General Skating Chat

[CupidsBow]

4 minutes ago, Eclair said:

Well I apologize if my first post sounded like Shoma was the evil in person and being super shady, which is not what I intended. 

But that doesn't mean, that I'm back-peddling. I think his strategy of trying to get his pre-rotations and edges overlooked is born out of necessity not evilness, still it requires a strategy to reach this goal and that is what I wrote: 

We won't see his lutz edge improve this season. We will see him saying that he's trying to improve it. We will see him adding the 4 lutz in practices and senior B's even though he's supposedly working to fix his edge. We'll We will probably see the pre-rotated quad flutz at GPF, Japanese Nationals and Olympics. And it probably won't get called there. 

 

Saying it's a strategy is ridiculous though. We might not see an improvement and he might say he's trying but he is not going to add the 4lz and have it planned that he'll use a wrong edge and UR and not get it called because there is no way he will know that it won't be called, he is more likely to be trying to make the best out of a jump he knows is shaky at best and hope he doesn't make a huge error on the day. If he has a wrong edge that isn't called that's bad judging and not his fault. If he has clear and obvious under-rotation that isn't marked that's bad judging and is not his fault. You are making it seem like something way more nefarious than 'he's probably going to chance it and hope for the best' and that's the problem I'm having with you right now. He cannot strategize to have URs and edge calls over looked, he can decide the potential reward for attempting the lz is worth the risk and chance it, but he can't bet on his not getting penalised for a bad attempt. I am not disagreeing with everything you are saying but the core of your argument is 'he is doing it knowing he won't get calls' which suggests some shady shit from him or his team. 

[Joey]

12 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

 

Off technique is his problem and his coaching teams' problem but off judging is not his fault and frankly, some of you have a nasty habit of exaggerating issues and calling judging a sham just because you don't personally agree with every call. If it's clear and obvious the jump had a problem and it wasn't called - that's bad judging. If you had to watch it HD at half speed 8 times to pin point the problem then it's not really that great of a crime that the tech panel missed it.

 

Well, I think if I can see something in real time sitting in 10th row at a comp, then I can expect the tech panel to see the same. That applies for example to Shomas 3lz at WC being a flutz or his 4Fs being pre-rotated by more than half a revolution. Honestly, go and look up what defines those jumps. There are clear rules for what differentiates a lutz from a flip from a loop from a salchow from an axel. And when a jump like Shomas 4Lz in that video is not even categorizeable anymore (honestly, I wouldn't have known what it is if not for the long outside edge set-up), we're reaching really big technical flaw category here.

(And the last part of your argument doesn't even hold water IMO when you realize tech panels are scrutinizing some skaters like this - but that's a whole different matter).

 

8 minutes ago, Danibellerika said:

Because he is in the conversation for Olympic gold now and who knows what could happen between now and 2022? You strike while the iron is hot and take your opportunities when you can (especially rare ones like this one) because you never know when they'll be there for you again.  

 

You take your opportunities - even if you do that while exploiting an unfair advantage? I guess that holds water if you look at results and in the end, many people won't care. But I think it's perfectly fair for others do not agree with that and criticize such a decision and strategy. It does make me feel for someone like Jason Brown, who struggled to get his quads for so long (and still does). I wonder if he couldn't have just decided to turn on that toe pick a little longer and woohoo, there it is. Big medal contender as well.

 

9 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

So incompetence and arrogance rather than negligence you think?  I have wondered several times whether Kanako would have had more success if she had gone abroad after Juniors- sounds as though she might.

 

I don't know much about Higuchi, but to be frank, with Yamada... I guess it's a mixture of all 3. And I agree about Kanako, I really loved her skating and her jumps were always big and powerful... she wouldn't have needed to leave Japan, but at least switch to a coach who would have maybe helped her keeping her technical issues to a minimum might have helped. It's super sad how she just kind of fell of the map and then r****d so quietly.

[Forcefield]

4 hours ago, Xen said:

Well I think and say that, but guys like to prove me wrong so meh.....

If it's called, yes it's a dumb decision, but then again sometimes you're so desperate that dumb decisions are considered rational. Though isn't Shoma going up against Patrick for Skate Canada, so who knows, it might get called there? 

Imagine if Shoma beats Patrick there and gets gold, it'll probably fire Yuzu up even more for the season (and maybe he'll consider going for 2-3 more years after PC to get gold at Skate Canada for once, although I imagine it'll be different to win without Patrick there if Patrick does r****).

