General Skating Chat

[yuzuangel]

1 minute ago, meoima said:

Men skating is considered gay-ish and feminine in most macho-culture. And American culture is in general very macho. It's ridiculous for USFA or ISU to think that they could "make skating great in America again" by pushing American men. Because in this sport, ladies sell more (aside from Yuzuru and Plushenko). 

One big lesson, look at Tessa and Scott new website. Tessa has som sponsors for herself while Scott only have shared sponsors with Tessa. 

Or another lesson, Marin Honda is actually mentioned by Japanese media more than Shoma Uno. 

This is figure skating, in most cases, ladies matter more.

If USFA and ISU want to make skating in America big again, they should invest in the ladies. 

The thing is, this will hurt the ladies' development even more, I think. Why would any lady risk URs and falls for a 3A now?! 

[axelnojutsu]

it's not even like they can (somehow?) push Nathan with this or something since he'll retire before it takes effect and who else is going to make american FS great again?

[SSS]

6 minutes ago, Katt said:

 

Tbh the only quotes are worth reading from this article is from Brian. I rolled my eyes at least 5 times while reading this.

 

 

Brian, do more PR work

when did I become SEIMEIwas going to celebrate it T_T at the beginning of this season..SEIMEI

[Dori6886]

I promised myself I'll stop liking almost every post in this thread but you all have excellent points  I'm so done with ISU   There isn't any logic in what they say about technical and artistic sides in FS 

[xeyra]

Aside from the GOE changes, which might work if judges actually use them correctly, the problem with all of these proposed changes is that they're so contradictory to the 'bridging the gap between artistic and technical' idea. Separating programs between technical and artistic? Removing a jumping pass in men but instead of using that time to allow for more choreographic touches, let's also take away 30s of the program duration? Lowering the value of quads for...?

 

They don't know what they're doing!

[axelnojutsu]

Just now, Dori6886 said:

I promised myself I'll stop liking almost every post in this thread but you all have excellent points  I'm so done with ISU   There isn't any logic in what they say about technical and artistic sides in FS 

this has literally been my face since I've had the misfortune of seeing that article (I'm worried for my hair)

[yuzuangel]

3 minutes ago, xeyra said:

Aside from the GOE changes, which might work if judges actually use them correctly, the problem with all of these proposed changes is that they're so contradictory to the 'bridging the gap between artistic and technical'. Separating programs between technical and artistic? Removing a jumping pass in men but instead of using that time to allow for more choreographic touches, let's also take away 30s of the program duration? Lowering the value of quads for...?

 

They don't know what they're doing!

 

yeah, 1 jump ≠ 30 seconds. No one takes 30 seconds to set up one jumping pass. and it'll most definitely be the easiest jump being cut, too. which means this change makes it a LOT harder on them...stamina-wise.

[meoima]

2 minutes ago, xeyra said:

Aside from the GOE changes, which might work if judges actually use them correctly, the problem with all of these proposed changes is that they're so contradictory to the 'bridging the gap between artistic and technical' idea. Separating programs between technical and artistic? Removing a jumping pass in men but instead of using that time to allow for more choreographic touches, let's also take away 30s of the program duration? Lowering the value of quads for...?

 

They don't know what they're doing!

Taking away 30s actually has nothing to do with upgrading the artistic side of the sport. It's more like shorter time for each program, easier for broadcasters. They live on tivi license. 

[Amura365]

I'm not a fan of having an artistic program and a technical program. I think if that happens we will see fewer and fewer complete skaters like Chan, Fernandez, and Hanyu. Why focus on being a complete skater when you can win with just artistry or technical content? It would be advantageous for skaters like Jason Brown and Adam Rippon who are more artistic than technical. Plus fans would then have to decide what programs they'd rather watch technical or artistic. And one program would become inevitably more popular than the other and the other program would probably be done away with completely. In my opinion figure skating should stay the way it is at the most they can revise the point system again like they do in gymnastics.

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Guess at least one of us have got to have an unpopular opinion. At the risk of having your pitchforks directed at me, I'm gonna share it (cos you all seem to encourage difference of opinions in the past. I'm hoping this is still true even in impending dire times for the sport such as these, lol).

 

Maybe they're on to something, who knows? Given the lowered BVs, perhaps those who aim to simply land these elements will no longer be motivated to try them, and given the higher GOEs, those who aim for perfection might continue doing them anyway in the hopes  of getting high GOEs (since GOEs aren't something anyone who isn't absolutely confident and/or invested in pulling off their elements perfectly will bank on). And with the larger gap between the two kinds of scores, judges would perhaps be more hesitant to simply give bagfuls of candies to just about any trick or treater who comes knocking, because it'd be way too obvious if they did. It'd also be a lot more obvious if they underscore someone. Like even moreso than now. Way moreso. It's all, of course, still up in the air but hey, even the current score values are still up in the air, if you asked me. Good or bad, I think we'll all see a difference anyhow.

 

I mean they're attempting to incorporate as much logical quantification as possible, leaving it less dependent on judges' whims (and anything left to their whims is easier to raise eyebrows if they let their whimsy guide their scoring hand too much) as educating judges, like many have suggested, may not work. Because unless they create a grace period where the scores that have been inputted by the judges get scrutinized by another panel based on detailed replays of the performance before and only announce the scores at the very end after everyone has skated, and then question judges whose score-giving waver too much from the standard of judgment they have been educated with--a highly time-consuming endeavor all in all--or unless they're getting paid and their salaries are affected by evaluation of their judging,  I doubt judges will adhere to these lessons even if they were taught them. They're only human, at the end of the day. Without proper motivation, we forget things in the heat of the moment and in the case of FS, subjectivity will always be a handy excuse to use if any argument is brought up. And there are also outside factors that are probably beyond the ISU's control. So this may seem like the best course of action to take to at least try to limit that.

