General Skating Chat

[xeyra]

14 minutes ago, Xen said:

Hi Xeyra, aren't spins GOE values factorized by 0.5, unless I'm missing something? And steps are factorized at 0.7 of the GOEs?

 

Yes, you're right, with the current system they get factored...

 

But as we can see from your examples, the new system wouldn't work if it kept that factoring, so it'll have to invariably change... for triple jumps too! It's too soon to know, anyway. By June we'll know. 

[EisElle]

Re: new hypotetic goe factorization 

 

It's also possible they'll keep the different factorization for positive and negative goe on quads, so mistakes on quads will be punished more but a +5 won't make quads  (those with higher bv in particular) totally and utterly unreachable...

Also, tbh while I can see the sense of different goe factorization for different number of revolutions, I don't see why +3 on 4Lz should be much different from +3 on 4T. The difference in difficulty between 4T and 4Lz is already evalued in their different bv, to have positive goe linked to bv will only make the gap between different types of jumps bigger, regardless of their actual quality

 I thought that was NOT what ISU wanted...

*gets ready for major meltdown when the new rules will be out*  

[ICeleste]

I just rewatched ACI 2017 and I'm  at the fact that his LP scored less than 43 points higher than his SP there.. not to mention his LP TES was only 3 points higher than his SP TES... I'm pretty sure Yuzu holds some sort of record for the smallest points difference between the SP and the LP performed at the same competition, doesn't he? 

[liv]

I adore Tarakanova too. She's my absolute favourite of Eteri's girls (she's wild, and hmmm, maybe there is a young yuzu comparison somewhere there)...

[yuzupon]

Found this gem from reading soyouwanttowatchfs' post on tumblr:

 

Mama Tracy Wilson explaining UR.

 

The video is 10 years ago, she barely ages, too, apparently.

[Dara]

On 16.03.2018 at 8:59 AM, Xen said:

Well I've tested this around with a  hypo layout. It's a bit...scary. Full explanation of what was done:

- 7 jumping passes in 4 minutes, 4 in second half

- Assuming that GOE is tied to percent of BV, in which case each +1 GOE=10% of BV

- no reduction in spin or stsq requirements

 

Hi, I was away from the forum for a while so idk, maybe this was discussed here before, but I've just read interview of Lakernik in "World of Figure Skating" magazine (it's official magazine of RusFed). This is backnumber (December 2017) but still pretty recent one.

 

So he outlines changes that way:

- mens' and pairs FS will be 4 minutes - that's for sure, because this change was accepted by previous Congress back in 2014. His reasoning is this - mens' programs are so demanding, that last 30 seconds hardly add anything to the program, because skater can barely make through it. It's more tricky with pairs, they do fine, but it'd be weird to leave only pairs FS 4.5 min, when all others skate for 4 minutes.

- base values of quads AND triple axel will be reduced (he doesn't say by how many percent), and at the same time GOE range will be made wider. from -5 to +5. Skaters would be able to earn even more points for well executed jump than they do now. At the same time poorly executed one would be penalized more.

Lakernik says they expect that points for each jump will remain more or less in the same range, but GOE changes would induce including only jumps that are ready enough. Because including jump only for receiving high base value after fall would be pointless (he emphasized that audience doesn't like performances with multiple falls and doesn't care if it was fall on really hard element). He also says that their calculations assume that TES wouldn't change much when such changes would be applied, it only would become less by scores of that one jump that will be taken away from the program. He expects everyone to take away their easiest jump, so in general programs will remain as demanding as they are now.

- he was asked if it's possible that these changes will make programs quadless like in Vancouver, because skaters won't risk getting huge GOE deductions for quads and will rely on clean triples. Lakernik answered that in his opinion this won't happen because skaters found right way to tackle quads. Another point he made is that it's possible that for high, wide, fully-rotated and landed on one foot jump start GOE would be +2 rather than 0, so in that case GOE for fall on it would be -3 rather than -5. In that case 30% penalty of base value (direct quote: "you get about 10% penalty on every step, that's the way the scale is arranged") rather that 50% would make jump still quite worthy, so each fall is different. 