[Xen]

35 minutes ago, Forcefield said:

FS newbie here and I'm asking a real question hoping for answers and not a fanwar, of the squad taking Nathan out of the equation for a bit - Shoma v Boyang. Shoma has advantage of the PCS and Boyang when scoring is fair have the advantage over the TES (but let me know if I'm wrong though). If scoring was more strict would Boyang's higher TES ever put him at an advantage over Shoma who has higher PCS? Or is the gap in their jumps too small and the skating skills too big for Boyang to win?

....well if all judging was fair and consistent across the board, my honest opinion of the quad boys are as follows:

• Nathan: I'm not sure why he's going for 7 quads. He has decent technique, some alignment issues, decent pcs possibilities. What he needs is time, which if he were to aim for 2022, he would get the time needed to develop all around. His issues are more easily corrected on technique and alignment. His current layout with 6-7 quads  makes me wonder 2 things: a) he doesn't care too much about 2022 and just wants to bank on the possibility of his BV alone now, considering he's already had knee issues, it's a fair guess. 2) He is thinking of 2022, but getting his quads out of the system now, so the guys coming up are aware of the 6-7 quad bar being a possibility, and if he's lucky he might get a medal anyways, even if judges think he's inconsistent he's got 3 more seasons to fix that impression, so win-win.
• Boyang: of the quadsters, I like him the most. In a fair world, I think he should get the highest TES scores among him, Nate and Shoma. Of the 3, he has probably the best jumping technique, and his PCS is decent (they were a bit underscored at worlds IMO).  PCS, skating skills are all things that time can fix, and he doesn't have a major flaw. I hope he continues to work with Lori Nichol, as his la strada even grew on me the more I watched, and with Zhao Hongbo at the helm of the chinese skating fed, I think artistry will get emphasized more, the coaching may even go more international. Of the 3, I think he enjoys skating the most. He's probably aiming for 2022, and before then he's working at his pace to get stuff done, and I think of the 3 he has the highest possibility to get +5 GOEs under the new system coming up.
• Shoma: He can definitely do well, his pcs is decent, but his alignment and jump technique is the worst of the 3 new guys. It might be possible that he corrects his technique in 3 seasons, but given his alignment issues I'm not sure that's fully possible. It might just be damage control. For those interested, go over to COP-ernicus section and check out the alignment issues threads. In a fair world, I think he might have the least shot of getting +5 GOEs under the next system.

Taking Yuzu out of the equation, in terms of Nate, Boyang and Shoma, assuming they all go to 2022. Based on the guys who have the highest possibility of fixing their current existing issues, and the ease of fixing their main problem areas, and assuming that judging is fair and consistent, I would go Boyang, then Nathan and then Shoma in terms of ranking.  I'm also looking forward to Cha Junhwa and Dennis. Of the Japanese boys coming up, I don't know....maybe Shimada since he's switched to Stephane now.

 

35 minutes ago, Joey said:

 

Not really sure how to say this nicely, but... Shoma has a really incompetent team when it comes to jumps. Between Yamadas students, the only worhtwhile discussion you can have is who manages to have the worst flutz of them all (and I'm saying that as a big fan of some of them). Remember how Mao tried for years and years to finally get rid of all her bad jumping habits (like a wrong lutz edge)? Yeah, thank Yamada for that. Or look at Kanako. Outside of Midori, I don't think any of her students even had decent technique.

(And before anyone feels sorry for the poor lady I'm so harsh on - remember that's the lady who threw shade like "skaters who train abroad always become rude". A+ xenophobia too).

I actually went to youtube and checked Shoma's novice comps- I think the flutz was already there. His left heel was lifting off the ice last. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kFWQW0u3Gkw So if it was already there, the issue might have gone down to his single lutz jumps. But considering how young he was when he did a single lutz, it may have been overlooked- kids can lift up into jumps because they are small, not necessarily because the technique was good. That is up to the coaches to correct. If he aims for a flat edge, it might be more doable than a +GOE edge.