The base values may be less compared to what they are now but when they are viewed relative to everything else once they are lowered, a new standard idea of high scores will be set, I think. So I'm not as opposed as everyone else to the idea of lowering BVs and increasing GOE range.

Got nothing to say about the splitting of programs into tech-based ones and artistic-based ones since this one is still in the embryonic stage of development. If it does come into fruition, however, it does allow skaters like Aaron and Brown to medal at different events in major championships like WC and the Olympics and people like Chan, Hanyu and Fernandez can probably win all-around medals. As it is, skaters like Aaron and Brown can work their asses of their whole lives and have little hope of anything much in the way of bling to show for it...I mean they're both from the US and it seems that the NA skaters, especially, of mostly, uh, non-Asian descent, have the most trouble in blending both (they're either really good at one or the other) so @yuzuangel may be on to something when she said this:

 

46 分ぐらい, yuzuangelさんが言いました:

so is this intended to get North American/European skaters back in the running  

 

Still. It'd be nice to see skaters like Brown get some proper recognition of the big-international-event-medal variety. I don't mean the guy himself, of course, as he'd be long retired by the time this comes into effect, if it comes into effect.

 

The shortening of the programs...well, people will adapt. They always do.

 

I dunno if everything I'm saying sounds like a load of garbage to more experienced followers of the sport but what I guess I'm ultimately saying is, I'm going to wait and see either way. I mean I'd probably just be a casual fan by then (as I doubt Hanyu or anyone else who will rouse my interest and investment the way he does would be competing in the sport by then) but it'd be interesting to see how the changes go.

 

引用

At 2013 worlds, the second- and fourth-place finishers in the men's free skate, Patrick Chan and Javier Fernández, had higher PCS than TES. The PCS and TES of the winner, Denis Ten, were virtually equal, while bronze medalist Yuzuru Hanyu -- the only one of the top four with a higher TES -- still got 47.3 percent of his total points from his PCS.

 

Huh? According to this writer, the 2013 WC podium would be 1st: Ten 2nd: Chan 3rd: Hanyu and 4th: Fernandez. One of us is living in an alternate reality and I sure as hell hope it isn't me.

 

引用

One of the reasons quads have become so valuable, Ade believes, is judges being overly generous with the GOEs they award for the jump.

"I haven't seen anyone with intricate steps or connections into a quad," she said. "The bullet points for GOE are not adhered to for quads."

 

LoL. All coaches seem guilty of doing this or something like this at one or several points in their career, Orser included.

 

Alritey, I've said my piece. If I'm going to be burned at the stake for this, well, it was nice being on your good side while it lasted. ^^;;

[Katt]

A little part of me really want to see how seperating artistic and technical program would affect to skaters. Skater A know he/she can become world champ in AP,  ok lets just focus on artistry, no need to practice difficult elements anymore.  Imagine 2 groups of skaters heading to WC, and all the fights in media before it.  Oh drama drama ~~~ And in case of pairs and ice dance it would even more interesting 

[yuzuangel]

1 minute ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

Huh? According to this writer, the 2013 WC podium would be 1st: Ten 2nd: Chan 3rd: Hanyu and 4th: Fernandez. One of us is living in an alternate reality and I sure as hell hope it isn't me.

I saw this too. But they mean free skate placements. (And Yuzu wasn't the bronze medalist but the 3rd place FS place, so that part is incorrect.)

[yuzuangel]

7 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

it does allow skaters like Aaron and Brown to medal at different events in major championships like WC and the Olympics

 

I think Max Aaron is known to be a much more technical skater than artistic skater, though. 

 

But even judging only the technical side of skating, I don't think he's in the top 3 (i.e. Yuzu, Nathan, Boyang are all above him). So I'm not sure he'd be medaling.

 

And I don't think Jason Brown has better artistry or skating skills than Yuzu, either. Although I guess he'll be *more* in the mix than...currently.

 

Is my bias showing?  

 

The thing is...some people may like Jason's skating more than Yuzu's. Certainly lots of NA fans don't care for Yuzu at all. But how do you judge that?

 

And I guess my point is...there are skaters like Yuzu, Javi, Patrick because of the system. If you change the system, I think you will have people focusing on one or the other, and there would be far less incentive to focus on both. This kind of kills the sport in my opinion.

 

And finally, I can sort of understand individual medals for things like jumping vs. spinning vs. figures (skating skills). Skaters like Jason can focus on spins, if he prefers, it's certainly something he can excel at if he puts his focus on it. And someone with million-dollar spins like Yulia Lipnitskaya could still be in the mix even if she can't do 7 jumping passes in a free skate. But artistic vs. technical? What is artistic and what is technical? 

[yuzuangel]

7 minutes ago, Katt said:

A little part of me really want to see how seperating artistic and technical program would affect to skaters. Skater A know he/she can become world champ in AP,  ok lets just focus on artistry, no need to practice difficult elements anymore.  Imagine 2 groups of skaters heading to WC, and all the fights in media before it.  Oh drama drama ~~~ And in case of pairs and ice dance it would even more interesting 

Artistic program could be the new solo dance, then. Which exists. But is not an Olympic sport. For reasons. 

[xeyra]

12 minutes ago, meoima said:

Taking away 30s actually has nothing to do with upgrading the artistic side of the sport. It's more like shorter time for each program, easier for broadcasters. They live on tivi license. 

 

Yeah, you're right. Still a dumb decision but motivated by money so inevitable.