 

This leads me to idea that GOE coefficient on quads will be 1.0 as it is now. Let's say 4T base value would be 9.3. Total score for the element can range from 4.3 up to 14.3. Max is more that current 10.3+3=13.3 points. Full -5 is less than current 6.3. "-3 fall" would be the same. 

[Fresca]

On 11/03/2018 at 11:55 PM, meoima said:

And A thread on Yuzuru’s 1/2 lo combo and why it looks good

And 

and 

 

 

Yuzu does his 1/2 loop very prettily. He transitions in and out of it smoothly and has good body position throughout in his torso and arms as well as his legs. When he does it, it looks like a small barrel jump in jazz so his 1/2 loop combos look like a series of dance jumps across the ice.

 

 

On 13/03/2018 at 11:52 AM, cinemacoconut said:

Hey guys im jst wondering if yuzu can skate for another 4 years cuz the jr circuit for mens wasnt impressive. Like only gogolev seems a threat at this point. Wat do u guys think?? 

 

He can if he stays healthy and if the +5/-5 GOE scoring changes work as they should to reward quality, then I think he can win again in Beijing with just his 4S, 4T and 3A for a couple of reasons.

 

1) Yuzu's jumps are not being rewarded enough with the current +3/-3 GOE scoring range because of the quality of his jumps, his transitions in and out and his ability to execute jumps so they are part of the program/choreography. And yet, even if his 4S, 4T, 3A are not being rewarded enough with +3/-3 GOE scoring, nobody has managed to score higher than his SP or FS at NHK 2015 or GPF 2015 despite having more quads with more BV. With +5/-5 GOE scoring, the GOE gap between all the elements in his programs (not just the jumps; point 2 below expands on this) vs others should increase.

 

2) The philosophy of TCC has always been that good jumps start with good skating skills. They work on skating skills to be able to perform jumps better (edges, speed, landings, etc) and more efficiently. Because of this, Yuzu's 4S, 4T and 3A are in Plushenko's words "easy-peasy for him". He does them so efficiently that he can do them with high quality at 70% of the effort it takes others. It takes less energy for him to do the jumps which leaves more energy for him to perform the other elements in the program with high quality (spins, transition, step sequences, etc). The efficiency also lessens the probability of injury for him significantly. His good technique and good alignment in jumping minimizes the impact of the quads on his body and his efficiency means he can train these jumps without getting too tired which also minimizes injury. Training while tired/sick/fatigued is when injuries usually happen as your body is not capable of executing the jumps properly. If he continues working on 4S, 4T, and 3A with the TCC coaches, he could probably get them even more efficient which means he can work on more difficult transitions and combos with those 3 jumps to keep him entertained (4-4, 4-1-4, 3A-4??? )

 

3) Artistry develops with age. If he decides to continue to Beijing, with his mastery of 4S, 4T, and 3A, he can use them to build even more artistically complex programs. The more life experiences you have and the more you understand yourself, then the more characters you can play, the more pieces of you music you can connect to, and the more you are able to express difficult human themes or emotions because you have lived them in some way. Yuzu has already lived a lot of life. He has lived even more these last few months with his injury, winning the Olympics and now focusing on rehabilitation. I'm excited to see what new dimensions of himself he will bring to his skating next season and beyond.

[cinemacoconut]

On 2018. 3. 15. at 2:51 PM, wingman said:

 

I'm not sure that he moves his goal posts. (We fans certainly moving them in our fantasies). I think he has always been super clear in interviews date way back (eg: Kenji no heya): Sochi, PC, 4A. He had that ideal skate (GPF 15). So except for 4A, I think he has had it all when it comes to FS.

