Wakaba has less of one than Carolina. Alina's scores compared to Wakaba, though, are less easy to justify on reputation... so I assume TR and TES weight a lot there.

So, you can see is a complex system that give the possibilty to the judges to give more weight to the aspects the impress them more or that the like/evaluate more (the sense of purpose to me is one of the most subjective thing...): in one case is reputation, in an other TES, in another in upper body movements despite what the feet are doing...and so forth.

Really, I do not know what is your experience in competition also in life, but this seems to me the best way to meddle with those scores beyond what you can already do with IN, CO and PE, and in the current situation there is no need of that.

26 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

From what gkelly explains, it seems that quantitive measures of steps and crossovers and multidirectional skating don't have much bearing on those scores, since judges don't have time to count and have to estimate, mostly based on the criteria they find more important. So, as gkelly said, if one does a lot of high quality crossovers (high number as they may be), with good body movement, and link those to certain moves before jumps and keep all elements linked, in a good flow, throughout the program, then that could explain, for example, the kind of SS and TR scores someone like Shoma receives despite not having as much one foot skating as others. 

Yes it seems so, sadly for me, also if for example in another thread about PCS/reputation you can find adfirmation such as this one: "What I have found is that TR is usually half a point lower than SS. I always figured that this was because it is easier for judges actually to count the transitions and evaluate their variety at least, if not quality -- so they are more confident in giving a lower score".

So ? They count transitions and evaluate the variety or not...? In fact the observation that TR could be at least lower of SS is true, if you check.

Or, if you look at the programs of the ladies, like for example those of Carolina Kostner and Wakaba Higuchi, that have both a quite number of crossovers "a lot of high quality crossovers (high number as they may be), with good body movement, and link those to certain moves before jumps and keep all elements linked, in a good flow, throughout the program", how can you explain the difference in SS and TR between them?

At COR, i.e. with the same panel  for SP Wakaba received 8.32 for SS and 8.14 for TR, while Carolina got 8.96 for SS and TR; for the FS Wakaba 8.56 in SS and 8.36 in TR, while Caro 8.93 in both...

And anyway they didn't received a mark above 9 for these components, that was awarded only to Medvedeva, who actually has a lot of difficult transitions.

If you compare this to what is happening to Uno, you can understand that a program like his in this season can not be in the 9s, at least for TR (and maybe also for SS), IMO.

5 minutes ago, xeyra said:

@fireovertheice, I was reading that GS thread and found your question and realized you've been confusing Chen with Chan. Jackie Wong said Patrick Chan had high quality crossovers. He doesn't mention whether Nathan has them or not, his example was Patrick Chan. 

Ah ok, thank you for the correction. Better, for sure as example ...anyway doesn't change nothing in the general subject and discussion generated after. In fact in general Patrick is well known for his high level SS, not always the same about TR also if he in these component he is at another level of some of the young quadsters .

Well @PapiandPooh421 if you read everything she wrote about the subject, it is really discomforting, at least to me. It seems that there is almost not way to fall under subjectivity (or bias) of judges for any of the components.

It's no wonder that Italians gave a big effort in the construction of this system of scoring (I am Italian...).It seems to me like the most part of competition in our country (even for professorship at Uni): you have a three part examination, of which only one can be count or referred to countable or objective criteria, while the other two are more or less leave to subjectivity. This is made on purpose to give room to the judges to do what they want, also if within certain limits.

In FS now is quite like that: you can count how many, the type and of some extent some the levels of elements, but there are GOE and PCS that can be given as someone please. And if this someone score too much in different way from the other judges - also in a good sense - they recall him/her to be more adherent to the corridor of the scores of the others ... .

22 minutes ago, PapiandPooh421 said:

Oh..Don't know there's this so called continuity of movements. Pardon me if I'll ask this but, does the judging in that requirement can be literally based on what it's called, as in continuous and smooth flow on the ice?

I write you down here the answer that @gkelly gave me on GS forums (one of the few persons there and not here, that I find a reliable and interesting source):

Quote

"And the "continuity of movements" criterion that was added to the Transitions guidelines last year (in place of "intricacy") means that even if the skater is doing something really simple such as crossovers, if they flow continuously from one element to another that's worth more than starting and stopping and lurching and squaring off and telegraphing.
So it is possible to deserve high transitions scores even with lots of crossovers, but not if the only thing between the elements is crossovers (because then there would be no variety or difficulty)".