 

[Eclair]

18 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

 

Saying it's a strategy is ridiculous though. We might not see an improvement and he might say he's trying but he is not going to add the 4lz and have it planned that he'll use a wrong edge and UR and not get it called because there is no way he will know that it won't be called, he is more likely to be trying to make the best out of a jump he knows is shaky at best and hope he doesn't make a huge error on the day. If he has a wrong edge that isn't called that's bad judging and not his fault. If he has clear and obvious under-rotation that isn't marked that's bad judging and is not his fault. You are making it seem like something way more nefarious than 'he's probably going to chance it and hope for the best' and that's the problem I'm having with you right now. He cannot strategize to have URs and edge calls over looked, he can decide the potential reward for attempting the lz is worth the risk and chance it, but he can't bet on his not getting penalised for a bad attempt. I am not disagreeing with everything you are saying but the core of your argument is 'he is doing it knowing he won't get calls' which suggests some shady shit from him or his team. 

I do understand that you're not totally again everything I say, but I still think we're not talking about the same thing. 

 

I was never an elite skater but I skated and let's assume I flutz regularly. I'd have an unstable, new triple flutz and a stable double flutz. I'd call myself stupid, if I didn't plan and think about which competitions to best add that triple flutz and 'hope for the best' and which not. I wouldn't call that being evil, or shady, but it being a necessity, given that for some reason I'm not able/willing to work on the lutz edge right now. At the same time, I'm not calling Shoma evil or shady, but I predicted which strategy would probably give him the best shot at 'hoping for the best'

[CupidsBow]

36 minutes ago, Joey said:

 

Well, I think if I can see something in real time sitting in 10th row at a comp, then I can expect the tech panel to see the same. That applies for example to Shomas 3lz at WC being a flutz or his 4Fs being pre-rotated by more than half a revolution. Honestly, go and look up what defines those jumps. There are clear rules for what differentiates a lutz from a flip from a loop from a salchow from an axel. And when a jump like Shomas 4Lz in that video is not even categorizeable anymore (honestly, I wouldn't have known what it is if not for the long outside edge set-up), we're reaching really big technical flaw category here.

(And the last part of your argument doesn't even hold water IMO when you realize tech panels are scrutinizing some skaters like this - but that's a whole different matter).

5

 

Bad judging and inconsistent judging is the fault of the judges and is up to the ISU to deal with. MAYBE Shoma/his coaching team is taking advantage of some preference being shown to him and dragging their heels/not bothering to fix his technique because there is no/little incentive to do so, but that is something the JUDGES need to change. Shoma does need to fix his technique, his coaches do need to address the bad practices - I agree with that! But anything to do with how he is being judged is not directly his fault unless you can provide some kind of proof that his team or the JSF or whoever is doing some dirty dealing with the judges to make sure he gets preferential treatment. I do see that judges tend to be soft on him, i do not like it, i do not think it is his doing or his fault.

 

[SSS]

two results of 4lz

1. It gets called. Low bv, negative GOE, because of edge issue, UR, politics by federation, other skaters have better 4lz, correct judging...(similar score to 3lz)

2. It does not get called. 4Lz high bv,  high GOE, because of politics by federation, always lenient judges in olympic season, 3lz not always getting called last season

What you can get from first result:

      no harm score wise, reputation on new quad, reputation on 4lz, compare to someone who does not have 4lz, media propaganda, high attempt bv, compare to someone who has low bv...

What you can get from second result:

      many points higher, reputation on new quad, reputation on 4lz, compare to someone who does not have 4lz, media propaganda, high attempt bv, compare to someone who has low bv... AND it is possible to WIN. and become No.1 in Japan...

 

The strategy is like gamble. No loss but big difference. Blame ISU for everything...

 

Joey, I miss you too

[CupidsBow]

2 minutes ago, Eclair said:

I do understand that you're not totally again everything I say, but I still think we're not talking about the same thing. 

 

I was never an elite skater but I skated and let's assume I flutz regularly. I'd have an unstable, new triple flutz and a stable double flutz. I'd call myself stupid, if I didn't plan and think about which competitions to best add that triple flutz and 'hope for the best' and which not. I wouldn't call that being evil, or shady, but it being a necessity, given that for some reason I'm not able/willing to work on the lutz edge right now. At the same time, I'm not calling Shoma evil or shady, but I predicted which strategy would probably give him the best shot at 'hoping for the best'

 

Look, my problem with what you're saying is you seem to think he is going to try it, not care if it's a wrong edge and UR, and count on the judges just giving him full BV and a neutral/+1 GOE whereas I'm more thinking he's going to do it and hope he can luck out, execute a passable 4lz (!) and not do a completely shit one. He's taking a risk and hoping it will pay off, sure, but he's not doing it hoping he can do an awful attempt and get full BV and + GOE, he's doing it hoping he can deliver a semi-good attempt when he needs to. Might he plan which comps are less risky to do that at? Maybe. It would probably be better if he just didn't add the 4lz at all until he fixed his edge but this is what he thinks he needs to have a shot at winning. 