 

In one interview he said that there's no meaning if the 4A is not landed in competition. So, assuming that he succeeds the 4A, I'm sure that he would put it in. An ideal script for us would be: he starts the 4A at Skate Canada, succeeds but messes up other parts, ended up coming 2nd (again), get all worked up, and delivers killer performances for the rest of the competition.

 

It's clear that he has other passions as well: in a couple of interviews he said he wants to try other sports after FS (archery etc). He could go to the summer olympic as an archer... (OMG that would be sooo cool).

 

But I can totally imagining him doing ice shows for a long time (and put together meaningful, moving pieces).

 

 

 

Why archery of all sports? I thght soccer or baseball might suit him more. Hes good at using his lower body haha. Can he go to ice dancing after he retires lol....

 

[cinemacoconut]

Why hasnt yuzu learned ballet yet? It would really help him!! And it would suit him. I kind of wish yuzu took up ballet jst so i can see him doing ballet off ice... 

[cinemacoconut]

On 2018. 3. 16. at 4:05 AM, Danibellerika said:

Is there anyone better? I mean, I think Boyang's lutz is great, but the Wow factor with Yuzu for me remains how beautiful he looks midair combining great height, flow, speed in and out of the jumps, etc for ALL of his jumps. Not to mention the jump setup where I only know they are coming because I know his choreography. Leg wraps are not a part of his vocabulary.  I've never seen anything like it and I don't know if I'll ever see anything like it again. The effortlessness still takes my breath away all of these years later. 

 

If Yuzu wasn't jumping right, they would look ugly. There is nothing ugly at all about his perfectly executed jumps.

 

Did anybody else get +3 on their quads at the Olys btw? 

 

 

 

His jumps are like art. The quads look and feel as light as a feather coming out. Its like a swan. Its soooo beautiful. The height and distance of his quads are dynamic but the flow coming out is like water, a river flow. In other words, his jumps are poetic. Only yuzu can make jumps poetic.

[wpisces]

On 13/3/2018 at 7:46 PM, cinemacoconut said:

 

 

But didnt nathan wnt to go to med school? He cnt b serious about Olympic gold in beijing becuz med school timetable is very tough. 

 

And boyang yes i admit but jst doesnt have the charisma and artistry of yuzu and never will.

 

Shoma i think maybe. But hes a bit lacking in the height department which affects the viewers perception. FS is a sport where height and beauty does matter. 

 

 

I disagree. I used to think Boyang doesn't have much charisma until I watched his recent performances ( 4CC, Olympics,...). Also, I was  quite surprised hearing him express his thoughts about his Olympics performances and his future plan. He spoke in a very mature way. He may not be as ambitious as Yuzuru but he's definitely aware of everything in a clever way like Yuzuru. Personally, Boyang is much more special and charismatic than Shoma in both competition and real life. You should watch his interviews to understand him more and I bet you will change your mind about him. 

[cinemacoconut]

2 minutes ago, wpisces said:

I disagree. I used to think Boyang doesn't have much charisma until I watched his recent performances ( 4CC, Olympics,...). Also, I was  quite surprised hearing him express his thoughts about his Olympics performances and his future plan. He spoke in a very mature way. He may not be as ambitious as Yuzuru but he's definitely aware of everything in a clever way like Yuzuru. Personally, Boyang is much more special and charismatic than Shoma in both competition and real life. You should watch his interviews to understand him more and I bet you will change your mind about him. 

 

 

What I meant by charisma was mostly the Exterior beauty that yuzu has. Not saying other skaters are ugly, but its that Yuzu is exceptionally handsome. I knw a lot of korean and japanese celebrities and Ive never seen a more elegantly handsome male than Yuzu even compared to actors and models and idols. Its my preference I knw, but a lot of other korean girls share my view online amongst his fans. Hes jst very good looking for an athlete. Thats what I meant by charisma. Yuzu is jst born with it. And in figure skating looks do matter to a degree. And yuzu has exterior charisma and also artistry. 

