General Skating Chat

[Yume]

Scoring according to what is done on ice is simplier.

They can change rules, programs, but their corrupt minds will always find a way to give scores that don't reflect the skating.

[hoodie axel]

Just now, Yume said:

Scoring according to what is done on ice is simplier. 

They can change rules, programs, but their corrupt minds will always find a way to give scores that don't reflect the skating.

So scoring according to what is done on ice isn't simpler

[Yume]

58 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

So scoring according to what is done on ice isn't simpler 

Simpler for innocent minds.

[yuzuangel]

Proposal: have skaters submit a list of things they will do including transitions in and out of each jump, and have each element scored beforehand. That makes it easy and fast to judge the element; you just have to see if skaters do what they say and adjust for any changes. Much easier than to count transitions/steps without knowing what the skater is trying to do. Each element that does not get done correctly gets a deduction, like in gymnastics. For example, an ina bauer into a jump gets +points for transition, but if you drop the ina bauer you get a deduction from the base value. Lack of rotation gets a deduction. Jump height should be scored without regard to body type or height. In other sports, scores do not get adjusted for the athlete's height or length of their legs.

 

This way scoring is more transparent, as skaters can't get points for elements they don't claim to be doing, and it will be easy to see if skaters actually did what they are getting points for.

[kaeryth]

I'm going for the extreme... do away with the planned program content. (but this would mean trusting judges so LOL jokes one me).

I'm convinced judges / tech panel aren't as incompetent as we think. They know exactly what they're doing.

 

Case in point. 4CC'18 - Shoma's 4F-fall in the FS. The tes box started out saying 3F (as it rightly should I think that one was prerotated more than his normal PR). Then after a while the tes box changed it to a 4F (which was in his PPC). Final scoresheet? 4F <.

 

Worlds 2019 - Sofia S. had 2 3F and a 3Lz in her PPC. For her '3Lz' the tes box showed 3F... then she did the 2nd 3F that was in her PPC. Tes box showed 3F+REP (because she's technically done 3 3Fs)... Final scoresheet? 2 3F's and 1 3Lz (not even a wrong edge call).

 

 

[Yuzu_GOAT]

4 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

Proposal: have skaters submit a list of things they will do including transitions in and out of each jump, and have each element scored beforehand. That makes it easy and fast to judge the element; you just have to see if skaters do what they say and adjust for any changes. Much easier than to count transitions/steps without knowing what the skater is trying to do. Each element that does not get done correctly gets a deduction, like in gymnastics. For example, an ina bauer into a jump gets +points for transition, but if you drop the ina bauer you get a deduction from the base value. Lack of rotation gets a deduction. Jump height should be scored without regard to body type or height. In other sports, scores do not get adjusted for the athlete's height or length of their legs.

 

This way scoring is more transparent, as skaters can't get points for elements they don't claim to be doing, and it will be easy to see if skaters actually did what they are getting points for.

Something like this could work actually. 

[hoodie axel]

4 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

Proposal: have skaters submit a list of things they will do including transitions in and out of each jump, and have each element scored beforehand. That makes it easy and fast to judge the element; you just have to see if skaters do what they say and adjust for any changes. Much easier than to count transitions/steps without knowing what the skater is trying to do. Each element that does not get done correctly gets a deduction, like in gymnastics. For example, an ina bauer into a jump gets +points for transition, but if you drop the ina bauer you get a deduction from the base value. Lack of rotation gets a deduction. Jump height should be scored without regard to body type or height. In other sports, scores do not get adjusted for the athlete's height or length of their legs. 

How does this work with spins and steps?

 

4 hours ago, kaeryth said:

Worlds 2019 - Sofia S. had 2 3F and a 3Lz in her PPC. For her '3Lz' the tes box showed 3F... then she did the 2nd 3F that was in her PPC. Tes box showed 3F+REP (because she's technically done 3 3Fs)... Final scoresheet? 2 3F's and 1 3Lz (not even a wrong edge call).

Well, Samodurova didn't deserve an edge call, it was (!) at worst. I don't think the ISU's incompetence should be taken as a good thing.

[WinForPooh]

5 hours ago, kaeryth said:

I'm going for the extreme... do away with the planned program content. (but this would mean trusting judges so LOL jokes one me).

