General Skating Chat

[EisElle]

31 minutes ago, kelly said:

I found this video about quints  Also US media being US media and crediting Nathan as being the one to inspire others to do quads 

 

 

the video is quite interesting tho it doesn't contains anything new (and I think I've already seen some of the bits or read some interviews from the Delaware university professor and the other lady talking about optimization of rotational speed and how speed increases more if they wear those weights/gloves). Of course it's US video so they are going to use the world saviour a US skater and hype him a little bit more (and I've just read another article about Nathan's "secret weapon". Guess which one? His ballet training It was an exceptionally humorous read because of the stark contrast between what was written and reality Like, are we even watching the same programs?).

Nathan happens to be one also of the male skaters who can rotate faster, so it makes sense in a talk about quints, but it makes me chuckle that they couldn't find better landed jumps. Nathan has done some smooth landings on both combos and solo jumps, why the heck did they pick those ugly landings that make me cringe thinking about the jolt of his joints? (oh wait, I know why: they have no idea those are not like a proper landing is supposed to look)

(and btw it is just me or the jr skater, Dihn, had a very weird air position in the video? It looked asymmetric, I hope he can fix it or his quads won't go that far)

[fireovertheice]

Hi all!

Here you are another video from the Figure Skating Comparison Team: this time the focus is on the steps/movements before the solo jumps in top 7 men's SP (including later comps and also observations on Oly TE).

Observe and comment, as you wish. And also, please, share if you can/ want ( )

 

[xeyra]

Updated BVs with some estimated TES, assuming past and potential TES and no pops.

I think these layouts are going to be the ones used though some may suffer changes, like Nathan's (who knows what he'll bring on the day) and Yuzu's, if he brings back a 4Lo.

 

SKATER	SP BV	LAYOUT	EST TES	FS BV	LAYOUT	EST TES
HANYU	49.51	4S // 3A 4T3T	60-64	97.99 103.23 103.43	4S 4T 3F // 4S3T 4T1Lo3S 3A2T 3Lo 3Lz 4Lo 4T 3F // 4S3T 4T1Lo3S 3A2T 3A 3Lz 4Lo 4S 3F // 4S3T 4T1Lo3S 3A2T 3A 3Lz	118-122 122-128 122-128
CHEN	50.88 54.38	4F3T // 4T 3A 4Lz3T // 4F 3A	58-64 58-67	114.81	4Lz 4F3T 4F // 4T 4T2T 4S 3A 3F1Lo3S	115-130
UNO	51.31	4F // 4T3T 3A	58-64	109.59	4Lo 4F 3Lo // 3A 4T2T 4T 3A1Lo3F 3S3T	120-126
JIN	51.15 51.33	4Lz3T 4T // 3A 4Lz3T 3A // 4T	58-60	103.70	4Lz 4S 3A1Lo3S // 4T2T 4T 3A 3Lz3T 3F	115-120
FERNANDEZ	47.75	4T3T 4S // 3A	58-60	95.13	4T 4S3T 3A2T // 4S 3Lo 3A 3Lz 3F1Lo3S	118+
CHAN	43.55	4T3T 3Lz // 3A	54	86.35	4T3T 4T 3A1Lo3S // 3A 3Lo2T 3Lz 3F	100-106
ZHOU	53.15	4Lz3T 4F // 3A	58-62	115.70	4Lz3T 4F 4S // 4Lz 4T 3A, 3A2T 3Lz1Lo3F	115-125
KOLYADA	51.15	4Lz 4T3T // 3A	58-60	95.81	4Lz 4T3T 3A2T // 4T 3A 3Lz1Lo3S 3Lo 2A	110-115

[yuzupon]

@xeyra

Wasn't the point of having 4Lo is so that Zu could do 2 3As?

[xeyra]

10 minutes ago, yuzupon said:

@xeyra

Wasn't the point of having 4Lo is so that Zu could do 2 3As?

 

Shit, I forgot to actually change the 3Lo into a 3A. The BVs already correspond to two 3As, I just didn't write it up. 

[yuzuangel]

On 2/11/2018 at 5:41 AM, kelly said:

I found this video about quints  Also US media being US media and crediting Nathan as being the one to inspire others to do quads 

 

 

whoa they filmed that at the rink i go to

no wonder it was closed on one of the days for a "commercial screening"

[xeyra]

On 27/11/2017 at 4:00 PM, xeyra said:

BEST ELEMENTS SEASON 2017-2018 - updated Feb 19

Men, Ladies and Pairs

 

MAX GOE HISTORY - updated Feb 19

Men and Ladies

 

TOP 10 SCORES, PCS, TES AND GOE - updated Feb 19

Men and Ladies

 

Last Update: 19th February 2018

 

I have updated these spreadsheets post-Olympics.

