General Skating Chat

[mcq]

@Meoima

Ah I will miss gkelly, always offer knowledgeable and good insight in skating. Neutral and fair too.

[beki]

They ignore it, but they could drop the sword any day. How is that not like what happened to Kanako and others? An uncertain way of life. The sun won't shine forever.

[Hanmgse]

Shoma and Nathan's approach could help quad their ways to the podium, but they're never going to be remembered in history as the greatest, among which Yuzu already is one. And I personally find it distasteful how much they seem to be okay with winning through subpar performances. If they actually do come out on top, it'll be such hollow victories

That's unfair to them. They are playing the system in a way they can like everyone else and they are doing what they can at the moment. Just like Yuzuru when he was younger and his PCS weren't that good, thanks to his technical stuff he was able to improve his marks. I do think it's getting crazy with all the quads but at the end of the day these youngsters are doing what they can to catch on Yuzu, I'm sure they'll improve.

[itiahs]

I don't blame anybody to be honest, it's hard to see pre-rotation in real time for the judges. and tech panel can be inconsistent with edge calls.

It's sports and they're all competing within the rules allowed.

I'm just disappointed in the system (as ever)

And yuzuru, well he is on another level of skating OCD, he has standards up there in the stratosphere. The double edged sword is that he makes it hard for himself...well he confessed himself that when it comes to skating he's a masochist, LOL

[Katt]

But not for them. They're ambitious youngsters. This is what they want. Nathan wants to win OGM so he can (probably) r**** and go study medicine; Shoma wants to get out from under Yuzu's shadow. And they want to win, as much as anyone else, and thus their strategy of choice. And if their strategies are rewarded, why would they change them just to satisfy someone else's idea of what a good victory would be?

 

This. I remember back then 2012-2013, many people said that Yuzu's chance will be at 2018 but Yuzuru himself didn't think so. He wrote a letter to David Wilson and there's something like "I don't want to wait till 2018, I want it know". I can see that Shoma and Nathan might feel the same. Since they still young, they can be a bit reckless and risk everything if they get what they want. Their goal are medals, not to win everyone's heart (right now of course)

 

I'm glad Yuzuru compete during the period when judges still harsh when it came to GOE/PCS. If he's a few year younger, I don't know what would happened.

[beki]

I do blame some of the coaches a little. Shoma is talented, but he wasn't taught properly, and now it will be a struggle for him to correct his technique. It's so much harder if you don't do it right the first time. Ignoring prerotation for the moment, who has corrected their takeoff edges? Yuzu and Joanie Rochette are the only ones I can think of. Let me know if there are more.

[OmNom]

Yeah it might be a tad bit early at this stage to judge how they approach the sport, especially when they still have some time in the future to adjust and improve. But a controversial win might not prove to be in favour of their future careers, which is why I don't think it's beneficial to any party, even if the youngsters themselves believe they're okay with it

[Yatagarasu]

I'm sure they'll improve.

 

I don't share this belief at all, this last Shoma interview actually assures me more than ever of that.

 

It isn't even that they ignore his URs and that only rarely they give him a ! on his Lz (WTT was the exception but I doubt very much it's a beginning of a trend). It's that flip that should never, never be accepted as a flip. It is so bad that at this point it really is a merger of two or even three jumps, because as someone pointed it out on GS, at which point do we start calling this a creative entry to an Axel?

 

To have this changed, judges must start calling it. It's not going to happen just like that. Yuzuru got his Lip calls and worked on it for example. Unless the system starts punishing them, there is nothing in it for them not to continue as they have been. PCS in general has gone completely bonkers so Marina will simply package Nathan properly and that'll be that. They want it and they don't care how they get it, and why should they? Do you really think anyone but a few skating fanatics will care?

[unicorn]

xeyra said:

Look, even if Shoma really does go ahead and train a 4Lz, I don't think the technical panel is going to be as lenient to a 4Flutz as they are with a pre-rotated 4F. Especially if Yuzu decides to bring a 4Lz into Oly season too. And Kolyada manages to land his. That'd be two new (potential) textbook perfect 4Lz there, adding to Boyang's (and in a lesser way, Nathan's), and would fuel comparisons.

 

Unless he fixes his edge in one off-season at the same time he learns the 4Lz, which doesn't seem like such an easy thing to do, to learn both a new quad and fix a long-standing edge issue. He's better off just going for the 4S no matter that he thinks a higher BV quad is the way to go, and I hope he will eventually see that too.

 

Anyways, I've been meaning to ask something, not sure if it's the best place here for it. How many boots does Yuzu usually go through, do you guys know? Reading about how Nathan goes through a pair of boots every 1-2 months makes me wonder if this is normal or is it just because Nathan trains so many quads and/or seems to have heavier landings than Yuzu, Javi or Patrick?

I actually think that at the Olympics, there tends to be more lenient panels. Partly because they want audiences to feel like there's good skating going on, so Seasons Bests and Personal Bests are handed out easily. But also because they don't really want to overly punish what is not super visible to the casual viewers. Just my thoughts. I mean, Shoma himself said that although he's trained and landed quad sals, he'd rather go for the 4Lz because it's more worth it. Even if he flutzes it, it seems like that's what he'd rather pursue, which I think follows what he cherishes most about skating, "to attack" (this was from a recent interview with Team Japan, where Yuzuru said his most cherished aspect of skating is "to soar"). He's clearly very ambitious, and he's quite balanced between his PCS and TES, and Yuzuru of all people is aware of that. He even follows junior skaters like Alexei Krasnozhon's 4Lo attempt, or Vincent Zhou's ripponed 4Lz, he's always super aware of his competition, and I think he will act accordingly. He's used strategies that I initially disagreed with until he proved that he was right all along.

