General Skating Chat

[yuzuangel]

13 minutes ago, Forcefield said:

You guys are awesome, and I wish I didn't have to break the flow of discussion, but please help out a newbie here: what is a rippon and what is a tano? Are there gifs? Honestly, literally, I've been wondering about them for ages and didn't think I could find it in FS guides which mainly explained jumps and other major scoring stuff and not moves - plus it didn't even help when I googled it (or maybe I just didn't find the right keywords).

Rippon: two hands above the head. Tano: one hand above the head   BTW I posted this thread, the first one is a rippon and the second two are tanos. And yuzu's is a rippon. Click on the videos and they will play at the right moment.

 

ETA: Here is tano queen Evgenia doing her tano on the first jump:

 

And here's bb's emergency rippon 2T at the end of his (failed ) combo:

[yuzuangel]

21 minutes ago, kaerb said:

Ah, I miswrote - I meant a pop from quad to triple, not downgraded triple in the technical sense. I'm just having fun speculating on if there's any scenario where a popped triple can get +3/high +2 GOES. Realistically probably not likely since it's not something you can prepare for until that split second. Maybe if he yolo'd with a tano....... Hard to imagine Yuzu with a tano though  

Hmm...a quad lutz popped into a triple lutz, if it's a nice triple lutz, could be a +2. Or +3 if the 4Lz was planned with steps in and out of it  But of course, +3 for a triple is worth only +2.1 bc of GOE scaling, and the full +3 for a quad.

 

It's hard to imagine a solo 3T being a +2 or +3 but again, depends on if it was performed with transitions/musical structure/effortless etc.

[yuzuangel]

8 hours ago, xeyra said:

 

Also, combinations don't get any higher BV if they're a harder combination. So, for example, a 4T3T is worth the same as a 3T4T, because they just sum up the Base Value of the individual jumps.

Isn't this something they've been planning on changing? Or was it just disgruntled fans talking about it? I think it's something that they should change to encourage more "fun" combinations. A 4S-lo-4S? 

[kaeryth]

18 minutes ago, kaerb said:

HAH I didn't even think of that. Now I'm laughing imagining Yuzu doing Evgenia-frequency tanos and Brian in the background like 

Speaking of....what did people call rippons before Adam? Or was he the one who created the move (because he's so young! was this a recent trend?)

 

I don't think there's a specific name for it. Actually, I think it's an American-centric naming because I've never heard that term from non-American commentators (kinda like Zayaking is from Elaine Zayak because I've heard Russians name the Zayak phenomenon as doing a Nobunari Oda ). Adam's best jump was a 3Lz with his 2 arms aloft and he used it so much it became his 'signature move' and people started calling it a Rippon Lutz. And then for whatever reason it evolved into calling any jump with two arms aloft as Rippons.

[yuzuangel]

Just now, kaeryth said:

 

I don't think there's a specific name for it. Actually, I think it's an American-centric naming because I've never heard that term from non-American commentators (kinda like Zayaking is from Elaine Zayak because I've heard Russians name the Zayak phenomenon as doing a Nobunari Oda ). Adam's best jump was a 3Lz with his 2 arms aloft and he used it so much it became his 'signature move' and people started calling it a Rippon Lutz. And then for whatever reason it evolved into calling any jump with two arms aloft as Rippons.

Come to think of it, I think foreign commentators call it "the arm aloft" or "both arms above the head" or something, they don't use the word tano either. And also the bolded is hilarious.

[axelsandwich]

13 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

 

I don't think there's a specific name for it. Actually, I think it's an American-centric naming because I've never heard that term from non-American commentators (kinda like Zayaking is from Elaine Zayak because I've heard Russians name the Zayak phenomenon as doing a Nobunari Oda ). Adam's best jump was a 3Lz with his 2 arms aloft and he used it so much it became his 'signature move' and people started calling it a Rippon Lutz. And then for whatever reason it evolved into calling any jump with two arms aloft as Rippons.

Ah, that's fair enough. So there's no formal name for the move, just colloquial names that vary with geographies. The Oda thing is hilarious, poor thing  

 

After seeing some other tanos, I kind of get what people mean when they criticise Evgenia's tano arm for being 'bent'. I know for a fact that it definitely looks more impressive to people who aren't so familiar with FS since I had friends comment on it when I've showed them videos lol 

[Forcefield]

26 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

Rippon: two hands above the head. Tano: one hand above the head   BTW I posted this thread, the first one is a rippon and the second two are tanos. And yuzu's is a rippon. Click on the videos and they will play at the right moment.

 

ETA: Here is tano queen Evgenia doing her tano on the first jump:

 

And here's bb's emergency rippon 2T at the end of his (failed ) combo:

Thank you! That's so easy to understand. And aww Zuzu 

[xeyra]

1 hour ago, kaerb said:

Ah, thank you for this! It's a bit of an exponential curve in terms of points, isn't it? I guess you either risk the fall deduction (and deduction in PCS) but with full rotation, or you go for the pop, stay on your feet and maybe keep the 'flow' of the program stronger (though, personally, I feel like pops are basically perceived as falls/'I screwed up' that will impact PCS regardless, especially if it's a single or double). If we go by that table, a fully rotated quad + fall with -3 GOEs is still 4.0. I think avoiding injury is the main strategy for popping instead of going for it. Do pops (especially downgraded triples since they're the only ones that could be competitive) ever get +GOES or is there a minus simply for deviating from the intended layout? (not counting Yuzu's inexplicable +0.9 at WTT for his 1A lol)  

 

Patrick has gotten quite a few positive GOE 4T pops, since he pops them into triples and he just tends to stop the rotation sooner thus it looks like a nice triple. So although one knows it's a pop, it's still a pretty triple.  

