General Skating Chat

[meoima]

50 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Yeah, you're right! That's what probably motivated most of the criticism. Much like Kolyada hitting PB PCS with 3 falls at CoR. 

 

On the other hand, PCS have inflated so much that eventually even your bad skates will have better PCS than your best skates 2-3 seasons ago. 

Kolyada was the only one that made audience at CoR puzzled around like they could not comprehend how he scored that much after what they saw. 

 

Russian fed is desperate for a top man. 

 

I can get why judges are going wild with PCS and GOE though. The current system will be thrown out of the windows soon anyway. Why not giving out big scores while they can.

[bubbletea0712]

1 hour ago, fireovertheice said:

 

As far as I know there isn't an unique good source for that, but maybe you could have more useful insights by other posters.

 

Here some useful links (pay attention for each document at the date of release/update, because for some things documents after 2004 are still useful/ followed, while for others not):

2016: http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pair-skating-ice-dance/figure-skating-rules/regulations-rules-fs/file

2016: http://www.skatinginbc.com/sites/default/files/technical-updates/new_program_components_definitions_and_criteria_.pdf

before 2016/2017: http://www.skatinginbc.com/sites/default/files/technical-updates/transition_summary.pdf

2004: http://www.usfsa.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf

 

In this part of the site of the USFSA you can find ISU updates, among which there could be also some news about components as there were recently for GOEs: http://www.usfsa.org/story?id=84109

 

here some videos about about skating skills (videos uploaded in 2012):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu1TFFHNZ7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzcS_HlgLKQ&t

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHKTKu4j6U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvSqpY2b_I8&t

In the same channel if you look under all the videos uploaded there, there are other about SS, TR (but still with intricacy), and other components.

 

Starting from these links and searching through the web and the FS forums and then asking to more expert fans or technicians in this platform too, I think you can have a proper idea of the current system.

Thank you very much

[katonice]

12 hours ago, kaeryth said:

Yeah... let's skip this cursed GP series and go to next season.

 

 

[fireovertheice]

On 16/11/2017 at 7:26 PM, anyanee said:

Thank you very much

 

You are welcome !

I have seen that you can find useful links and posts about PCS also in this thread of the Planet: https://planethanyu.com/topic/50-ice-skating-faq-and-introductions-for-new-fans/

 

[Xen]

On 11/17/2017 at 2:26 AM, anyanee said:

Thank you very much

There's also a series of pretty good posts on Tumblr by the-real-xmonster, with gifs to illustrate stuff. I think she's stickied it. 

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/

Probably also one of the few places that tries to explain spin levels. 

[Aotoshiro]

7 hours ago, Xen said:

There's also a series of pretty good posts on Tumblr by the-real-xmonster, with gifs to illustrate stuff. I think she's stickied it. 

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/

Probably also one of the few places that tries to explain spin levels. 

Oh yeah, her spin introduction made me appreciale anew just how Extra Yuzu is in his spins... like, half of the features he does for the second&3 spin in Chopin don't even count, because he's done them previously, so the only reason he does them are #aesthetics...

[bubbletea0712]

7 hours ago, Xen said:

There's also a series of pretty good posts on Tumblr by the-real-xmonster, with gifs to illustrate stuff. I think she's stickied it. 

http://the-real-xmonster.tumblr.com/

Probably also one of the few places that tries to explain spin levels. 

Thank you 

[Lyyli]

About crossovers: I think it was a good thing that JW mentioned them as fans discuss about them very often. They are generally seen as invaluable steps which they are not necessarily in each case. Maybe because in earlier days there used to be very many crossovers in the programs. I think in addition to their quality the judges evaluate them also in the context of the entire program. If they stand out and disturb the program they have negative influence on the scores. But if they fit the music and the choreo, if there are turns, glides etc between them and some body movements included they are fine. I think crossovers in the right places make programs airy and breathing, not too fully packed.

 

What comes to Carolina´s PCS. In my eyes she is an exceptionally polished skater. So is Kaetlyn and Satoko (anyone else, not sure now) At least these three ladies stand out from the rest for me. Their posture, body carriage, positions, lines and extensions are completed and done to the fullest. For example I always admire Kaetlyn´s arms, how she controls them through the performance. And also I see a slight difference in their edges compared to many other skaters. But that is only my personal opinion of course.  
 

[Katt]

2 hours ago, Lyyli said:

About crossovers: I think it was a good thing that JW mentioned them as fans discuss about them very often. They are generally seen as invaluable steps which they are not necessarily in each case. Maybe because in earlier days there used to be very many crossovers in the programs. I think in addition to their quality the judges evaluate them also in the context of the entire program. If they stand out and disturb the program they have negative influence on the scores. But if they fit the music and the choreo, if there are turns, glides etc between them and some body movements included they are fine. I think crossovers in the right places make programs airy and breathing, not too fully packed.

