General Skating Chat

[Xen]

14 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Bringing this here so as not to clog up the General thread too much.

 

Having some bias for skaters of your own country/continent and some old school personal preferences in skating style in natural. Politicking for your preferences is also part of the sport considering the way judges are nominated for competitions (not by random draw of judges but of countries, which then choose their judges). Even within Europe, though, there's different preferences. Not everyone will have the same bias and enjoy the same things. Or be influenced by the same parties or have the same influence. But she's the wife of the president of the ISU committee making her bias so public, so it's comment worthy. 

 

Javi IS a good posterboy for the sport: he's handsome, with good technique on his quads and fits a quintessential idea of male skating that is less... controversial. His 2016 FS was an amazing vehicle and he had the greatest stage outside of the Olympics to show it and he did (his Elvis FS last season wasn't nearly as good, IMHO; Nic Nadeau made a more charismatic Elvis). Patrick too, is a good example of great balance. And it's not like Yuzu is being denied no matter how good he is or he wouldn't be having the kind of scores he's broken records with.

 

On a different subject, back into the scoring changes, as much as one might wonder the effect of these scoring changes, the ones who might be less hit by them will be those who already have good technique and components. But it'll depend on how well the new GOE ranges can be implemented and how well their judges will use them. Which, as I've said before, seeing how they can barely deal with the -3+3 range, doesn't bode well. 

She doesn't gush so much about Patrick. And her admiration for Shoma and Nathan seem kind of cursory...especially if you consider she gushes about how Nathan is so good at jumping and then goes in the same post (GPF 2016) to say yeah, jumps should be hit....but it's probably good for us to know where some ISU sits on the bias meter. It's okay to even have bias, but to act on it is a different issue.

[Xen]

https://twitter.com/Iron_Klaus/status/907593594818744320 --> cause I suck at embedding tweets...

Is this what I think it's saying, that essentially US, Russia, China all went "nope" on the rules amendment? And the suspicision is on Western Europe's small feds driving this? And what's with the Canada mention? o_O

[golden]

i just dont think this change will benefit anyone in reality, and they are shooting themselves in the foot by demotivating skaters and the people who watch the sport, spend money going to events etc.. they're trying to take back control in an aspect that doesnt need to be taken and its idiotic. fix your judging first!!

 

and concerning them specifically using boyang as the cover for the article; boyang has the technique to sustain him, the ability to improve his pcs as he's already demonstrated, and the drive to stay in the sport for longer than the us' top skater. they pretend like he isnt a threat, when really for the future of us figure skating, hes the biggest and most formidable competitor they will face once yuzuru, javier and patrick have all retired, along with shoma. he has a quad lutz worthy of high goe, he has great height and distance, often good extension on the landing, good flow, effortless throughout the jump when he hits it and thats already a +2 under the current system, and most of his jumps are the same when he's hitting them like he did at worlds last season. with difficult entry and steps before them, he'll be hitting a +3. so they can use him now as an example of everything thats wrong with the system, but boyang is actually working on improving in every aspect, and i dont even want to imagine the place he could be in with his skating within the next few years, barring any injuries that could stop him. and he's already a 2x world medallist, so even with politics against him, hes doing juuuust fine.

 

[norwhite]

If the news of the rules change is not just stupid propaganda I'd say ISU is not killing the sport, it is killing itself.

Audiences are not blind. My mom, when watching figure skating for the first time in her life during Helsinki Worlds, commented Javier was a great performer, Patrick was extremely fluid, Boyang was like sunshine and of course, Yuzuru was the most beautiful. She could tell Shoma's landings looked a bit different though she didn't know why.

And even for a complete outsider, it is nonsense to reduce BV like that. 4A one point higher than 4Lz when 3A is 2.1 points higher than 3Lz? SERIOUSLY? WHAT?

 

I remember how I started watching figure skating. I remember watching Lu Chen skate to Butterfly Lovers without knowing it was from the Nagano Olympics for almost ten years.

It was never about scores, but about the moves, the lines and the connections to music. Things that the judges cannot define.

When I started skating myself (out of curiosity after seeing Yuzu skate), I was addicted to the feeling of freedom, the illusion that you can fly on the ice, and the dream to become something strong and beautiful. I am positive figure skating is never going to die cuz one can hardly find these kinds of feeling in other sports, so surely people will continue to enjoy skating. It is just that great skaters might not be patient enough to put up with unfair judging.