[kaeryth]

9 hours ago, cinemacoconut said:

 

Why archery of all sports? I thght soccer or baseball might suit him more. Hes good at using his lower body haha. Can he go to ice dancing after he retires lol....

 

 

He's expressed before that he wants to try Japanese archery or Kyudo

Quote

I would like to try archery or kyudou (Japanese archery). I think the amount of concentration, mentality, and the the feeling of having to focus on one point on the target would be a very good learning experience. There is the letter 弓 (bow) in the 弦 of my name. That is one of the sports I would really like to try personally.

 

----

 

9 hours ago, cinemacoconut said:

Why hasnt yuzu learned ballet yet? It would really help him!! And it would suit him. I kind of wish yuzu took up ballet jst so i can see him doing ballet off ice... 

 

He does! This was in a 2012 interview

Quote

I do on-ice training with Brian Orser and Tracy Wilson, and off-ice training with my ballet instructor. I skate for three to four hours every day and take ballet lessons for an hour to an hour and a half. I’m really enjoying them and working hard. I think training in Canada will improve my skating a lot.

 

[kaeryth]

15 hours ago, Dara said:

 

Hi, I was away from the forum for a while so idk, maybe this was discussed here before, but I've just read interview of Lakernik in "World of Figure Skating" magazine (it's official magazine of RusFed). This is backnumber (December 2017) but still pretty recent one.

 

So he outlines changes that way:

- mens' and pairs FS will be 4 minutes - that's for sure, because this change was accepted by previous Congress back in 2014. His reasoning is this - mens' programs are so demanding, that last 30 seconds hardly add anything to the program, because skater can barely make through it. It's more tricky with pairs, they do fine, but it'd be weird to leave only pairs FS 4.5 min, when all others skate for 4 minutes.

- base values of quads AND triple axel will be reduced (he doesn't say by how many percent), and at the same time GOE range will be made wider. from -5 to +5. Skaters would be able to earn even more points for well executed jump than they do now. At the same time poorly executed one would be penalized more.

Lakernik says they expect that points for each jump will remain more or less in the same range, but GOE changes would induce including only jumps that are ready enough. Because including jump only for receiving high base value after fall would be pointless (he emphasized that audience doesn't like performances with multiple falls and doesn't care if it was fall on really hard element). He also says that their calculations assume that TES wouldn't change much when such changes would be applied, it only would become less by scores of that one jump that will be taken away from the program. He expects everyone to take away their easiest jump, so in general programs will remain as demanding as they are now.

- he was asked if it's possible that these changes will make programs quadless like in Vancouver, because skaters won't risk getting huge GOE deductions for quads and will rely on clean triples. Lakernik answered that in his opinion this won't happen because skaters found right way to tackle quads. Another point he made is that it's possible that for high, wide, fully-rotated and landed on one foot jump start GOE would be +2 rather than 0, so in that case GOE for fall on it would be -3 rather than -5. In that case 30% penalty of base value (direct quote: "you get about 10% penalty on every step, that's the way the scale is arranged") rather that 50% would make jump still quite worthy, so each fall is different. 

 

This leads me to idea that GOE coefficient on quads will be 1.0 as it is now. Let's say 4T base value would be 9.3. Total score for the element can range from 4.3 up to 14.3. Max is more that current 10.3+3=13.3 points. Full -5 is less than current 6.3. "-3 fall" would be the same. 

 

Thank you for the info!!! Once again, it sound good in theory but it's the application of rules by the same judges that I don't have any high hopes for.

[xeyra]

If a high, wide, fully-rotated and landed on one foot jump is in itself to be marked as +2... what will happen to the 0 and +1 GOE and how much will one need to do to earn +3-+5? They're basically moving the ballpark to +2 instead of 0... so +2 will be a normal jump? Will +3 to +5 require creative entry/exit/steps/rippon/etc?