General Skating Chat

[Xen]

1 hour ago, LadyLou said:

Sorry for the messy post, some snippets of what's been discussed in the last podcast by Ambesi and Dolfini. If it doesn't make a lot of sense it's because it's late and I'm a bit sleepy

 

Update about the question of GOE on falls and falls on jumps getting -2 and -1 instead of -3 (it was discussed in the Men GPF thread):

according to Max&Angelo, the positive features (positive goe for bullets like e.g. difficult entry, height/distance and such) shouldn't be counted, so a fall should get -3 across the board whatever happens before. As I've said in the Men's GPF thread, I don't remeber seeing the exact words "for a fall final goe must be -3" in the rulebook, while I do remember seeing a very explicit "for elements not meeting the requirements in the SP final goe must be -3" (for example solo jump not preceded by choreographic element). But I haven't read the whole handbook again, so maybe I have just missed that part, and I trust Max&Angelo on tech questions, so if that's their take I'll just accept that my half-attempt to justify the judges that gave -2 and -1 has no basis in the rules (hey, I was just trying to be good and patient with judges for once )

Angelo added that maybe a -2 could be acceptable if it's a fall on the 2nd or 3rd jump of a combo that had for example a good first jump, then it might happen.

(some judges gave Shoma's fall on 3A a couple -2 and a -1. Mika on his 4Lz got two -2. While Yuzuru got three -2 on his 3T fall of his jump combo 4T3T in his COR SP).

 

Also, about the SP solo jump preceded by choreografic element , they think the call should be on the tech panel, and I agree. It would be a sensible change of rules, because it's not about "quality of execution" but about a technical requirement, like edge of a lutz/flip or number of revolutions, and it wouldn't be a dramatic change, nor it would be hard to apply at all. Although sometimes tech panels themselves can make some very questionable calls, it's likely we could see the most neglected rule in Men's skating finally applied with a certain degree of consistency within the same competition (I don't dare to hope it could be applied consistently in different competitions )

 

And they thought there were a lot of borderline UR from both Nathan and Shoma in GPF that weren't called

 

Also, Max would pick Nathan over Shoma on SS... and Angelo said, yes yes, it’s legitimate. Now I’d really like to know more about this  I though Shoma was still better, on SS (and TR) that he displays in his competitive programs (tho I think Nathan has gorgeous SS in his EX) and people keep saying that Shoma's SS is on par with Patrick's, so....

Angelo also said Nathan has some interesting choreo and is working on that. At the moment he’s maybe the most complete US skater against those who lacks quads (like Rippon and Brown) and skaters with quads but very bad in components (Zhou, I guess Aaron too). Still his TR score was way too high for what he did.

 

And Max was very angry with people questioning their answers about GOE on falls (one ask cited "The skating protocol" as source saying positive bullets should be counted).

And Angelo said then Hanyu would get at worst 0 all the time. And Max said: there’s your proof.

(can’t disagree with that, if it were true that positive goe must count then Yuzu shouldn’t ever ever ever get a -3 on his falls. Most of the time they are also so well-timed to the music, they should count as a positive feature, creative exit. But they get -3, so...)

 

About Yuzu, they say Yuzuru will go to Olys (unless he won’t be able to skate there because injured), and Max added: what you read on forums, from 0 to 10, it counts -15 

Max added that to say Murakami, Mura, Tanaka deserve Olys more than Hanyu because they go to Nationals is nuts (this is me trying to adapt what he said: “bestialità”, which pretty much means "out of this world, crazy, idiotic, totally insane. Needs to be sent to the asylum asap". I don’t think “bestiality” really translates the word, my dictionary gives me not so apt translations...)