 

Then again, audiences don't need judges to appreciate great skates. If Yuzu retires, I will watch his shows (or follow whatever he does).

And as a Chinese, I see the Chinese fed promoting skating. There are three rinks being built in my hometown, all scheduled to be open before 2022. So I actually don't worry about icenetwork "throwing shade" at Boyang. Chinese media and sponsors will make sure Boyang, Sui/Han and all the other skaters get to make their appearances in big competitions (if they don't, they hold domestic competitions), because they want to make profit from the Beijing Olympics. As long as people have access to videos and arenas, they can see for themselves what kind of skating they enjoy, not driven by the scores.

[xeyra]

5 minutes ago, golden said:

and concerning them specifically using boyang as the cover for the article; boyang has the technique to sustain him, the ability to improve his pcs as he's already demonstrated, and the drive to stay in the sport for longer than the us' top skater. they pretend like he isnt a threat, when really for the future of us figure skating, hes the biggest and most formidable competitor they will face once yuzuru, javier and patrick have all retired, along with shoma. he has a quad lutz worthy of high goe, he has great height and distance, often good extension on the landing, good flow, effortless throughout the jump when he hits it and thats already a +2 under the current system, and most of his jumps are the same when he's hitting them like he did at worlds last season. with difficult entry and steps before them, he'll be hitting a +3. so they can use him now as an example of everything thats wrong with the system, but boyang is actually working on improving in every aspect, and i dont even want to imagine the place he could be in with his skating within the next few years, barring any injuries that could stop him. and he's already a 2x world medallist, so even with politics against him, hes doing juuuust fine.

 

 

Heck, Boyang hasn't even upgraded his layout to add any more quads yet either, being the chill quadster the others aren't. His layout at the Chinese Grand Prix was the same as last season, with 4 quads only. His SP hasn't changed. He's choosing to develop himself further instead of going for 5-6 quads! 

[Xen]

Actually Phil Hersh in his blog, used Nathan as the poster child. So the use of Boyang was purely Ice network....Also, if the ISU goes with the split programs, you know China could afford to really push and dominate both. I mean, we have the centralized schools a la the russian system, and the population to really push for it. 

[golden]

2 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Heck, Boyang hasn't even upgraded his layout to add any more quads yet either, being the chill quadster the others aren't. His layout at the Chinese Grand Prix was the same as last season, with 4 quads only. His SP hasn't changed. He's choosing to develop himself further instead of going for 5-6 quads! 

 

exactly - he's looking for a longer career. he's not looking to go all out in one place and win and then retire, its sustainable thinking from him and his team, and shows that he honestly cares about improving his basics instead of packing himself full of technical content and neglecting everything else. he tested five quads at 4cc, it didnt work, and reverted back to four, keeping level headed instead of running in all guns blazing with more quads and that's why he's now a world bronze medallist for another year. 

 

also i feel like im coming across as if i hate nathan - i dont, i just dont agree with his strategies, i have nothing against him!

 

[ruruzest]

8 hours ago, Xen said:

I took a look at the article and the posts in that other forum, where apparently people aren't too thrilled either despite their harking back to the good ole days of compulsory figures all the time. This is probably a long post, so avoid reading it if you don't want to fall asleep. Or bring coffee. Sorry guys, I trained as a lawyer, so lengthy is easy for me. 

 

I'm extremely baffled by this change proposal. The BV not as much (somewhere I'm sure ISU always liked the 6.0 better), but the separation is just a mess waiting to happen. If there is an ulterior motive for this (aka Hanyu and Jin broke the system get it back under control), then this is pretty discrimminatory, and not the direction that the ISU should go. The current crop of men and ladies are selling the sport, and frankly, let's just face this- which sells more tickets, ladies and men or ice dance? I haven't paid much attention to ice dance since Anassina and Peizerat honestly.  If ISU does not have a decent idea of what an ideal skate or ideal skater is, aka the complete package, then they should allow the skaters to push the sport and define it-if it is ideal, they will be rewarded for it by the audience-as has always been the case. The idea of trying to control the ideal is counter-intuitive. You can't really engineer ideals, just like you can't engineer passion.

 

So let's assume that there is no ulterior motive against Hanyu and Jin etc for this (heck the biggest loser in this is probably Shoma!) separation of technical and artistic program, my concern is how they actually want to bring this about. The article gives no mention, and maybe it's not going to be as drastic a change, but the logistics of this could be a nightmare, and create more problems than solutions. In the end, all that work might result in something not too different from the format it is today, while everyone has to go through the painful progress. 