 

Although Yuzuru was also very ambitious heading into Sochi, I'm glad that Tracy and Brian really, really made him pay attention to his skating skills and transitions, it's served him so well in the long run.

 

Sorry I can't answer about the boots, I would assume he goes through every 2-3 months, just because he doesn't have to train as many quads as Nathan I think.

[itiahs]

I do blame some of the coaches a little. Shoma is talented, but he wasn't taught properly, and now it will be a struggle for him to correct his technique. It's so much harder if you don't do it right the first time. Ignoring prerotation for the moment, who has corrected their takeoff edges? Yuzu and Joanie Rochette are the only ones I can think of. Let me know if there are more.

True, the coaches shoulder some responsibility.

Looking at Mao and Kanako who were such strong natural jumpers I think about what might have been

[beki]

I do blame some of the coaches a little. Shoma is talented, but he wasn't taught properly, and now it will be a struggle for him to correct his technique. It's so much harder if you don't do it right the first time. Ignoring prerotation for the moment, who has corrected their takeoff edges? Yuzu and Joanie Rochette are the only ones I can think of. Let me know if there are more.

True, the coaches shoulder some responsibility.

Looking at Mao and Kanako who were such strong natural jumpers I think about what might have been

Yes! I think of that often :cry:

[Dara]

I do blame some of the coaches a little. Shoma is talented, but he wasn't taught properly, and now it will be a struggle for him to correct his technique. It's so much harder if you don't do it right the first time. Ignoring prerotation for the moment, who has corrected their takeoff edges? Yuzu and Joanie Rochette are the only ones I can think of. Let me know if there are more.

Mao had flutz, Kana had flutz... seem certain coaching team doesn't pay enough attention to such details.

[xeyra]

[

I actually think that at the Olympics, there tends to be more lenient panels. Partly because they want audiences to feel like there's good skating going on, so Seasons Bests and Personal Bests are handed out easily. But also because they don't really want to overly punish what is not super visible to the casual viewers. Just my thoughts. I mean, Shoma himself said that although he's trained and landed quad sals, he'd rather go for the 4Lz because it's more worth it. Even if he flutzes it, it seems like that's what he'd rather pursue, which I think follows what he cherishes most about skating, "to attack" (this was from a recent interview with Team Japan, where Yuzuru said his most cherished aspect of skating is "to soar"). He's clearly very ambitious, and he's quite balanced between his PCS and TES, and Yuzuru of all people is aware of that. He even follows junior skaters like Alexei Krasnozhon's 4Lo attempt, or Vincent Zhou's ripponed 4Lz, he's always super aware of his competition, and I think he will act accordingly. He's used strategies that I initially disagreed with until he proved that he was right all along. :rofl:

You're right there. I forgot the Olympics are going to be geared to the common denominator watching on TV (hence all the warhorses) so the judging is going to be wild.

[meoima]

I'm sure they'll improve.

 

I don't share this belief at all, this last Shoma interview actually assures me more than ever of that.

 

It isn't even that they ignore his URs and that only rarely they give him a ! on his Lz (WTT was the exception but I doubt very much it's a beginning of a trend). It's that flip that should never, never be accepted as a flip. It is so bad that at this point it really is a merger of two or even three jumps, because as someone pointed it out on GS, at which point do we start calling this a creative entry to an Axel?

 

To have this changed, judges must start calling it. It's not going to happen just like that. Yuzuru got his Lip calls and worked on it for example. Unless the system starts punishing them, there is nothing in it for them not to continue as they have been. PCS in general has gone completely bonkers so Marina will simply package Nathan properly and that'll be that. They want it and they don't care how they get it, and why should they? Do you really think anyone but a few skating fanatics will care?

Several posters on FSuniverse express the same concern, and believe, they dislike Yuzuru as hell.

They are like this about Shoma's jumps: "This is not even a flip, what the hell is this? Is this a loop? Is this a salchow?"

How can skaters improve if they do not get called for the wrong technique they do?

At least Nathan has correct take off in the toe jumps. And his package with bombastic music sounds easy to judges' ears. I can understand somehow.

Judges will just ignore the whole technical issues next season. They will change system after that anyway.

[Hanmgse]

I'm sure they'll improve.

 

I don't share this belief at all, this last Shoma interview actually assures me more than ever of that.

 

It isn't even that they ignore his URs and that only rarely they give him a ! on his Lz (WTT was the exception but I doubt very much it's a beginning of a trend). It's that flip that should never, never be accepted as a flip. It is so bad that at this point it really is a merger of two or even three jumps, because as someone pointed it out on GS, at which point do we start calling this a creative entry to an Axel?

 

To have this changed, judges must start calling it. It's not going to happen just like that. Yuzuru got his Lip calls and worked on it for example. Unless the system starts punishing them, there is nothing in it for them not to continue as they have been. PCS in general has gone completely bonkers so Marina will simply package Nathan properly and that'll be that. They want it and they don't care how they get it, and why should they? Do you really think anyone but a few skating fanatics will care?

I'm talking more of a general improvement as skaters. Shoma won't be remembered for his technical side but he can try to balance both sides of his skating since he is much better in PCS. And even if judges don't call out incorrect technique that doesn't mean he can't improve by his own will, specially since bad technique means also more injuries and if he wants a larger career he needs to adress those problems.