I asked also about the statement of Wong and she (I think is a she) said:

Quote

"My understanding is that crossovers, especially their quality, are considered in the Skating Skills component, not under Transitions.
I referred to all the SS criteria that relate to crossovers in answer to your question about how to evaluate the quality. I left out the mentions of steps and turns and one-foot skating because they don't apply to crossovers".

My oher question: "And just moving the head during crossovers is really to be counted as turns or in general difficult steps on one foot?"

Quote

Her answer: "NO. It counts as body movements. Transitions include things like steps and turns, unlisted jumps, "field moves" (spirals, spread eagles, etc.), and body movements. It's possible to do body movements during crossovers, so a program with many crossovers could be gaining some credit for Transitions during those crossovers."

If you wanna read the details of the entire conversation between us you can find it in the "Structure of Zagitova's Free Skate" thread on GS.

30 minutes ago, katonice said:

I feel like he's making everyone go around in circles

- too many crossovers but good quality - credit in TR score

- but too many crossovers reduce number of other difficult transitions (i.e., real transitions lol) - debit in TR score

- therefore reduce crossovers to increase number of other difficult elements - credit in TR score

- but then we can't give credit to quality crossovers - debit in TR score

 

Wth now he's giving us a headache thinking about those crossovers. 

We already have scores for SS for evaluating overall skating quality. It should already be covered there.

No need to highlight crossovers specifically. So it's making me wonder a little bit why he did.

This is the point: crossovers are steps used in between/ connecting elements so literally they are transitions indeed.

However, I do think that speaking - for example - of the ten top men is difficult to find actual bad quality crossovers, also if some of them are slightly better than others, as @Xen also said, if I remeber well.

And maybe Chen is just not the best.

Also follow me that should be count more in the general SS than in TR, more if we think that other than quality (cleanennes and clarity), the criteria for the scores of TR comprehend also variety (and if crossovers are the transitions in majority were is that?) and  difficulty (....).

It is true that I realised only now that from this year they changed the other requirement for TR, i.e. intricacy with a more general  - and bland to me - "continuity of movements".

Last, and I have already spoken about this, IMO if in a program crossovers are too many in comparison to other transitions, that should be reflected in some negative way not only in TR scores, but also in SS scores (because at least  in contradiction with > Multi directional skating (Includes all direction of skating: forward and backward, clockwise and counterclockwise including rotation in both directions) and Mastery of one foot skating (No over use of skating on two feet), if not with Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns (The skater should demonstrate clean and controlled curves, deep edges, and steps: easy to do if they are mainly crossovers...).

I leave you also this, if someone would like to comment further about PCS in general : http://www.rockerskating.com/news/2017/11/12/opining-on-2017-nhk-trophy-all-components-are-not-created-equal

Maybe you have already seen this: https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/930106084257337349

Please read also the comments and observations of @Lys, @Joey and Chibura and others (I do not know if she/he ever signed on this forum) and the answers of Jackie Wong to them.

Personally I would like to ask him (but I am not on twitter) or to who can/want answer how to recognise this "high quality" crossovers (the charachteristics) and what is the differences in the crossovers of Chen (quoted as example of high quality crossovers) and of the other top 10 men: please, can someone explain to me...?

I posted this also in the thread devoted to fan-made videos, but I post also here to lift up our moods, together with the last bits of infos leaked: I think that for now it is important to send him good vibes hoping in a speed and full recovery for the time of Nationals, as it seems it was stated today:

Whishing him pass as quick as possible through this bad experience and to come back stronger:

9 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

I think Max really likes the likes and retweets he gets, to be honest. Not that he doesn't like Yuzu, but, you know.... hits.

Maybe you are right, but listening to him in Italian (also in these long and deep podcasts) he seems sincerely in awe with Yuzuru. From what I can see Ambesi is a little nerdish in his knowledge about the sports he follows as journalist (he praticed also most of them, he once said, also if I do not know at which level) and he loves the excellence and the perfectionism, the FS-nerdish side of Yuzu and, ultimately, his absolute value are ideal to him.

P.S. In his podcast with Dolfini, happening now, they are repeating the technical panel of CoC ladies will be the same of OGM men...