1) What is a technical program? 

•   Good question. The truth of the matter is, there is no way to really separate out the artistic and the technical. Are GOE's technical or artistic? If GOEs are technical, indicating the polish of your technical elements, then why are there artistic points such as footwork and incorporation with the music and choreography?  So, you may ask, why not just remove the GOEs? But if you remove the GOE's from the consideration, then a well polished jump technique, which even casual watchers understand that equates to better technical ability, would get the same score as a sloppy one, meaning BV alone doesn't do the job. 
• So based on the above point, it would be hard to create a technical program on just BV alone-GOE's will have to get involved. So then the question becomes, how far do we take into consideration choreography and artistic elements? If we have a program where it's nothing but jump, spin, step sequence, maybe they could go the route of compulsory figures. AKA every skater has to perform a certain set of elements and get graded for it. This does serve to create a bar for entering the long. But then we all know what happened with compulsory figures (aka it went away due to not enough audience draw). 
• Lastly, there is nothing indicating that completion of a minimum point in the technical is required to enter the artistic. It simply says that those are 2 different programs. Well, does that mean that now the technical can take longer time, aka 4 mins? If we go the way of compulsory testing of jumps, spins and moves in the fields, doesn't that just hyper-extend out the time needed to test through everyone? Never mind how boring it could be in the ladies or men's field, has anyone considered how this would look for pairs if anything similar occurs?  In the end, the technical might just become today's short program.... 

2) What is the artistic program? 

• Again, if the technical program is completely divorced from artistic, does that mean anyone and everyone can enter the artistic? What is the bar you have to pass to enter? What's the point of differentiating seniors/juniors/novice skaters if jumps are not brought into consideration? Will we get programs where no jumps are done and it's just step sequences and spins? There's nothing indicating that should be avoided-in which case, what will be the difference between men's/ladies' artistic program and solo ice dance? 
• If artistic is completely divorced from technical, where there is less a barrier to entry, it would probably take longer to go through all the programs, which leads again to broadcasting times and money. So what if ISU then introduces technical minimums components to the artistic program-well skaters can always report they can do a technical minimum, but then do less no? 
• And to go back into the issue of jumps in a program. Much as I also bemoan the issue of PCS inflation for technically harder elements, I'm not sure if a reverse to the point where a skater A with lovely spins and step sequences, but only double jumps or single jumps or easier jumps in general, can potentially over take a skater B with harder jumps, decently hard spins and step sequences (just not as good as skater A) so long as they look choreographically better, is a good end point. If anything it'll cause more revolt than the Lysacheck/Plushenko incident. When all technical is equal, then yes the PCS inflation is an issue. But we should also acknowledge that being able to pull off tehcnically difficult, harder elements off to a music is harder than pulling a technically easier element off to the music. If this is not properly rewarded, then what's stopping us from having all single jumps programs? At which point, why not have novice, juniors and seniors just compete together in the artistic portion?
•  What Brian mentions as a concern is a huge issue waiting to happen. There are plenty of skaters who can be flamboyent, with lots of arm movements. But footwork is about your feet, not your arms, and it's too easy to award a dramatic arms-flailing program too much versus a more subtle but footwork heavy program. People and judges alike too easily equate dramatic with good choreography, and there's a real possible danger that an actual dramatic but less technically competant skater will win in the artistic program against a more technically competant but more expressively subtle skater. 

3) The logisitics of it all

• If ISU wants to have these 2 separate programs all go 4 mins so they feel like individual programs and competitions, then the hit to skater's stamina is huge. Yes, skaters can choose to just win the artistic title or just the technical title, but who the heck will? Have you ever heard of a skater saying yeah, let me just win the small medals. Most skaters will gun for the combined title honestly. For the men, okay maybe a miracle man can do it, but the ladies side, that girl has to be superhuman. 
• Next longevity. If they are 2 separate programs all going the full 4 mins, the hit to skaters stamina can also mean a potential hit to skater longevity. I honestly cannot imagine a single skater being comfortable winning the artistic portion if they feel that technically they have not done as difficult a program as others. I also cannot imagine skaters holding back on quads once they have it-look at Mao and her 3A despite the UR always being hit. So potentially you have 2 4 minute programs that all have quads. If ISU worried that the current men's fields is reducing skater longevity and safety, well I hope they are ready to lose more hair. 

