General Skating Chat

[Xen]

10 minutes ago, Eclair said:

The way they are devaluating the lutz while keeping (3Flip) or only slightly decrease the value of the Flip (4Flip) is something! 

Why don't they just blatantly say it out loud: ISU doesn't want Boyang to medal. 

Well, what would happen if Boyang jumps that 4F before the rule change? I guess that 4F value will just go down a bit? Sorry guys, my saltiness is real today....

[Dori6886]

6 minutes ago, Eclair said:

The way they are devaluating the lutz while keeping (3Flip) or only slightly decrease the value of the Flip (4Flip) is something! 

Why don't they just blatantly say it out loud: ISU doesn't want Boyang to medal. 

I think they don't want skaters from asian countries to dominate the top like it is now. They want us and european skaters (like in 90's and early 2000's). But it's racist so they can't say it out loud even if this is what ISU thinks. 

[Eclair]

5 minutes ago, Dori6886 said:

I think they don't want skaters from asian countries to dominate the top like it is now. They want us and european skaters (like in 90's and early 2000's). But it's racist so they can't say it out loud even if this is what ISU thinks. 

I think so, too. But Japan is a big sponsor, so they don't really mind them having a medal contender in the future. And they know, if they propose something that will not be beneficial to what the Japanese federation want, they won't get their approval. So the value for 4flip and 3 flip stays almost the same. They're picking on the skater with the weakest federation and that is Boyang ...

[Xen]

Just now, Eclair said:

I think so, too. But Japan is a big sponsor, so they don't really mind them having a medal contender in the future. And they know, if they propose something that will not be beneficial to what the Japanese federation want, they won't get their approval. So the value for 4flip and 3 flip stays almost the same. They're picking on the skater with the weakest federation and that is Boyang ...

...well then Chinese fed, I think it's time we got Alibaba of Taobao fame to get interested in figure skating, right? I wonder what would happen if Taobao decides to start a figure skating fund. Also, wouldn't South Korea get hit too? 

[Eclair]

1 minute ago, Xen said:

...well then Chinese fed, I think it's time we got Alibaba of Taobao fame to get interested in figure skating, right? I wonder what would happen if Taobao decides to start a figure skating fund. Also, wouldn't South Korea get hit too? 

All small skating federation would get hit, as they don't get the PCS and those cushion points if they fall. That's the whole purpose of this. 

[fluffypooh]

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

Fun fact: the proposed new Base Values for jumps will be lower than what they were before 2010. A 4T was worth 9.8 in 2008, and went to 10.3 in 2010, and now they'll lower it to 9.5. Same with all the other quads and triples (except the flip, that one escaped unharmed); all base values will be lower than they were in Vancouver, back when the results there and related controversy made them raise the BV, especially on quads. Now their proposed BVs will be lower than they were even before then. 

 

someone needs to call Plushenko, he would be very sad to see the sports going backward  

[Xen]

2 minutes ago, fluffypooh said:

 

someone needs to call Plushenko, he would be very sad to see the sports going backward  

Would love for Plush and Yagudin to unify for once and tell ISU to stop being stupid. Heck, possibly even Evan could get involved....

I'm also looking at the point system and wondering how the hell does this help US men's skaters...it doesn't especially on the 3A and the 4Lz especially since quite a number of US men's (nate and Vincent) do them. 

[Sombreuil]

13 minutes ago, Xen said:

Would love for Plush and Yagudin to unify for once and tell ISU to stop being stupid. Heck, possibly even Evan could get involved....

I'm also looking at the point system and wondering how the hell does this help US men's skaters...it doesn't especially on the 3A and the 4Lz especially since quite a number of US men's (nate and Vincent) do them. 

Ah, but was all this percolating before they came through?  Is that why there's this idea of a tech champ ( N/V) and an artistic one (J)- or at least a chance at it

[the50person]

16 hours ago, cirelle said:

 

I was actually thinking the same, there needs at least one 15 point 4A from Yuzu.  But a bit weird how the 4Lo takes a bigger point reduction than the Flip. And the 4A's is sooo much bigger than any of the others.

looking at the changes, it feels as if they're almost targeting yuzu specifically, no? attacking his advantage as the complete package, increasing goe corridor to allow more room for inflation and politick, decr 4A, 4Lo and 3A.

[Murieleirum]

Knowing Yuzu, he might just use the changes in his favour and jump the perfect 4A with +5 GOE and get 17.5 points. And Fuck ISU with it. 

[Valkyria]

If they're really trying to benefit some skaters over others, I wonder how that would even work. These changes are medium-term at least, so many of the skaters involved in politiking now wouldn't be competing anymore by then. Why go against Yuzuru, Javier and Patrick's complete package when they probably won't be around for that? Boyang I kind of understand, but still. Skaters like Nathan and Zhou are on the same boat as him because they've grown with the same system, so a complete overhaul like this would hit them, too. If you think about it, all current skaters have already spent their whole lives training and skating to profit from the CoP in their own way, so turning the sport on its head like this would take so much effort to adapt to: the older ones would probably just retire to avoid the hassle, and then you'd have a generational vacuum while those who choose to stay deal with the aftermath and wait for new skaters to grow with the new system.

 

In short: it's deeply stupid and they can't even really predict who's gonna benefit from it because some of the current skaters won't be here for it and the rest are still primed for the current system.