 

Whatever. Have fun with your tin-foil hats. I'm going to sleep.

[Neenah]

What is Shoma's problem with the 4S? I don't understand why he is trying the 4Lz instead of the 4S which would give him 4 different quads without the gamble on edge calls?

[Danibellerika]

Just now, Joey said:

You take your opportunities - even if you do that while exploiting an unfair advantage? I guess that holds water if you look at results and in the end, many people won't care. But I think it's perfectly fair for others do not agree with that and criticize such a decision and strategy. It does make me feel for someone like Jason Brown, who struggled to get his quads for so long (and still does). I wonder if he couldn't have just decided to turn on that toe pick a little longer and woohoo, there it is. Big medal contender as well.

 

Shoma isn't in this for anybody other than Shoma. He is the one working everyday for it. He is the one that has to skate it. It's his dream. Everybody doesn't have to like it, but someway or another all of the heavy hitters are in cross hairs for their decisions and strategy. People don't think it's fair when you can repeat programs. People don't think it's fair when you skate to the same style or layout. People don't think it's fair when you can land a bunch of quads with hardly any choreography or transitions and still get good PCS scores.  None of that will matter to any one of them as long as they have gold around their neck and come home to a heroes welcome. 

5 minutes ago, Neenah said:

What is Shoma's problem with the 4S? I don't understand why he is trying the 4Lz instead of the 4S which would give him 4 different quads without the gamble on edge calls?

It's not worth as much and he hasn't had as much success on it in practice. 

[Eclair]

7 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

 

Look, my problem with what you're saying is you seem to think he is going to try it, not care if it's a wrong edge and UR, and count on the judges just giving him full BV and a neutral/+1 GOE whereas I'm more thinking he's going to do it and hope he can luck out, execute a passable 4lz (!) and not do a completely shit one. He's taking a risk and hoping it will pay off, sure, but he's not doing it hoping he can do an awful attempt and get full BV and + GOE, he's doing it hoping he can deliver a semi-good attempt when he needs to. Might he plan which comps are less risky to do that at? Maybe. It would probably be better if he just didn't add the 4lz at all until he fixed his edge but this is what he thinks he needs to have a shot at winning. 

 

Whatever. Have fun with your tin-foil hats. I'm going to sleep.

You should read the book 'the second mark' before going to sleep. Then you'd be wearing tin-foil hats too. 

[SSS]

It seems that Yamada's skaters have high toe pick leg..Why do they need it?

[Danibellerika]

Mod reminder:

While I know there are going to be disagreements of opinion, name calling and profanity towards members and skaters are not acceptable.  

[xeyra]

This reminds me it was Yuzu's strategy early in his career to use a 3Fe instead of a 3Lo. 

[Joey]

19 minutes ago, Danibellerika said:

Shoma isn't in this for anybody other than Shoma. He is the one working everyday for it. He is the one that has to skate it. It's his dream. Everybody doesn't have to like it, but someway or another all of the heavy hitters are in cross hairs for their decisions and strategy. People don't think it's fair when you can repeat programs. People don't think it's fair when you skate to the same style or layout. People don't think it's fair when you can land a bunch of quads with hardly any choreography or transitions and still get good PCS scores.  None of that will matter to any one of them as long as they have gold around their neck and come home to a heroes welcome.

 

Not sure how this is related to what I wrote - of course all of them are in it for themselves. Repeating programs or not is not a compareable issue at all though. It's allowed according to the rules, so if people like it or not, they can't argue for it affecting scores/placements/results (though of course everyone is allowed to voice criticism, disappointment and so on). But a lutz edge is supposed to be an outside edge, that's according to the rules, not peoples preferecnes.

 

And it does matter to some of them. Yuzu has worked on stuff/taken risks that wouldn't give him points (last years music choices for example). Nathan could continue to rack in high PCS despite little choreo, yet the snippets of his new SP suggest he's working a lot on "rightly" improving his PCS. And people are free to laud these skaters for that just as much as they are to criticize another skater for taking shortcuts.

 

PS: thank you SSS, you're sweet