3 hours ago, xeyra said:

@fireovertheice

I don't want to abuse your goodwill in doing all of this, but would it be feasible to analyse the FS of someone who doesn't do quads (or attempts only 1) for a comparative view? I'd suggest Jason Brown, for example. I think that might be interesting. No worries if that's more than what you feel like doing right now. I know this is not easy work! 

Dear @xeyra

I have done the counts for Jason Brown as you suggested - also because till saturday I will not have time for new analysis like this. I have updated the table again with the data: https://planethanyu.com/topic/44-general-skating-chat/?do=findComment&comment=115065

If you look at that, you can draw your conclusions and share them with us? And which is the opinion of the others?

Looking at protocols, it is clear to me that the judges do not give easily scores above 9 in men's field to who hasn't / don't land quads, also if one has very good skating skills and some difficult transitions, as Jason does (also with holds longer than many others).

And again, if I look at the program of Yuzuru, at his numbers on the table, at his jumps layout and at his scores in SS, TR and CO (for now in the 9.50s, 9.70s at Worlds 2017), plus at his speed and ice coverage in comparison to Jason, I would say that the maximum range of 9/9.10s, so similar to the scores given at SC, is right for Brown. The same if you compare him / his scores for these components to Patrick's (SS 9.25, TR 9.18 at last SC). What I don't get is 9.29 in SS and 9.11 in CO for Shoma, but I have already explained it.

If you look at the protocols until now, it's also evident, on the contrary, that landing one or more quads don't give you necessarily scores above the 9s in SS, TR and CO: see Alexander Samarin FS at SC (2 quads, from 7.71 to 8.04 > PCS 78.36), Max Aaron FS in CoC (3 quads, from 7.71 to 8.21 > PCS 79.89), Vincent Zhou at CoC (5 quads, from 7.29 to 7.64 > PCS 75.08) and more Boyang Jin (4 quads, from  7.54 to 8.21 > PCS 78.78).

At a first look this could seem right, as the PCS scores should be not so tied with TES, if it was not depending by the reputation and whatever else (if Shoma in some compartments seems to me a little bit overscored, Max and Boyang remain a little bit underscored..).

@Xen I am sure I read a question you posed to me about the time of Yuzuru's one foot skating in Trans. I and Trans. II in comparison to the others that now is disappeared by your post: it is so ? Just to know because if not, this means that I have to take a pause from FS and the Planet !

Anyway, on the basis of this your supposed question and of the suggestion of @xeyra I have updated the table posted before: https://planethanyu.com/topic/44-general-skating-chat/?do=findComment&comment=115065

Let me know if in this way is better.

So you can realise in an easier way the Yuzuru is skating on one foot for major time lenght in each segment, with the exception of the transition between jumps in the second part, where he is in the average (only Kolyada has a little bit more). This is understandable because this season he is planning to put there the 2 quads + 2 combos and the 2nd axel.

@xeyra you are right in general about the knees and the edges of Shoma vs. those of Nathan, but to me the data I collected should be affect not only the voice "mastery of one foot skating", but also that of surenness of steps and turns (to me its is much easier and sure if you do them on two feet) and if you consider well also the balance, and then knee action, because is a good knee action that give the possibility to skaters to have better flow in turns and steps on one foot.

I do think that Shoma does so much crossovers maybe because of his shorter legs, but the number is too high considering this factor too (almost double than Yuzu). So if you score Yuzuru SS in the 9.50's, for that skate 9.29 was too high and would be in the range of 8.75-9,00, IMO. The score for TR was a little better in comparison, but still a litte bit high.

I say these things because in the next months competitions also a couple of points will make the difference between the winner and the second (so it was also in the last Worlds!), so to me it is important to understand well this scores - and why they are given so now.

You say

Quote

I feel like if judges like you or you skate cleanish or better than someone else with better SS, it doesn't really matter and some will over reward you.

And this is the problem, discussed also by Ambesi for example. If your TES are in a certain amount/range, PCS follows, without making any distinction among the five parts that form it. On the contrary: they try to mantain the various components in the same range and also the judges in the same "corridor", as we have seen at SC for the ladies (difference in some scores between Sp and Fs).

While judges can not have time to evaluate in detail during the competition, I am sure that they know well the content of the programs in term of jumps , elements and transition at a certain level and of the top competitors, and sure they will do for the Olympics.

