General Skating Chat

[Sombreuil]

I really liked his jumping too in the warm up.  More irritation with BESP commentators who blathered on about his lack of form last year with no mention of the fact he'd had surgery 

[fireovertheice]

I would like to know from you all if you have looked at Kolyada FS at CoR and at CoC, and if following you there was so much difference in SS and in transitions in the two comps. I know that Mikhail PCS at CoR have been inflated, but to me there was not so much difference in those compartments in the two performances, while I read the opinion of others saying otherwise (i.e. that today his transitions were lesser / simpler).

 

I noted also that today  at CoC the scores for Kolyada FS in SS, IN and TR were the same or similar to those of Nathan Chen FS at CoR. What do you think about it ? And more what do you think if we compare those two sets of scores with those of Shoma at Skate Canada (also taking in account the fact that is difficult to compare scores of different comps an so forth...)?

 

Nathan Chen FS at CoR

- protocols/jump content: 4 quads, single or in combination (2 of them 4Lz) + two 3A (both with - GOEs) single and in combination + one 2T(pop) +  one 3Lz

- protocols/StSq3

- by my count: skating on one foot 37 secs, number of revolutions on one foot 25, crossovers 44

- protocols/scores: SS= 8.96, TR=8.57, CO=8.89

 

Mikhail Kolyada FS at CoC

- protocols/jump content: only 2 quads (with the fall on the 4Lz) + one 2S (pop) + two 3A (one popped) single and in combination + two 3Lz combination + one 3Lo

- protocols/StSq4

- by my count: skating on one foot 41 secs, number of revolutions on one foot 28, crossovers 30

- protocols/scores: SS= 8.89, TR=8.57, CO=8.82

 

Shoma Uno FS at SC

- protocols/jump content: 4 quads, single or in combination (1 of them 4Lo,  1 of them with -GOE such as the 4T, also <) + two 3A single and in combination + one 3S in combination +  one 3Lo (with -GOE)

- protocols/StSq3

- by my count: skating on one foot 40 secs, number of revolutions on one foot 24, crossovers 54

- protocols/scores: SS= 9.29, TR=8.89, CO=9.11

 

I know that for scoring SS and TR there are a lot of other factors / elements to be considered besides one-foot skating, difficult turns and steps and multi directional skating (see here: http://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU program-component-chart_sandp-and-id_08-16.pdf ), but I do think that in most of these other aspects those three skaters are not so far from each other (see speed and acceleration, flow and glide, continuity of movements etc...).

What do you think about it (without bashing anyone...)?

 

Thanks in advance for your answers and your opinion

 

P.S. Also at CoR were PCS of Kolyada were inflated he received 9.07 in SS and 8.75 in TR, 9.00 in CO, so always lesser than Shoma at SC.

 

[meoima]

31 minutes ago, fireovertheice said:

I would like to know from you all if you have looked at Kolyada FS at CoR and at CoC, and if following you there was so much difference in SS and in transitions in the two comps. I know that Mikhail PCS at CoR have been inflated, but to me there was not so much difference in those compartments in the two performances, while I read the opinion of others saying otherwise (i.e. that today his transitions were lesser / simpler).

 

I noted also that today  at CoC the scores for Kolyada FS in SS, IN and TR were the same or similar to those of Nathan Chen FS at CoR. What do you think about it ? And more what do you think if we compare those two sets of scores with those of Shoma at Skate Canada (also taking in account the fact that is difficult to compare scores of different comps an so forth...)?