 

Yuzu does seem to pop into singles/doubles more often than not, but I agree that he tends to be more sensitive to whether his jumps are going to work on takeoff itself (he's said this before, actually) and thus tends to pop them earlier. 

[SparkleSalad]

2 hours ago, kaeryth said:

I don't skate but here's what Johnny Weir had to say about pops during Yuzu's 2013 SC FS.

 

 

Thanks for sharing this. Good to finally start to understand about popping. I'd never watched it because I fall into a deep sleep during RJ2, though I have recently changed from hating to loving the costume to pieces. Johnny's very quotable in this one, too:

 

"He fought his face off."

"They should defintely have him on the Pooh-dium"

[kaeryth]

7 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Patrick has gotten quite a few positive GOE 4T pops, since he pops them into triples and he just tends to stop the rotation sooner thus it looks like a nice triple. So although one knows it's a pop, it's still a pretty triple.  

 

Yuzu does seem to pop into singles/doubles more often than not, but I agree that he tends to be more sensitive to whether his jumps are going to work on takeoff itself (he's said this before, actually) and thus tends to pop them earlier. 

 

Yeah... you can definitely tell when Yuzu pops even if you don't know his layout. I think someone from CBC (I'm pretty sure it was Uncle Kurt) described Yuzu's pops as "like a parachute opening up".

[bubbletea0712]

I think I need to learn to calculate score by @xeyra hahaha. It's look so interesting

[fluffypooh]

1 hour ago, kaeryth said:

 

I don't think there's a specific name for it. Actually, I think it's an American-centric naming because I've never heard that term from non-American commentators (kinda like Zayaking is from Elaine Zayak because I've heard Russians name the Zayak phenomenon as doing a Nobunari Oda ). Adam's best jump was a 3Lz with his 2 arms aloft and he used it so much it became his 'signature move' and people started calling it a Rippon Lutz. And then for whatever reason it evolved into calling any jump with two arms aloft as Rippons.

Now I really want they name a move after Yuzu 

[xeyra]

On 18/7/2017 at 3:35 AM, moni said:

@xeyra, I only reacted to the fact that you said the difference in BV can't be more than 10-15 points. I just wanted to show that it actually can. But yes, only against Nathan, not Shoma/Javi. I know GOE/PCS will change and the skaters won't stay static but really the worst possible scenario (and still not very likely) is Nathan having 3 more quads than Yuzu. 

And I wrote it also because some people (not you and not necessary on the Planet) are panicking "what if Nathan lands all his 7 quads". Well, if he lands it all he will make the history and it will be great but at the same time if Yuzu skates perfectly clean he won't have to worry about Nathan's score. IMHO, I just don't see Nathan to be Yuzu's greatest threat. That's all.

 

I understand and I apologize, since I think I came a bit too strong even though essentially we agree and the math does help show it. The 10-15 BV difference interval was probably unnecessarily small.  But I also don't want to dismiss Nathan and his ability to work on his GOEs or actually land his jumps, which is why I think Yuzu does need to up some of his BV too. He already did it with the SP and I expect something in the FS too. Nathan's GOEs/PCS right now might not be strong, but there's no guarantee they won't improve next season, or that he won't backload more jumps and thus increase his BV even further. And although the higher BV doesn't necessarily win, as we've seen, I'm always weary to consider last season as indicative of what to expect, because we never got to see Nathan land his 6-quads at Worlds to see exactly how that would have scored (if better or worse than 4CC). However, I do think he may have lost some momentum with his troubles at Worlds and he's going to have to build it again. 

 

Shoma, as seen rather well at Worlds, is the one closest to touching Yuzu, because he's also more well-rounded, but adding a 4Lz will definitely not be easy for him. Neither will it for Yuzu, to be honest, but aside from replacing a 4S3T for a 4Lo3T and/or a 3A for a second 4T, the only way to raise BV for Yuzu is the 4Lz. Or go Zagitova and backload all the jumps. 

 

But I also think Yuzu could get by with 4 different quads, if one of them is a 4Lz (no need for 5 quads, which may affect a program), as long as he wouldn't pop the 4Lz, because he'd be able to essentially keep the layout as is and we know the scoring potential of a good SP and that kind of FS. 

 

On 18/7/2017 at 3:41 AM, moni said:

BTW, is there any other footage of Yuzu's 4Lz attempts except these four? His technique fascinates me.

 

2014 TCC media day (2:40) :  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x29ekg5

2014 FAOI Toyama (12:47) : http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x27qx8k

NYOI 2016: https://www.instagram.com/p/BEd_N7GKEJr/

WTT 2017: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9CAbVUhqkVg?

 

 

Funny, I'd never seen the first two attempts, only the latter. The last one is the more indicative of what his 4Lz is like at this point. It's fascinating how he basically trained it with the same short entry of his 3Lz. No long running edge going into it, just a wham bam thank you ma'am 4Lz. 

 

[bubbletea0712]

2 minutes ago, fluffypooh said:

Now I really want they name a move after Yuzu 

That delay single axel on Notte Stella might be Hanyu axel?

[yuzuangel]

If Nathan lands 2+7 quads with 3 quad lutzes and 2 quad flips, and Yuzu has a 4-quad layout (even with the 4Lz), it might be a tossup. Because IMO Olympics scoring is a way different beast. It might depend on the skating order, honestly. And just how empty that program is. The person who wins seems to be the person they want to market the most/has more of a "moment"/makes a great sob or success story. I might just be overly pessimistic. Sochi 2014 has really jaded me.