 

What comes to Carolina´s PCS. In my eyes she is an exceptionally polished skater. So is Kaetlyn and Satoko (anyone else, not sure now) At least these three ladies stand out from the rest for me. Their posture, body carriage, positions, lines and extensions are completed and done to the fullest. For example I always admire Kaetlyn´s arms, how she controls them through the performance. And also I see a slight difference in their edges compared to many other skaters. But that is only my personal opinion of course.  
 

Well, IMO, crossover fall into skating skills more than transition. The quality of crossover and transition play a big part, for example I know Alina and Evgenia's programs are packed with difficult transition, but they didnt have ability to execute it nicely yet, especially Alina so she often look rush and a bit messy. Sometime I wish they could take out some of it. Some skater do have good crossover and fit the music ( ie Yuzuru's one at the beginning of H&L) But after all, crossover is the move to gain speed, no mater how beautiful it is, how many body movements you attach into it, its still crossover. There's not much that move could give you and contribute to the overall program. Some of crossover could fit the music and and make program less busy but I dont think all 30 or 50 crossovers are. 

I dont have any problem with Caro's high pcs when she's on. What annoy me is she can get high pcs, even highest pcs in her career with a fall and some other mistake. Maybe I'm bitter but Mao only received 70+ pcs a couple of time in her whole carrer and once she took out 3A or made mistake, her pcs went down. 

[EisElle]

The question about crossovers is that they are basics steps and no choreo, as gorgeous as it can be, can change that. So sure, their quality and fitting the music can be awarded, but still they shouldn't be awarded as if they were the peak of a skater's skill. They are supposed to be part of the skating foundations, but how can you distinguish between good and outstanding if you don't consider the harder stuff too?

And a good choreographer could certainly find a way to fit something else just as well in the choreo! 

Maybe Med has so many harder steps and turns that make her program look too laboured (tho I think she's getting better and better) and judges can evalue both quality and how well they fit the music, but those steps and turns still meet the variety and difficulty in the TR guidelines. 

And you could bet that, if they change the rule and suddenly doing quality crossovers becames the requirement for high TR, Zhenya will ditch all those draining turns and steps and fill her program with lots of crossovers of the highest quality.

Fact is, Med is still playing by the rules. Others don't but still get the candies. 

And TR aren't as subjective as, say, IN and PE. That's why Med's team focuses on transitions, they know their skater can "objectively" rack up points there. They studied the rulebook. 

Sadly, we can't say the same about some commies and some judges.

And sadly it can also happen that skaters enrich their program with transitions but judges suffer from selective amnesia when they score them  

Re: Carolina. She has gorgeous SS but she should lose something in TR score.

About the other components...I do believe mistake don't necessarily detract from performance and most important interpretation, but that Caro could have a PB in pcs for a flawed performance when in the past she had outstanding skates that earned less (the last one only a couple of weeks before!) leaves A LOT of doubts...

 

 

[Lyyli]

2 hours ago, Katt said:

Well, IMO, crossover fall into skating skills more than transition. The quality of crossover and transition play a big part, for example I know Alina and Evgenia's programs are packed with difficult transition, but they didnt have ability to execute it nicely yet, especially Alina so she often look rush and a bit messy. Sometime I wish they could take out some of it. Some skater do have good crossover and fit the music ( ie Yuzuru's one at the beginning of H&L) But after all, crossover is the move to gain speed, no mater how beautiful it is, how many body movements you attach into it, its still crossover. There's not much that move could give you and contribute to the overall program. Some of crossover could fit the music and and make program less busy but I dont think all 30 or 50 crossovers are. 

 

 

Certainly there are more difficult and valuable steps than crossovers but JW was only pointing out that crossovers are not automatically invaluable. Don´t know what the rules say whether they fall to SS or TR. I believe they have effect on both the scores. I never count the amount of crossovers but just look at them in the whole picture of the performance. Agree with you about the transitions of the two ladies.

3 hours ago, Katt said:

I dont have any problem with Caro's high pcs when she's on. What annoy me is she can get high pcs, even highest pcs in her career with a fall and some other mistake. Maybe I'm bitter but Mao only received 70+ pcs a couple of time in her whole carrer and once she took out 3A or made mistake, her pcs went down. 

 

Arguing about judging in FS seems to be a never ending story. I find it sometimes very confusing. How often the judges make mistakes and how much there is politicking I don´t know. In general they are after all educated people and ISU should control their work. As IJS handbooks are not easy to study at least for me and the rules can be complicated I don´t think that I always understand them properly. 