Certainly they do not read the analysis of the fans, but I hope that if sport journalists, fans and also some technicians let them know that also this aspects are monitored well, the maybe would have more attention in what they are doing. 

Said that, I am happy that Yuzuru uppered his technic content: he knows very well his opponents and the world of FS!.

6 hours ago, Xen said:

question does anyone plan to expand this to include other skaters such as Cha Junhwa, Deniss V., Vincent Zhou? Since they are up and coming skaters, their stats might be interesting too.

Yes, you are right, but frankly for the time I have now and for my interests, I am doing only the top men, to understand better - or in some cases to dicuss - some part of the PCS scores that have the possibilty to have a mark more relatable to something countable/objective and not so subjective, such as IN and PE.

I do think now, for example, that we can say without any bias that the scores for SS (9.29) and TR (8.89) at SC Canada for Shoma's FS have been way to high. They would have been in the range of those of Nathan at CoR (SS: 8.96, TR: 8.57). Seen the program as a whole, I think that also that 9.11 for Co (8.89 for Nathan) was too high, but I know that is subject is more debatable.  And I know that is related to the values and performaces of the skaters in that competion too, but really...

5 hours ago, xeyra said:

@fireovertheice

Yuzu's time in 1ft skating in his Step Sequence seems to be lower than others in that table. Is this because his Step Sequence is also shorter in length? 

Edit: Actually, might I suggest adding to the table the time length of those step and choreo sequences for easier comparative reading?

Nop: if you make the count of the percentage on the total.

Yuzu skates on one foot in total 56 secs., in his StSq the steps, turns and spiral on one foot amount to the 41.96% on the total 56 secs. i.e. in the  StSq he skates on one foot for 23,49 secs.

For Kolyada and Shoma the time of one foot skating in the StSq is easier to count: 50% on 40 secs. total, i.e. 20 secs on one foot during their StSq.

For Nathan, if one make the same count, one foot skating in StSq amount to 19,99 secs, while Boyang's time is around 14 secs (but I think that his FS at CoC had various problems as he said and we will see in the next comp).

So the average is 20 secs. for almost all the others, and Yuzuru is skating on one foot 3.50 secs more than them (2,5%+).

In general, also the lenght of the StSq is not so much different among these skaters, with the exception of Yuzu, as usal :D:

Yuzuru 48 secs. ca.

Kolyada 40 secs ca.

Nathan 41 secs. ca.

Shoma 41 secs. ca.

Boyang 41 secs ca.

This is because Yuzuru takes lesser time to prepare the jumps and sometimes he is also faster in rotation, so he "spares" seconds that he uses for connecting better the elements and also give us more beautiful and difficult coreographic movements. It is amazing how he can take speed with few stokes or how he can sometimes jump quads/3A with so no much speed: this is his genius, as once Kurt said.

Probably his values, in transitions and one foot skating are more closer to those of Fernandez and Chan (that I haven't calculated in detail yet), but we have to remember that they have an easier layout in term of jump. So what Yuzuru is planning to do this year with his FS is really amazing and extraordinary. Let's cross our fingers for the next comps!

To conclude: your observation is right @xeyra and I will take you suggestion and I will include those data in the spreadsheet for better clarity.

42 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

 

Will you be doing this kind of analysis through the season? Is it okay to add to my men's comparison spreadsheet?

Your spreadsheets are awesome ! (I didn't see all of them before, but only that about Yuzuru, that is so huge, and so well done ).

I will do this kind of analysis only for the FS of the top men (1 comp) and then the six qualifyers for the GPF (av. on 2 comps). It depends by the rythm of my work, that usually give me more free time just in this period of the year.

So, I do not know if they are enough for your spreadsheet about GPF, where I have seen you are tracking all the skaters and taking in consideration SP & FS, rightly so.

However, if you think that those data could be useful and/or interesting to add there, there's no problem for me.

I had already set a spreadsheet with also other data and also tried some graphics: so, if you are interested in, we can also speak about it in a more detailed way via pm.

As it has been said by others, I do not think that there is a problem of backloading or of an unbalanced program as the structure and the coreography have an unity and an original idea at their basis to interpret the music cuts of the music chosen (see the ISU defintion for this part of the scores for Composition) and as long as the skater is able to perform it well all through its lenght. 