 

From the Men's Best Elements of the Season table:

• Nathan's 4Lz3T from Skate America remains the highest scored element of the season. Nathan also managed to sneak in into the pantheon of great step sequences by scoring a 2.10 GOE at GPF in his SP. 
• Boyang's 4Lz from 4CC is the highest scored single quad jump. That one's a beauty. 
• Yuzuru managed to get max GOE this season in pretty much every type of element, from jumps (4S/4T/3A) to spins (CSSp) to sequences (StSq4 and ChSq1). Talk about a balanced skater.
• Misha's choreographic sequence was universally loved by the judges, considering it reached max GOE (2.10) in 4 out of 5 competitions.

From Max GOE History:

• Yuzuru managed to increase his count even more despite only having 3 competitions. To note, his SP 3A this season received unanimous +3 GOE across the board. I think one of my most anticipated things about Yuzu's return to competition, whenever it'll happen, is to see how his 3A will be scored in the -5/+5 era... 

Top 10s:

• Nathan now holds the highest TES of a FS but only has one FS score in the top 10 because Yuzu's Olympics FS score edged his 4CC one out. 
• Yuzuru dominates SP like a boss. He now holds 6 out of 10 best scores in that segment, including the first four. If only LGC had cooperated better, we could have had more.
• In addition to Yuzuru, only Javi AND Boyang now have the honor of crossing 60 TES in the SP.
• Yuzuru has almost as many appearances in these Top 10s as all the others combined (38 vs 42). 

[Xen]

8 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

I have updated these spreadsheets post-Olympics.

 

From the Men's Best Elements of the Season table:

• Nathan's 4Lz3T from Skate America remains the highest scored element of the season. Nathan also managed to sneak in into the pantheon of great step sequences by scoring a 2.10 GOE at GPF in his SP. 
• Boyang's 4Lz from from 4CC is the highest scored single quad jump. That one's a beauty. 
• Yuzuru managed to get max GOE this season in pretty much every type of element, from jumps (4S/4T/3A) to spins (CSSp) to sequences (StSq4 and ChSq1). Talk about a balanced skater.
• Misha's choreographic sequence was universally loved by the judges, considering it reached max GOE (2.10) in 4 out of 5 competitions.

From Max GOE History:

• Yuzuru managed to increase his count even more despite only having 3 competitions. To note, his SP 3A this season received unanimous +3 GOE across the board. I think one of my most anticipated things about Yuzu's return to competition, whenever it'll happen, is to see how his 3A will be scored in the -5/+5 era... 

Top 10s:

• Nathan now holds the highest TES of a FS but only has one FS score in the top 10 now because Yuzu's Olympics FS score edged his 4CC one out. 
• Yuzuru dominates SP like a boss. He now holds 6 out of 10 best scores in that segment, including the first four. If only LGC had cooperated better, we could have had more.
• In addition to Yuzuru, only Javi AND Boyang now have the honor of crossing 60 TES in the SP.
• Yuzuru has almost as many appearances in these Top 10s as all the others combined (38 vs 42). 

And some say he doesn't dominate....

[Altie]

Is it the right thread to post this ? Some VERY questionable scoring by the USA and Chinese judges. And an admirable japanese judge.

 

 

It's really disturbing. There's always some national bias, but here is just completely nuts ? I mean, putting Yuzu in FIFTH place ? Really ? Giving a world record score to Chen, and 25 points higher than Yuzu ??? Putting Vincent Zhou ahead of Yuzu ??? That's just open cheating !

 

I really hope there will be some investigation. It's as bad a cheating than doping in other sports.

[fireovertheice]

So, about the top men performances at this Oly: what are your thoughts seing them more in details, starting from SP? And in particular about Yuzu's one? I have just rewatched it in different videos and I have to say that it was really magical! An other dream performance, so beautiful and certainly Olympics worth .

 

Comparing with his performance at ACI here the judges gave him lower GOE for the 4S (I would have gave him +3 as ACI, while at the end he received 2.71) and also for the first 2 sets of spins (1.10 and 1.50 at ACI vs. 1.00 and 1.43 at Oly: but to me they were as good as the ACI ones), while they gave him something more for the StSq, rightly lv4 (1.96 at ACI vs. 2.10 - the max. - at Oly).

I agree for a slightly lower GOE on the combo and also listening to Dolfini for the Lv3 for the last spin. Ice coverage and speed were good as usual (maybe just some parts a little slower tha ACI?).

 

The PCS at the end were quite similar: 48.55 at ACI vs. 48.50 at Oly. In the first case there were only nine 10.00s, while in the second they were ten.