Max adds: here we should talk about freedom of speech, too. Don’t read certain forum...

and then he goes on ranting for a while

Sadly, he's right. I’ve read some crazy stuff in the other place about Yuzu’s oly qualification being in question, I don’t know if they enjoy spreading panic or are just idiots. I read that thread a bit bemused, because while I wanted to laugh, it was so weird to read people discuss at length of what would be a “bestialità”

 

BUT!!!!!! Max &Angelo are worried about Yuzu's recovery because ankle injuries are never easy and after sustaining an injury there is higher chance of re-injuring the ankle  (iirc Max said he has first-hand experience, he injured his ankle several times and eventually he broke it but Yuzu already had ankle problems in Nice and then iirc at 2013 Worlds too, but he kinda managed to skate all this years so I believe he can avoid reinjurying himself, if he's careful and doesn't rush with his recovery)

They hope that with the help of the best team Yuzuru will be in good shape for Olys. They don't mention the chance of Yuzu going to 4CC, they just worry about his physical recovery in time for Olys.

I think the idea of 4CC has never crossed their minds... btw I think they might be against because Yuzu might risk re-injuring himself at 4CC or strain his ankle so close to the only competition that truly matters (this is what I think that they might think, tho)...and apparently they have more faith than us in Yuzu's mental state after 4 months without competing

 

Also, Vanessa James injured her shoulder but apparently not a serious injury, J/M will just miss Nats, but will fight for a medal at Euros and possibly they might have even a chance for an oly medal.

 

 

uh....Shoma SS is better than Nathan SS,  look at the knees. I would like to see the logic too, especially if the real issue is just choreography. 

 

Wonder how that other place feels being called out like that....XD may I snicker in a corner?

[guitarist]

21 minutes ago, meoima said:

(1) Most quads that Nathan and Shoma did at GPF were not just borderline, they were outright UR

(2) SS: Shoma >>>> Nathan, TR: both of them weak

(3) Nathan + "gorgeous SS" = incomprehensible

(4) Saying Shoma's SS = Patrick's is an insult. Patrick uses like half of the crossovers Shoma does.

Agreed.

 

But to me, the worst is everytime anyone says they've got musicality. I just want to bang my head against the wall when I hear that. Shoma has terrible rhythm, none of his arm movements are matched to the music (to say nothing of his non-stop crossovers... errr.. I meant "footwork"). I think Nathan would be more musical if he weren't focusing on the technical elements so much, but alas... 

[EisElle]

Well no one has ever said Nathan's ss are gorgeous  (well, besides me, but I was comparing what he does in his fs with what he does in ex, tho I reckon those are not really gorgeous SS per se. Still, he looks more fluid than when all his focus is on jumps. And he isn't exactly a skater with the worst ss out there. But ok, I take back the adjective, I used it a bit carelessly). And Max &angelo have  never said shoma's ss are like patrick's, they have always been very vocal (max in particular) about Patrick needing 110 if Shoma is scored 90. But people like Takahashi said so, no later than yesterday, and he's not the first person I hear (or read) saying something like this. This doesn't mean I agree 

Please before feeling outraged consider this is my account of what I've heard, translated by me, so no 100% accuracy of what I've reported. 

ETA: about the Nathan vs Shoma,they were answering a question about Nathan's and Mika's SS, in particular speed end edges. then somehow Shoma got in the mix, but it might be they had in mind only a particular performance or a particular voice of skating skills.

And aside that blog that was mentioned in one of the questions they received, Max has only grumbled in general about forums, Twitter, Facebook and some so called fs experts  (no name tho). The reason why I think the rant might be also against some comments in the other place too is because there is a specific thread there and reading it it looks like Yuzuru would be out of Olys for sure if he isn't recovered by JNats. Idk if similar speculations have been made somewhere else

ETA 2 correction: actually the comparison was mika and Shoma on posture and edges, the bit about Nathan was about a question on  pcs being linked to tes and his score on TR, so they started talking about all his components 

[Xen]

52 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

Well no one has ever said Nathan's ss are gorgeousl  (well, besides me, but I was comparing what he does in his fs with what he does in ex, tho I reckon those are not really gorgeous SS per se. Still, he looks more fluid than when all his focus is on jumps. And he isn't exactly a skater with the worst ss out there. But ok, I take back the adjective, I used it a bit carelessly). And Max &angelo have  never said shoma's ss are like patrick's, they have always been very vocal (max in particular) about Patrick needing 110 if Shoma is scored 90. But people like Takahashi said so, no later than yesterday, and he's not the first person I hear (or read) saying something like this. This doesn't mean I agree 

Please before feeling outraged consider this is my account of what I've heard, translated by me, so no 100% accuracy of what I've reported. 