I'm convinced judges / tech panel aren't as incompetent as we think. They know exactly what they're doing.

 

Case in point. 4CC'18 - Shoma's 4F-fall in the FS. The tes box started out saying 3F (as it rightly should I think that one was prerotated more than his normal PR). Then after a while the tes box changed it to a 4F (which was in his PPC). Final scoresheet? 4F <.

 

Worlds 2019 - Sofia S. had 2 3F and a 3Lz in her PPC. For her '3Lz' the tes box showed 3F... then she did the 2nd 3F that was in her PPC. Tes box showed 3F+REP (because she's technically done 3 3Fs)... Final scoresheet? 2 3F's and 1 3Lz (not even a wrong edge call).

 

 

 

Imagine the Discourse^TM  after each competition.

 

But will it matter? Vincent's barely level 2 step sequence got a level 4 from judges and there's no planned outline of individual steps and turns submitted in advance... 

 

ETA: But I agree that judges and TP aren't actually that incompetent, it seems obvious from protocols when you get beyond the top five or six skaters. They seem to be able to judge skaters who don't make top five pretty accurately, though they still have a problem with corridor judging and don't give PE and IN marks for skaters who deserve it but don't have the tech.

 

JUSTICE FOR MY PUMPKIN KING!!

[hoodie axel]

I am extremely proud of myself, re-reading my previous response, that I got Samodurova's name right in one go!

 

6 minutes ago, WinForPooh said:

But I agree that judges and TP aren't actually that incompetent, it seems obvious from protocols when you get beyond the top five or six skaters. They seem to be able to judge skaters who don't make top five pretty accurately, though they still have a problem with corridor judging and don't give PE and IN marks for skaters who deserve it but don't have the tech. 

Well, not really, I'd say... There were several errors that had happened for lower ranked skaters in the GP events in 2017, for instance, that combined with the errors of the higher ranked skaters pushed them into a much lower position.

 

It's actually hilarious to see the kind of manipulation that happens to keep the momentum of big-name skaters going.

[shanshani]

I would say the judging is actually in many ways consistently worse for lower ranked skaters--they're often given piddly GOE for jumps that would have gotten at least +3 if they were executed by a top skater, routinely under scored on PCS, and generally not given the benefit of the doubt on anything in a way that artificially creates massive gaps between them and the top skaters.

[WinForPooh]

15 minutes ago, shanshani said:

I would say the judging is actually in many ways consistently worse for lower ranked skaters--they're often given piddly GOE for jumps that would have gotten at least +3 if they were executed by a top skater, routinely under scored on PCS, and generally not given the benefit of the doubt on anything in a way that artificially creates massive gaps between them and the top skaters.

 

I think that's a reflection on how overscored the top skaters are in general! Lower ranked skaters have to actually hit the bullets for positive GOE and get hit hard if they meet negative GOE bullets, they're judged according to the strictest letter of the rules. PCS corridor judging, however, is a problem with lower ranked skaters. Just like it is with higher ranked skaters but in the other direction.  I kind of think all GOE judging should be more like what lower ranked skaters get. They don't hit height and distance obviously enough to meet that bullet? Fine, then neither do half the top skaters and they should also get similar GOE cap for that. 

 

I think if they'd go in this direction, then we would actually be able to see the score differentiation between average and very good and superlative. 

[WinForPooh]

42 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

I am extremely proud of myself, re-reading my previous response, that I got Samodurova's name right in one go!

 

Well, not really, I'd say... There were several errors that had happened for lower ranked skaters in the GP events in 2017, for instance, that combined with the errors of the higher ranked skaters pushed them into a much lower position.

 

It's actually hilarious to see the kind of manipulation that happens to keep the momentum of big-name skaters going.

 

They're not perfect obviously, but it looks like actual mistakes with lower ranked skaters and studied incompetence with higher ranked ones. The actual mistakes look like mistakes but the studied incompetence is the overriding trend.

[shanshani]

1 minute ago, WinForPooh said:

 

I think that's a reflection on how overscored the top skaters are in general! Lower ranked skaters have to actually hit the bullets for positive GOE and get hit hard if they meet negative GOE bullets, they're judged according to the strictest letter of the rules. PCS corridor judging, however, is a problem with lower ranked skaters. Just like it is with higher ranked skaters but in the other direction.  I kind of think all GOE judging should be more like what lower ranked skaters get. They don't hit height and distance obviously enough to meet that bullet? Fine, then neither do half the top skaters and they should also get similar GOE cap for that. 