 

Nathan Chen FS at CoR

- protocols/jump content: 4 quads, single or in combination (2 of them 4Lz) + two 3A (both with - GOEs) single and in combination + one 2T(pop) +  one 3Lz

- protocols/StSq3

- by my count: skating on one foot 37 secs, number of revolutions on one foot 25, crossovers 44

- protocols/scores: SS= 8.96, TR=8.57, CO=8.89

 

Mikhail Kolyada FS at CoC

- protocols/jump content: only 2 quads (with the fall on the 4Lz) + one 2S (pop) + two 3A (one popped) single and in combination + two 3Lz combination + one 3Lo

- protocols/StSq4

- by my count: skating on one foot 41 secs, number of revolutions on one foot 28, crossovers 30

- protocols/scores: SS= 8.89, TR=8.57, CO=8.82

 

Shoma Uno FS at SC

- protocols/jump content: 4 quads, single or in combination (1 of them 4Lo,  1 of them with -GOE such as the 4T, also <) + two 3A single and in combination + one 3S in combination +  one 3Lo (with -GOE)

- protocols/StSq3

- by my count: skating on one foot 40 secs, number of revolutions on one foot 24, crossovers 54

- protocols/scores: SS= 9.29, TR=8.89, CO=9.11

 

I know that for scoring SS and TR there are a lot of other factors / elements to be considered besides one-foot skating, difficult turns and steps and multi directional skating (see here: http://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU program-component-chart_sandp-and-id_08-16.pdf ), but I do think that in most of these other aspects those three skaters are not so far from each other (see speed and acceleration, flow and glide, continuity of movements etc...).

What do you think about it (without bashing anyone...)?

 

Thanks in advance for your answers and your opinion

 

P.S. Also at CoR were PCS of Kolyada were inflated he received 9.07 in SS and 8.75 in TR, 9.00 in CO, so always lesser than Shoma at SC.

 

9

Thank you so much for all this hard work. If only we could show the judges all of this...

[Murieleirum]

1 hour ago, fireovertheice said:

Mikhail Kolyada FS at CoC

- protocols/jump content: only 2 quads (with the fall on the 4Lz) + one 2S (pop) + two 3A (one popped) single and in combination + two 3Lz combination + one 3Lo

- protocols/StSq4

- by my count: skating on one foot 41 secs, number of revolutions on one foot 28, crossovers 30

 

Well this already speaks for itself. Kolyada got 43.something for his SP the other day, Shoma scores, almost regularily now, above that. For me, it's not fair because Shoma works less with his legs. And I don't think Shoma is superior in terms of interpretation, than Kolyada. Plus, I think Kolyada showed that his jumps can really be high quality. His jumps are better than Shoma's... I wouldn't say better than Nathan's, because Nathan is the only one having both Lutz and Flip and they are really great. Kolyada's 3A is better though. Also, out of all three, Shoma is the most consistent one, so it's easier to be impressed by him and give him higher PCS. 

 

All in all, I think they are at a similar level, but in my mind, the right order is 1) Kolyada, 2) Chen, and 3) Shoma. 

 

ps: Max Ambesi thought that Kolyada's SP deserved 106 (higher PCS). But since it lacked the step before the 4Lz, and that should have penalized him (ideally), in the end, that 103 was kinda accurate anyways (even if the judges didn't know it hahaha) 

[MrPudding]

 

[meoima]

1 minute ago, MrPudding said:

 

I think I am having some major break down. ISU really wants to kill this sport. 

[Yuazz]

24 minutes ago, MrPudding said:

 

 

22 minutes ago, meoima said:

I think I am having some major break down. ISU really wants to kill this sport. 

I only know this sport last year and to find out that the judges for this sport somehow unfair, I just... feel hopeless.. Feel like don't want to follow this competition anymore. Maybe I'll stay for yuzu. After that, I don't know anymore.. 