Next up, the BV issue and the GOEs....I'm also in the camp of "not sure if this really helps resolve the issue." I also found it ironic that the article has this little tidbit:

"In 2017, each of the top four men had significantly higher TES than PCS, with none getting more than 44 percent of his total from PCS. By percentage, in order of finish, the PCS were: Hanyu, 43.5 percent; Shoma Uno, 44; Boyang Jin, 42; and Nathan Chen, 43.8."  This is interesting that guys who had clean skates did not get as high a percentile of PCS, but guys with more problematic technicals (Chen here) had PCS take up a higher portion of their final skate. Well, it could mean that the PCS and TES tie is a bit less, but not necessarily in a positive way since an unclean skate seemed to have garnered higher pcs in one case. So  what if we actually have multipliers in the pcs components for clean vs unclea skates? Would that balance it out?  

 

The pairs BV changes also baffle me-if it's about safety in general, just take out quads anything. Really, quad twists are as dangerous as quad throw jumps, if not more dangerous since the lady can't actually save herself as easily. 

 

Lastly, does the ISU not have enough stuff to do? They could really just spend more time promoting skating in smaller federations (joint training or coaching seminars), figure out how to train judges, or maybe figure out some way to compensate judges to try to reduce bribery or corruption etc. The change in BV or this new technical/artistic c**p isn't the key. 

 

Can you send this beautiful , brilliant, to the point argument to ISU to enlighten them ? 

[Murieleirum]

46 minutes ago, Xen said:

https://twitter.com/Iron_Klaus/status/907593594818744320 --> cause I suck at embedding tweets...

Is this what I think it's saying, that essentially US, Russia, China all went "nope" on the rules amendment? And the suspicision is on Western Europe's small feds driving this? And what's with the Canada mention? o_O

 

My poor Japanese confirms that that's what it's saying more or less. It says US, China and Russia 'don't want to do' the rule changes. 

 

If this was true, it would make sense. Italy, except Carolina, hasn't had strong skaters in years, and we don't have strong jumpers. Italy would benefit from separating Artistic and Technical. Same for the other small federations with fewer athletes, I presume. 

 

But if this is true, then the trouble is hardly over - it's just getting started. Japan won't support this, and you have another big fed left out. Canada? I don't think so, since not even the US supported it. 

[sallycinnamon]

Any of those changes would be the final nail in ISU's coffin, and I really hope they will come to their senses before it's too late. They want major and radical changes but one thing they don't realize that first they should follow their own rules, and if they don't do that, nothing will change in a positive direction - the changes won't bring more fans into the sport and the level of competitions won't be higher or any better (on the contrary). 

 

If the intention is a separate 'athletic' and 'artistic' program, then it would mean the end of figure skating being an Olympic-level sport, simply because it is not possibe to judge a program solely based on how artistic it is. Figure skating routines have always been a combination of technique and performance (at least since the 6.0 system was introduced more than one hundred years ago), that is a main reason why this sport became so popular. It's a sport, above all, and every sport is progressing, which is the normal way of things. Why take steps backwards? It would mean the end of the competitive sport that we now have.

 

[MrPudding]

 

[Xen]

22 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

My poor Japanese confirms that that's what it's saying more or less. It says US, China and Russia 'don't want to do' the rule changes. 

 

If this was true, it would make sense. Italy, except Carolina, hasn't had strong skaters in years, and we don't have strong jumpers. Italy would benefit from separating Artistic and Technical. Same for the other small federations with fewer athletes, I presume. 

 

But if this is true, then the trouble is hardly over - it's just getting started. Japan won't support this, and you have another big fed left out. Canada? I don't think so, since not even the US supported it. 

I would actually argue that the separation of artistic and technical might hurt small feds more than the large feds. So long as they have the combined programs winner, the presitge is going to come from winning the combined programs scores. Which is not too different from the current system-how much presitge do we get from small medals?  Additionally, the smaller feds even if they focus their resources on a single side, they might not still be able to hold a candle against the larger feds who can go all guns blazing on both sides. If anything, having 2 programs is a resource drain on smaller feds. What the ISU really should try to do is figure out how to a) promote figure skating in smaller feds; b) help even the resource gap between smaller feds and larger feds-get some sponsorships, share best coaching practices, get some grants in place for the smaller fed budding skaters. That's how you equalize stuff. Oh and stop the politicking so the smaller feds skaters don't get penalized or judged differently from the larger feds. 