 

 

[Katt]

4 hours ago, Lyyli said:

 

Certainly there are more difficult and valuable steps than crossovers but JW was only pointing out that crossovers are not automatically invaluable. Don´t know what the rules say whether they fall to SS or TR. I believe they have effect on both the scores. I never count the amount of crossovers but just look at them in the whole picture of the performance. Agree with you about the transitions of the two ladies.

 

I agreed that crossovers are not pointless, since every skaters, in every tier have to do it in their program. Its the basic of basic move and can fall in both SS and TR. Good crossover = good SS, too much crossover = less TR, maybe something like that  ? Caro and Evgenia are two example for these case. Caro has excellent SS but she clearly lack TR, as you can see she always have long entry before jumps and she fit the in between with many beautiful arm movements. Evgenia has ok SS, her program always full of transition and it make her skating look busy sometime .Some say Caro's fast because she does too many crossover, some say Evgenia's slow because she does too many difficult turns, to each their own. Or Yuna Kim, she has great SS, speed and upper body movements, but she had a tendency to do alot of crossovers too. Her performance are still great, but when I watch her, I couldn't help but wishing her to do more difficults steps, because I know she can do it. I know alot people consider posture, carriage, pointing toe are the most important things in FS, meanwhile others often look at skater's feet during their performance. For me, I never count the number of crossover too, but I think I look at skater's feet more often nowadays. Actually its not hard to spot who's has too many crossover. As I said before, crossover could only do limited jobs. You can hide it with some movements a few time, but when you do it 40-50 times, its quite easy to see that program lack of variety and empty. 

 

About the judging, I give up  As people said, they gonna replace the system soon, so just give away all the candies during last season. But the actual problem is the judges. If they don't apply the rules to all skaters or judging base on what's happen on the ice instead of reputation or whatever factors behind, its wont change anything. I found its annoying when watching FS these days, when the rules only apply to some selective skaters, or some have benefit of doubt again and again. Sometime I have to remind myself that " its the judge's fault " to prevent myself from negative feelings 

 

[Aotoshiro]

3 hours ago, Lyyli said:

 

Certainly there are more difficult and valuable steps than crossovers but JW was only pointing out that crossovers are not automatically invaluable. Don´t know what the rules say whether they fall to SS or TR. I believe they have effect on both the scores. I never count the amount of crossovers but just look at them in the whole picture of the performance. Agree with you about the transitions of the two ladies.

 

Arguing about judging in FS seems to be a never ending story. I find it sometimes very confusing. How often the judges make mistakes and how much there is politicking I don´t know. In general they are after all educated people and ISU should control their work. As IJS handbooks are not easy to study at least for me and the rules can be complicated I don´t think that I always understand them properly. 

 

 

That's something my friend studying law cannot comprehend- if you create a rule, you want it to be as simple and as clear as possible so as not to allow any holes to be found in it. I'm going back to square one, but that's what the problem is with ISU rulebook- there's not enough loops, and too many loopholes (sorry, couldn't resist). When they want to clear something up, they end up muddling it even more- and of course judges are using that. If you look at the judging of some lower-rank skaters, with not so much Fed support, you can notice that the judges KNOW the rulebook, and actually CAN apply it the correct way-they just DON'T do it on the top, for some reason.

 

I stand by the quality crossover=good SS=/=good TR camp- I mean, considering that LGC had a total of 3 Crossovers in it, you sometimes wonder if even good SS isn't too much, but then again it is LGC, aka probably the hardest short program in the history of FS. A long time ago (actually, in 2011) the compliment that Yuzuru got when he smashed into Seniors in his second year, was that he reaches the same speed others conjure with three crossovers by doing two, so maybe I should stop here, and just accept that the ultimate basic step do deserve a recognition, and I just disagree with a place in a scoresheet in which it gets said recognition.

[Sombreuil]

Bottom line is that there isn't much wrong with the original rules the problem lies in their application.  You can fiddle with the wording til doomsday - if the judges don't apply the rules equally across the board then it's pointless.  And that's from a lawyer 

 

and they are accountable to no one for their flawed decision making.

[fireovertheice]

Hi For whom it may concern, I updated the table about numbers of (quality) crossovers, one-footskating etc. with this data:

 

- values and numbers for Javier Fernandez FS on the basis of his performance at IdF (program packed with transitions, with number of crossovers and turns on one foot similar to Yuzu's ones, but with the major part of one-foot skating time concentrated in the STSq and ChSq; among the two-feet TR non listed there: 1 SE, 1 IB hold 1.5 sec, 2 lunges)

 

- jumps layout at the competition taken in consideration (indicated with* the jumps surely intended/tempted)

 

- PCS scores at the competition taken in consideration

 

https://planethanyu.com/topic/44-general-skating-chat/?do=findComment&comment=115065

 

I am interested in your considerations or observations... thanks in advance.