However, while at Oly he had something more for SS (9.71) and PE (9.86 ), really I cannot understand how two judges gave him 8.75 (J7 = RYAN of Australia, who gave 9.00 to Javi and Shoma, 9.75 to Patrick, and 8.75 to Nathan...!) and 9.00 (J1= our dear DELFA of Spain, who gave 9.50 in TR to Javi..ahem) for TR: the first didn't count at the end, but the second yes, resulting in the total of 9.43 for TR. And we all know how much more he does in this compartment in comparison to the others... Also for IN and CO I would have gave him a little more, as at ACI.

 

At the end I would have give him: +0.29 for 4S; at least a +0.20 for the first two spins; + 0.25 for TR and + 0.10 at least for IN and CO  = tot. 111.68 + 0.84 > 112.52; so a not so bad judging, thinking also to his skating order (also if this should not count, but we know...).

So, it was mostly the level of the last spin - 0.50 missing for a new world record, that IMO after that skate he was maybe expecting, judging from his reaction in K&C (also if Brian prepared him not to have it in change for gold) .

 

What do you think about it? And What are your opinion on the SP of Javi, Shoma and Boyang, and in a different way because of the bad day/skate, of Nathan? I don't want to make any polemic or what else, or bash any of those beautiful skaters, but just to discuss friendly among us about some "details" that here didn't matter that much (luckily), but that could be still relevant in a general perspective.

 

 

 

[Eclair]

On 25.12.2017 at 11:22 AM, Xen said:

Hi guys, just a general question. When seeing the ladies protocols, maybe it's just me, but it feels like ladies generally receive less points in avg PCs scores (individual components, not the total score) than their male counterparts, even amongst those who scored in the top 6 at Helsinki. I could be wrong in my impressions, but if I'm not, is there a reason why? I thought skating skills were just skating skills, and would have expected some higher numbers there from the top 6 at least. For Co/PE/IN, kind of the same question, even though in general, don't ladies tend to excel at that more than the men?

TSL posted a video with the (I think) tech coach from TCC. May personal recommendation: DON'T WATCH. 

I had hoped for more technical stuff and new insights, but I think you are all pretty knowledgable in Technical stuff. They didn't say anything gross or totally insulting, so no worries, but my guess is, that you all won't enjoy it... just a small warning.  will save 2h of your life..

[Xen]

10 hours ago, Altie said:

Is it the right thread to post this ? Some VERY questionable scoring by the USA and Chinese judges. And an admirable japanese judge.

 

 

It's really disturbing. There's always some national bias, but here is just completely nuts ? I mean, putting Yuzu in FIFTH place ? Really ? Giving a world record score to Chen, and 25 points higher than Yuzu ??? Putting Vincent Zhou ahead of Yuzu ??? That's just open cheating !

 

I really hope there will be some investigation. It's as bad a cheating than doping in other sports.

I heard the CHN judge is under investigation, while US judge is not? Guess someone wants a pewter medal? And the order from the CHN was flipped on Boyang and Nate, but most of the others are right (and even gave Vincent higher placements).  

 

@fireovertheice: I honestly don't want to watch Nate's programs again, so for Nate I'll just go based on my impressions from watching him. 

My opinion is that Yuzu deserved to have broken his WR in the SP, again. This was a better SP than the ACI one, and the points in TES should be fairly similar, with a higher PCS here. I would have been more than happy to toss him a 49 at least (maybe with tears in my eyes I would have given him a 50), because it was the best SP that night. Of course, given how things are, I'd likely end up under investigation (because I'd be the CHN judge!) for giving 10's.

 

Personally, I think Nate received higher PCS than his programs merited, especially in the long. I initially thought he only got 82.77 PCS in the long, and thought that sounded about right (turns out I was wrong).

 

Boyang I thought was a bit underscored in the PCS department. Despite his error, I would have been okay with giving him about a 2 points higher in PCS in the long, this time he really did try to sell the long. 

 

I'm still in shock at the PCS they gave to Patrick- only about 90 in the long? Error or not, I thought he would have been around 94. 

 

 

[Xen]

@fireovertheice: Okay, I've managed to force myself to rewatch Nathan's LP from fancam, and went even better-I grabbed my mother (who actually did practice ballet) to sit down and watch with me and discuss. 

 

To begin my discussion, I would prefer that people actually go check out the wikipedia entries on both the story of Mao's Last Dancer (movie and book), and the entry on Li Cunxin, the dancer. To preface my analysis and explain my conclusion, I might need to explain a bit about the 1950's and the cultural revolution. If you want to skip the political/history stuff, skip to the end as I'll do the backstory in spoiler tags. 