 

Edit: I forgot to add, is the ISI skating system tied to the ISU? I thought it was not, so another thing for the ISU to tackle. Try to unfiy the training system in place for figure skating, so my USFSA freestyle 6 translates in China okay, rather than have me go through China's testing system from scratch again. That would actually help the smaller feds too, since now they have a basis for their own training paths. 

[Murieleirum]

10 minutes ago, Xen said:

What the ISU really should try to do is figure out how to a) promote figure skating in smaller feds; b) help even the resource gap between smaller feds and larger feds-get some sponsorships, share best coaching practices, get some grants in place for the smaller fed budding skaters. That's how you equalize stuff. Oh and stop the politicking so the smaller feds skaters don't get penalized or judged differently from the larger feds. 

 

Maybe they should start by lowering the ticket prices for Challenger series like Lombardia Trophy who cost more than Grand Prix series events. 

[xeyra]

8 hours ago, Xen said:

I took a look at the article and the posts in that other forum, where apparently people aren't too thrilled either despite their harking back to the good ole days of compulsory figures all the time. This is probably a long post, so avoid reading it if you don't want to fall asleep. Or bring coffee. Sorry guys, I trained as a lawyer, so lengthy is easy for me. 

 

I'm extremely baffled by this change proposal. The BV not as much (somewhere I'm sure ISU always liked the 6.0 better), but the separation is just a mess waiting to happen. If there is an ulterior motive for this (aka Hanyu and Jin broke the system get it back under control), then this is pretty discrimminatory, and not the direction that the ISU should go. The current crop of men and ladies are selling the sport, and frankly, let's just face this- which sells more tickets, ladies and men or ice dance? I haven't paid much attention to ice dance since Anassina and Peizerat honestly.  If ISU does not have a decent idea of what an ideal skate or ideal skater is, aka the complete package, then they should allow the skaters to push the sport and define it-if it is ideal, they will be rewarded for it by the audience-as has always been the case. The idea of trying to control the ideal is counter-intuitive. You can't really engineer ideals, just like you can't engineer passion.

 

(...) 

 

Next up, the BV issue and the GOEs....I'm also in the camp of "not sure if this really helps resolve the issue." I also found it ironic that the article has this little tidbit:

"In 2017, each of the top four men had significantly higher TES than PCS, with none getting more than 44 percent of his total from PCS. By percentage, in order of finish, the PCS were: Hanyu, 43.5 percent; Shoma Uno, 44; Boyang Jin, 42; and Nathan Chen, 43.8."  This is interesting that guys who had clean skates did not get as high a percentile of PCS, but guys with more problematic technicals (Chen here) had PCS take up a higher portion of their final skate. Well, it could mean that the PCS and TES tie is a bit less, but not necessarily in a positive way since an unclean skate seemed to have garnered higher pcs in one case. So  what if we actually have multipliers in the pcs components for clean vs unclea skates? Would that balance it out?  

 

The pairs BV changes also baffle me-if it's about safety in general, just take out quads anything. Really, quad twists are as dangerous as quad throw jumps, if not more dangerous since the lady can't actually save herself as easily. 

 

Lastly, does the ISU not have enough stuff to do? They could really just spend more time promoting skating in smaller federations (joint training or coaching seminars), figure out how to train judges, or maybe figure out some way to compensate judges to try to reduce bribery or corruption etc. The change in BV or this new technical/artistic c**p isn't the key. 

 

 

I have no idea what they intend and how that separation will go, but I don't think the 'artistic' program would be devoid of jumps. I think the 'artistic' program would probably have more freedom of elements to choose from and more limitations on others (no quads? limit on quads?). I am also worried about how they'd organize an athletic program. Would you be judging PCS there too or just how good your TES is? Would it have the length and format of a SP or take out step sequences, spins? But those are technical elements too. And if you still score PCS on both, what the heck is the difference then?

 

I also doubt both segments would be 4 minutes. Remember, less is better for their TV licenses. They're already reducing the FS time for next season due to TV broadcasters. 

 

As for the BV changes, they're not even bringing them back to the old pre-2010 values but reducing jump value even more. I guess that way people with nice triples and great step sequences and spins can thrive? Jason Brown, Adam Rippon? But if you already don't reward their good triples anyway near max GOE, it's not like it'll make much of a change.

[Eclair]

2 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Maybe they should start by lowering the ticket prices for Challenger series like Lombardia Trophy who cost more than Grand Prix series events. 

what? why is that??? 

 

Nebelhorn trophy all event tickets only costs 55 euros. that's it.