 

I think if they'd go in this direction, then we would actually be able to see the score differentiation between average and very good and superlative. 

Sure, but I actually think lower ranked skaters are often genuinely underscored (ie. should have gotten higher based on the bullets they hit).

[WinForPooh]

4 minutes ago, shanshani said:

Sure, but I actually think lower ranked skaters are often genuinely underscored (ie. should have gotten higher based on the bullets they hit).

 

I'd agree with you in general actually. Except the bullets are worded so vaguely that they could say 'it wasn't good enough' to air position, height, distance and so on for jumps and there isn't much to say to that except to point out how higher ranked skaters need to do a lot less to get 'good' air position, height or distance on their jumps. I've always kind of taken it to mean that the judges and TP actually have extremely high standards for what these 'good' markers are, but their standards are irrelevant when they judge top skaters because their scores are already kind of... set in a way. 

 

But most specifically in the case of UR and edges? They can see them all just fine for lower ranked skaters. Go to the second half of protocols and carrots everywhere.

[hoodie axel]

https://www.sport-express.ru/figure-skating/reviews/my-pomogaem-medvedevoy-izmeneniya-kosnutsya-vseh-vice-prezident-isu-o-novyh-pravilah-i-12-rossiyankah-na-gran-pri-1552839/

 

(Translation here: https://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?81076-Interview-with-Lakernik-on-rule-changes&p=2409065#post2409065 )

 

Embrace yourselves for backwards logic, folks!

 

Quote

- Alexander Rafailovich, one of the main events of the offseason is another tweak of the rules. Is it correct to understand that this was done in order to encourage skaters who take risks so that they would not be afraid to go for difficult jumps?

- That is rather wrong. Simply put, the last year's decision, that an underrotation of exactly one quarter of a turn would already get a call and lower the score had lead to too many underrotations. And the technical committee decided to soften the situation. It is unlikely that someone thought about encouraging jumping people.

Yaaaas, kinnnnng! (instead of, you know, just going back to the "more than 90" standard, they decided to reinvent the BVs. Lmao.)

 

Quote

- At the last World Championships, we witnessed the work of the Ice Scope program, which measured the jump height and other characteristics. Did you like it, will you strive for more automatic judging?

- For now thats not the focus, ISU has shown interest in these developments. We listened to the representatives of the developers, but we asked certain questions. For example: height, length is important, but we do not have a length or height competition. We asked if developers can measure jump rotations. Then it will be interesting to us.

Probable UO, but this IS a good thing in my book. Yes, measure jump rotation please, and I'm guessing they mean "height or length comparison" which is also true that it doesn't exist. But also ACTUALLY FIGURE A STANDARD FOR MEASURING WHERE THE JUMP STARTS, LEAVES THE ICE, AND LANDS IN RELATION TO THE FIRST TWO POINTS.

 

Quote

- At the previous ISU congress, the question of increasing the age limit was raised. Next year there is a new congress, and the balance of power in ladies did not change. Is there a threat of change?

- The congress will be held in summer of 2020 in Thailand. It is not known whether such proposals will be made. Usually they are made in the winter if they are not urgent.

- And if they are made?

- They will discuss it. The people who proposed it will justify the need for changes. There are pros and cons to changing the minimum age. On the one hand, beautiful female skating and the like. On the other hand, it will not be as difficult as that of small nimble girls. We after all offer a product to the audience. Would they like to watch skating with more grace, but less complexity? One would need to find out. At the last congress the proposal arose spontaneously, no one was eager to discuss it so suddenly.

- What is your opinion? Are you ready to protect the existing rules?

- I do not really want to express an opinion and influence others, but there are doubts about the need for raising the age. And also, you need to think about why this topic has never been raised before. Tara Lipinski became the Olympic champion at 15. Then the age was slightly increased. Maybe someone just wants to reduce competition? I believe that, before making decisions, we must carefully weigh all the pros and cons. Especially when it comes to such decisions.

lol