 

(Also, big thanks to @xeyra for bringing the comparison of the new proposed BV with the ones pre-Vancouver. I was here for the platinum medal shitshow and I can't believe the ISU would be stupid enough to risk another one)

[Xen]

@xeyra hope you don't mind, cause let's just call out bias for what it is, bias! It's cause someone's idea of an ideal skater is getting continuously trounced by a bunch of asian skaters, never mind said ideal skater is a lot more humble and probably do not want the ISU moving mountains and causing controversy to help him win. No skater wants to be rumored to have won due to rules manipulation and not their skill, least of all the ideal skater mentioned by a certain B******** The root of the issue is how skating is funded in Western Europe and even the US, but the rules changes may create more problems in getting resources there, thereby killing the sport in Western Europe, rather than aid it. 

https://planethanyu.com/topic/3-general-yuzuru-chat/?do=findComment&comment=75381

 

@Valkyria

25 minutes ago, Valkyria said:

If they're really trying to benefit some skaters over others, I wonder how that would even work.

I wonder if this would even get passed. I'm not sure how Japan fed would feel since ladie's and men's, their best ones, will be affected. On the ladies side, the BV would already hit Russian and Japanese ladies the most, since they are the ones training the quads and 3As. From the ladies, this would definitely help the US gals, but I don't see that many rising stars in western europe ladies scene. But it would not "save" the US gals since the Japanese and Russian ladies aren't exactly slouches on the triple jumps either. For the men, I don't see anyone benefiting in the immediate 4 years after this Oly. 

 

I would also be a bit amused by Canadian Fed or Chinese fed getting behind this, since Canada has Gogolev in the wings. US has plenty of quadsters among the men. And China's always been good at Pairs technical components. Canada would also be slightly burnt by the pairs throws point reduction, as would France. I see more downsides to this than upsides, so I really would need to ask which Fed would support this proposal, when the most we can say is that everyone will get hurt, and in some parts some feds will be hurt more than others. 

[xeyra]

13 minutes ago, Xen said:

@xeyra hope you don't mind, cause let's just call out bias for what it is, bias! It's cause someone's idea of an ideal skater is getting continuously trounced by a bunch of asian skaters, never mind said ideal skater is a lot more humble and probably do not want the ISU moving mountains and causing controversy to help him win. No skater wants to be rumored to have won due to rules manipulation and not their skill, least of all the ideal skater mentioned by a certain B******** The root of the issue is how skating is funded in Western Europe and even the US, but the rules changes may create more problems in getting resources there, thereby killing the sport in Western Europe, rather than aid it. 

https://planethanyu.com/topic/3-general-yuzuru-chat/?do=findComment&comment=75381

 

 

It's not like these changes will benefit any of the current uncles who better match the 'ideal skater', who will retire after 2018, or many of those artistic skaters like Misha Ge, who can do a clean program with beautiful choreography and never get past 80s in his PCS in the current system. Jason Brown is basically the only non-quadster who can get any 9s, which he well deserves because he's awesome, but let's not pretend it's not because he's from a big federation. 

[kaeryth]

Looking at it more closely, I don't think it's about a single fed/skater benefiting from the change. I think it's actually a power grab by ISU. They've essentially lost control over scoring in the 2 fields that advanced quickly in the technical side (men and pairs). I mean judges can inflate or deflate PCS with the reason of it's "subjectivity" but BV is BV. The worst they can do to manipulate GOE for a good quad jump/throw is give it a 1 or 0 (probably why they want a +/- 5 GOE - higher chance /score to manipulate).  Meanwhile, they're also effectively trying to curtail what's happening with the men's field from happening with the ladies. If you can do a good 3Lz and get high GOEs (by Tano-ing and rippon-ing everything apparently) then there's no incentive for practicing the 3A.

[xeyra]

6 minutes ago, Floria said:

They also made it pretty clear at Worlds 2017. But this time they didn't get it their way.     

 

Bringing this here so as not to clog up the General thread too much.

 

Having some bias for skaters of your own country/continent and some old school personal preferences in skating style in natural. Politicking for your preferences is also part of the sport considering the way judges are nominated for competitions (not by random draw of judges but of countries, which then choose their judges). Even within Europe, though, there's different preferences. Not everyone will have the same bias and enjoy the same things. Or be influenced by the same parties or have the same influence. But she's the wife of the president of the ISU committee making her bias so public, so it's comment worthy. 

 

Javi IS a good posterboy for the sport: he's handsome, with good technique on his quads and fits a quintessential idea of male skating that is less... controversial. His 2016 FS was an amazing vehicle and he had the greatest stage outside of the Olympics to show it and he did (his Elvis FS last season wasn't nearly as good, IMHO; Nic Nadeau made a more charismatic Elvis). Patrick too, is a good example of great balance. And it's not like Yuzu is being denied no matter how good he is or he wouldn't be having the kind of scores he's broken records with.

 

On a different subject, back into the scoring changes, as much as one might wonder the effect of these scoring changes, the ones who might be less hit by them will be those who already have good technique and components. But it'll depend on how well the new GOE ranges can be implemented and how well their judges will use them. Which, as I've said before, seeing how they can barely deal with the -3+3 range, doesn't bode well.