ETA: about the Nathan vs Shoma,they were answering a question about Nathan's and Mika's SS, in particular speed end edges. then somehow Shoma got in the mix, but it might be they had in mind only a particular performance or a particular voice of skating skills.

And aside that blog that was mentioned in one of the questions they received, Max has only grumbled in general about forums, Twitter, Facebook and some so called fs experts  (no name tho). The reason why I think the rant might be also against some comments in the other place too is because there is a specific thread there and reading it it looks like Yuzuru would be out of Olys for sure if he isn't recovered by JNats. Idk if similar speculations have been made somewhere else

ETA 2 correction: actually the comparison was mika and Shoma on posture and edges, the bit about Nathan was about a question on  pcs being linked to tes and his score on TR, so they started talking about all his components 

Thanks for the clarification, Max is making me want to pick up Italian. Mika SS is probably level with Shoma and Nate, if his gpf ex is any indication (loved it btw, a very different side I would want to see more of).

 

That thread eh....I exited Ninja mode to comment, but knowing.how sarcasm.is taken there, I am waiting for my infraction. 

[xeyra]

8 hours ago, Xen said:

That thread eh....I exited Ninja mode to comment, but knowing.how sarcasm.is taken there, I am waiting for my infraction. 

 

That troll is having the time of their life, for sure, but they're just going in circles about something they don't believe will happen anyway. They're sure praying for it, though!

[Murieleirum]

By the way, you guys missed it but in the last podcast before Christmas, Max and Angelo said that Shoma's crossovers are... kinda ugly  (they said especially forward crossovers)

Makes me laugh at the pages and pages we wrote regarding 'high quality crossovers'... 

[kaeryth]

RE: Shoma vs Nathan (SS, TR... crossovers).. I still think that Shoma has an edge on SS, they're both poor on transitions, and both use their upper body to hide their 2-footed skating. The difference this time, is their programs. Nathan's SP is choreographed really well that it highlights his strengths and hides his weaknesses - the program itself is fun and fresh. With the FP they both suck . Ok, maybe not suck but the potential I saw from Nathan's free at the start of the season has really deteriorated what with him and his team's strategy of changing the jump layout and just letting the choreography go. Shoma's FP... there's a period in that free where you know he's just killing time and waiting for the second half.

 

[Xen]

Hi guys, just a general question. When seeing the ladies protocols, maybe it's just me, but it feels like ladies generally receive less points in avg PCs scores (individual components, not the total score) than their male counterparts, even amongst those who scored in the top 6 at Helsinki. I could be wrong in my impressions, but if I'm not, is there a reason why? I thought skating skills were just skating skills, and would have expected some higher numbers there from the top 6 at least. For Co/PE/IN, kind of the same question, even though in general, don't ladies tend to excel at that more than the men?

[Neenah]

It seems like Shoma is going back to last season's layout 

 

http://shoma-uno.tumblr.com/post/168937337372/shoma-reveals-his-new-layout-for-the-olympic-free

[axelsandwich]

 

39 minutes ago, Neenah said:

It seems like Shoma is going back to last season's layout 

 

http://shoma-uno.tumblr.com/post/168937337372/shoma-reveals-his-new-layout-for-the-olympic-free

Just said this on Twitter but this was a good move and honestly is the state in which he's the most dangerous. Unlike Yuzu, I totally expect Shoma to be clean if he goes back to his old layout, he seems the type to be very reliable and secure when he's in comfortable territory. Also, given the way they're awarding PCS now and given the impression Shoma gives off when he skates cleanly, I think a clean Shoma even with his old layout will pose a huge danger to Yuzu if he's anything less than perfect. Basically it's just imperative that Yuzu skate a clean program =__=;;;;;;;

 

Now if only Yuzu will reveal his Olys layout but I don't....expect him to. sigh. 

[MrPudding]

 

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[MrPudding]