[fireovertheice]

10 hours ago, MrPudding said:

 

 

Technical panel at CoC 2017, Ladies - Short & Free Program: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/gpchn2017/SEG003OF.HTM

 

If this is true, I just checked the previous partecipation of the Italian technical controller, Ms. Raffaella Locatelli: at CoC she was also with Konstantin Kostin, that was with her in the technical panel for the men FS at Boston Worlds in 2016 too > Worlds 2016 - Men Free Program: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/wc2016/SEG002OF.HTM ; they were again together in the tech panel at the European Champ. 2017 for men >   http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/ec2017/SEG002OF.HTM

 

Previously Ms. Locatelli  has been also in the technical panel for men at Worlds 2014. This year she was also Lombardia Trophy 2017, but in the panel for Ladies and Pairs: http://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/event-documents/figure-skating-4/2017-18-6/challenger-series-3/protocols-59/15081-cs-ita-lombardia-trophy-protocol/file

 

Mr. Kostin (USA) was also in the techical panel for Ladies  Free skating at JO 2017: http://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/event-documents/figure-skating-4/2017-18-6/international-4/protocols-53/15106-japanopen2017-protocol/file

 

Mr. Ricardo Olaivarreta (Mexico), was also in the tech panel of the ladies at Worlds 2017: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1617/wc2017/SEG003OF.HTM

 

One of the last assignment of Ms. Beth Crane before Coc this year has been the JGP at Egna, Italy, as technical controller for the ladies: http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1718/jgpita2017/jgpita2017_protocol.pdf?

She resulted also among the Canadian officials (not judging) at this year Skate Canada: https://skatecanada.ca/2017/10/regina-ready-to-welcome-skaters-from-around-the-world-for-2017-skate-canada-international/

 

To me it seems more probable Locatelli and Kostin, who have already be in tech panel for men, than the others two. We will see (but Ambesi usually knows well what he says...).

 

[OonsieHui]

1 hour ago, Yuazz said:

 

I only know this sport last year and to find out that the judges for this sport somehow unfair, I just... feel hopeless.. Feel like don't want to follow this competition anymore. Maybe I'll stay for yuzu. After that, I don't know anymore.. 

 

I'm just like you. I got into figure skating thanks to a random youtube suggestion for a Yuzu video and was blown away by how beautiful his skating was.   Now I'm much deeper in, and actually really properly invested, but esp this last season and what we've seen so far of this season, its just so discouraging I can't see myself following this sport after Yuzu..... (I'm too deep in Yuzu-land to possibly turn back now). It's just so disheartening to constantly see the unfairness etc, and worse still, to see it seemingly getting worse with no visible solution to place hope in. 

 

Sorry for the downer of a post.... 

[Sammie]

2 hours ago, OonsieHui said:

 

I'm just like you. I got into figure skating thanks to a random youtube suggestion for a Yuzu video and was blown away by how beautiful his skating was.   Now I'm much deeper in, and actually really properly invested, but esp this last season and what we've seen so far of this season, its just so discouraging I can't see myself following this sport after Yuzu..... (I'm too deep in Yuzu-land to possibly turn back now). It's just so disheartening to constantly see the unfairness etc, and worse still, to see it seemingly getting worse with no visible solution to place hope in. 

 

Sorry for the downer of a post.... 

Same. But I might not follow the men whenever he r****** but I’m invested in the ladies now. I want to see the ladies succeed. Especially with new and upcoming juniors that look so promising. 

[Xen]

@fireovertheice : hmm, have you shared any of these with Max or Angelo for their podcasts? They'll probably have a blast with your numbers. And given their visibility, maybe it might impact the ISU? Or maybe I'm too hopeful on the latter part, but I pray it is true. 

 

If I had to say, the way I'd rank Nate, Boyang, Shoma and Mikhail as roughly equal in all their PCs scores, all within a 8.5-8.75 band, with a small number of occasional dips into 9.0 depending on how they skate that day. But I would hardly ever considering giving them 9.25 or above. None of them quite merit that yet, though Mikhail frankly comes the closest. Even if I follow the judges and score on a relativity basis, there are guys who are in the 9.25+ range, and comparatively judged, those 4 quadsters are not there yet. 

 

Javi: generally I would give Javi scores in the 9.0-9.5 range. I'm not sure I could ever hand him a 10, simply because his programs are just...not my cup of tea, but I can see some giving him 10's in IN or PE, which if he skates squeaky clean can be justified. 