Spoiler

 I'm not sure if Nathan's parents were children born during the 50's, and if they've ever experienced the cultural revolution. My family did. It is, rightly so, a period in modern chinese history that many Chinese today said, delayed China's development by 20 years, if not more. It was a period where political ideology overthrew tradition, overthrew history, overthrew ethics. Whatever Chinese culture historically valued, pretty much got shredded and tossed to the winds. Intellectuals were considered corrupting morals, so schools were shut down, teachers were paraded in the streets as traitors to the cause. The larger cities were less affected, but in the smaller towns and countryside where most people resided that was the norm. From stories I hear from my family members who lived through that, there were neighbors betraying neighbors, friendships that broke up under the scrutiny of public shame, even families that were broken when someone outed another as a morally corrupt intellectual. It was a time where everyone was poor, starving, and trust was a premium. 

 

To me, the music cuts and the story of Mao's last dancer itself, is a story of hope and triumph against despair. Where for the dancer in the story, ballet was transformative, and a savior against the dark circumstances of his life. That's the overarching theme I get from the music. For Nathan's performance, my question for him would be, "Is figure skating for you, what ballet was for this protagonist?" Or even, "Can you comprehend and express what ballet was for this person?" And in reply to that, no, in that performance, I don't think Nathan showed that he understood the music, nor the program, and least of all the idea that ballet was the lone hope for that dancer. 

 

When watching with my mother, she only liked that one lone 4 Salchow that he landed. The rest she said, he looked like he'd fall at any time. About 30 seconds in she even said, "This guy can't possibly have gotten on the podium." She also commented that his body is too stiff, and voiced absolute surprise that he ever did ballet. Then flat out said, "Must not have been a good dancer then."

 

Both of us thought there was a disconnect with the music-she thought the choreography wasn't good. According to her, he kept the same pace, the same mood regardless of how the music changed. When the music is soft and expansive, he didn't relax nor extend himself to match the softness. This is in great contrast to skaters like Yagudin, Plushenko, whose movements (even if not pretty) were in sync with the mood of the music-they engage and pull you in for the ride. When the music hits a climax pace, Nathan's pace didn't change. In her words, "The music is pushing you to a climax, and your mood does hit the climax, but then you watch him and the mood deflates like a popped balloon and you want to ask him why are you so nonchalant."  As for the soft, melodic sections, his movements didn't match that- pity for the lone spread eagle, there were a couple places where an ina bauer, inside spread eagle which is less taxing, or a spiral would have done wonders. But that might tire him out for the jumps right? But the jumps themselves, also had times where they were discordant with the music, especially during the softer sections as his jumps do not have good flow. Never mind the soft knees and arms needed. 

 

Personally, if it had to be skated at this Olys cycle, I think the program may have been more fitting for Yuzu, Jason, Boyang even. I don't think Nathan at this time in his life, views skating the way the dancer viewed ballet to express the music to the full. I'll just end with this line my mom gave, as her general impression of the piece: 

"There are 2 types of ballet dancers. First type of dancer is someone who really likes it, and even when they are having a bad day, that passion comes through and makes up for any deficiencies in their technique that day. The Second type of dancer is someone who picked up ballet for various reasons, whether just following someone's footsteps, or because it pays the bills or something, when they are careful and focusing they can do well, but when they have an off day there's nothing there. He (Nathan) seems to be having an off day, and he is the second type of dancer." 

 

So scoring wise:

-SS, TR: 8.25

-IN, PE, CO: 7.75, 8.0, 8.0

Total: 40.25, aka 80.5 for the LP PCS. Fair enough? 

 

[yuzuangel]

 

ISU should investigate by Lorrie Parker and Weiguang Chen (AFAIK they are only investigating the Chinese judge?) but I can't help but think that if not for the Chinese judge, Boyang would be scored even lower than he deserves, whereas due to USFSA influence, American skaters are overscored across the board sometimes (and most extravagantly by the American judge, although maybe in comparison it stands out less).

[Eclair]

32 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

 

ISU should investigate by Lorrie Parker and Weiguang Chen (AFAIK they are only investigating the Chinese judge?) but I can't help but think that if not for the Chinese judge, Boyang would be scored even lower than he deserves, whereas due to USFSA influence, American skaters are overscored across the board sometimes (and most extravagantly by the American judge, although maybe in comparison it stands out less).

OMG if Boyang looses his 4th place finish because of that  

 

I've often thought, that the way the CHN judges score Boyang shows, how they have no clue how the system works. They just extremely overscore. While the smart judges know, that they have to over score a little in every GOE and PCS category, so that it won't be too glaring, won't generate the feeling of negativity in other judges, and maybe won't even get deleted...