It is the same problem of the number and intricacy of transitions, or the number of quads. In my opinion it depends not so much by their number or distribution, but in how well they are or could be performed and in how well the fit all together and with the music. And here the ability of the coreographer and of the skaters are of much relevance.

Just these days while counting the transitions and crossovers I looked also at their distribution in the programs of men and this led me to observe better also their structure.

I will post here in a first table the first results of these counts and observations on the men's FS at the competions of GP of this season until now (I will do something better in a spreadsheet with the average of the two competitions before the GPF). In the % time of one foot skating on the total time of one foot skating (values in the first row) I didn't report the few seconds at the beginning of the programs, because they are a couple to four seconds max  for all skaters.

With "Trans. I" meant the transitions between jumps in the first part of the program, and so with "Trans. II" those of the second part.

As you can see in some elements and in some part of the program  the difference of Yuzuru and the others is evident. He skates more (a lot more...) than the others on one foot, and also changing direction on one foot more than the others. Nevertheless, he is one of the fastest skaters and with one of the most complex and difficult programs if terms of jumps layout.

What is amazing is also the well balanced distribution of one foot steps and transitions throughout the program of Yuzu. The value of the first set is equal of the last one (a sort di circular structure), with a strong part in the StSq that anyway leave energy not only to jump in the second part, but also to give a strong and rich performance in the Coreographic Sequence.

This led me to look better the Choreo Sequences of the others: I invite you to so the same, if you do not have done it.

I have to say that the ChoreoSequences of Nathan and of Shoma are substantially a Spread Eagle (hold 2 secs) in the first case and a Cantilever (hold 2 secs) in the second plus one step or turn and crossovers. Something better Kolyada, while Jin is the only one to try to do more steps and turns in a real sequence.

In the ChSq Yuzuru not only does steps and turns on one foot and the Hydroblade on one foot (hold 2 secs), but also the Ina Bauer (hold 2 secs).

I know that part of these elements are rewarded also in TES and with GOE.  But if we speak of balance and of unity of the programs, we have to look not just to the distribution of the jumps, but also of all the others elements (see for example the spins: mostly at the end of the program for Kolyada and Chen) and transitions, or the lenght, the pattern and the complexity of the choreographic sequence.

You can see here how the coreographers and the skaters have build those programs to follow their idea of the program, but also to highlight the strenghts and to to "hide" the weaknesses of the skaters, as it is right to be.

It would be interesting if someone could try to count and to analyze the programs of the top ladies (I really can't :)).

Sorry for the long post .

Edit. 1: on the basis of some of your observations and questions, I added the total/absolute time of one foot skating for the different parts of the program (Trans. I, Trans. II, StSq and ChSq) under the percentage on the total amount. I hope it is clearer in this way. If not, let me know.

* Jason Brown have a different distribution of spins, that break transitions and jumps/elements in 3 parts: I reunited the 2nd and the 3rd part in Trans. II to make the comparison with the others.

Edit. 2: I added Javier after IdF

Now everything seems working fine to me: thanks a lot !

59 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

@fireovertheice

I look forward to see that project.

Though I can predict what *some people* will have to say about the data: that you have so much free time (*insert sneer here*), and of course you're biased evil fanyus so who cares for the actual data and even if the numbers are ok they're just cold math that doesn't account for the magic of true artistry and so on

Hopefully the majority of fs fans will appreciate the work and find it very useful.

Yes, I know you are right: thank you for your concern.

For the possible comment about my free time, I do not care: everyone invest her/his free time as she/he is pleased

As I said, I did it just to understand some things and I want to share the data just because I hope that they will be useful to some others. If not, it has been interesting for me anyway.

For the bias as "Fanyu", I would like that they could show me where and how, because I am just counting things that are visible and countable to all, not discussing interpretation and so forth, where opinions can be also very different.

About the opposite criticism, i.e. math and number of transitions or crossovers are not important because they do not account the artistry and whatever, I would say that is true. But those numbers I am putting together are relevant for the marks of SS, and TR and in part the Composition, while artistry has to be scored in IN and PE.

And because to score SS, TR and CO you have to take in account aspects that in part are countable in time, in space and quantity/quality, why not do it ? In some way also the judges have to have an idea of the variety, quantity and quality of the transitions (TR), the amount of use of one foot skating and multidirectional skating, or the change of speed (SS),  of the pattern and ice coverage, or use of space (CO). How they do it?