 

Patrick and Yuzu are the two I'd generally score above 9.25 across board, probably 9.75 and even 10 in skating skills (which I don't think anyone has given them yet, but I think they deserve 10's at some point). Yuzu, I can justify giving him 9.5-9.75 in TR usually (I'm still debating about a 10), simply because he probably has the most transitions packed programs among the men right now. Patrick isn't too shabby either, so roughly that same range.  I would be appalled if Yuzu skates clean and he doesn't score above 9.75 in the latter 3 PCs areas, and usually his programs are so well choreographed to the music, I think even with falls he'd land in the 9.5 range (fall to the beat of the music). Patrick has milder music, but for what it is, it's a good 9.5 when he skates clean for me. 

 

Jason Brown I'd score similar to Nate, Boyang and Shoma, but I'd give him slightly higher scores in TR (around 9.0) and for his long, I think he's been doing a superb job interpreting, so I can justify giving him 9.0-9.25 in the latter 3 categories, as those 3 in my mind, do not and should not correlate to jump difficulty. 

 

There, that's how I'd stack up the men right now. 

 

 

[fireovertheice]

@Xen

Quote

hmm, have you shared any of these with Max or Angelo for their podcasts? They'll probably have a blast with your numbers. And given their visibility, maybe it might impact the ISU? Or maybe I'm too hopeful on the latter part, but I pray it is true. 

 

No, I haven't, but as I wrote somewhere before I have a little project with some other people of the forum to give more visibility to these data. We will see.

However, I think that Max and Angelo already knows things like that as well as the judges working for ISU at the international level. If I realised better just looking at the feet ot these athlets for some hours in my free time in the last week, I imagine that for people working in the sector (and in majoity ex skaters) there are all aspects very obvious and clear.

 

That's why also for Yuzuru FS of last season (the beautiful H&L), Ambesi in his commentary of Worlds said that in Helsinki we had seen a program with a complexity in transition and a variety in changes of edges that was never seen before, more associated with the most difficult technical content. He saw all this, shouting - rightful so - that the realisation of that clean program was a huge accomplishment for the discipline, and for the sport in general.

I have already looked at CoR Seimei and counted TR, elements and crossovers and it is also a slightly better than H&L, if possible, and it would be really magnificent and without equal if skated clean. Yuzuru and Shae Lynn working together are genius and they are producing incredible works of art.

 

Quote

If I had to say, the way I'd rank Nate, Boyang, Shoma and Mikhail as roughly equal in all their PCs scores, all within a 8.5-8.75 band, with a small number of occasional dips into 9.0 depending on how they skate that day. But I would hardly ever considering giving them 9.25 or above. None of them quite merit that yet, though Mikhail frankly comes the closest.

 

I agree with you, also if  - sad to say because I like him - this year Boyang seems to me not advanced so much compare to the others in PCS also if clearly trying, but I have to look and to count better his programs at CoC, to be honest.

If I had to rank those four for the part of PCS concerning SS and TR looking at their feet, I would put Kolyada in first, followed closely by Nathan, then by Shoma and Boyang. The best knees are those of Kolyada and Uno though.

Looking at their upper body I like the posture and the use of the arms of Nathan the most, but also those of Kolyada, traditional russian style, are very good; Shoma is using arms and head very much to project, and for someone this is working, also if to me it is not appropriate for each program and every piece of music (he has the same use and IN also for his EX...). In this compartement Boyang has still a lot of work to do IMO.

 

For all the rest of what you said, I am 100% in agreement with you. Pity that it seems that judges have sometimes different ideas. And this without speaking of GOE for TES ...

[MrPudding]

[Sammie]

3 hours ago, MrPudding said:

Wow. The juniors are really crazy talented. 

[Murieleirum]

25 minutes ago, Sammie said:

Wow. The juniors are really crazy talented. 

 

It must be such a motivational boost to train in the same rink as Yuzuru... I think whatever talent and commitment Gogolev had before starting the training with Orser, it might have doubled now.