General Skating Chat

[PapiandPooh422]

14 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

I wonder if Jackie lurks at GS and saw all the talk about Carolina being overscored in PCS in there.

I suddenly remembered something I read, can't quite remember where though, that Carolina is just gliding on ice while smiling all the time... 

[Anony]

37 minutes ago, PapiandPooh421 said:

I suddenly remembered something I read, can't quite remember where though, that Carolina is just gliding on ice while smiling all the time... 

I mean... call me biased bc I do love Carolia quite a lot but that's quite an exaggeration. Imo her IN and PE,  also her SS are okay, it's just her TR marks imo that are high. Also some of her GOEs can be questionable under stricter judging but.... you know....

[katonice]

1 hour ago, fireovertheice said:

I don't want to give too much importance to what JW said about crossovers: to me his statement was just instrumental to discuss with you and others and to understand better some of the aspects I am observing in the last times.

More: this is a subject, in a broader discussion about PCS, of debate not only for men but also for ladies and the other disciplines, also because is not working well.

It is because this doesn't work properly that all the top men have similar PCS scores, so that to be sure to win they are pushing so hard in TES, with all what is happening of good, but also of bad. Yesterday Ambesi and Dolfini in their podcast were discussing if this was also one of the causes for Yuzu to bring the 4Lz this year, also if half FS world is saying that he could win also without.

Yes, sadly everyone else except the judges are noticing this trend. Or, being less nice about it, the judges might be thinking no one else is noticing...

[fireovertheice]

So, just for "fun" I checked how many crossovers - vs. difficult transitions have some of the top ladies in their FS this sesason and compared to their scores.

Here you are the data for your considerations.

 

To note that also for me the problem in the scores of Carolina are not so much in SS, where she is very good (good mix of some crossovers and still a nice quantity/quality of one-foot skating), but in TR (but she has less crossovers than I thought) and also sometimes in GOE of jumps.

See also the difference, with a slight worse performance, in her score between CoR and NHK.

 

To me, in comparison the scores of Zagitova and Higuchi at CoC were not so bad (at that competion the scores of SS and more of TR of Mihara were the problem...).

What do you think about it?

 

	E. Medvedeva	C. Kostner	A. Zagitova	W. Higuchi
COR jumps layout	2 triple+triple comb. 3 triples 1 2A 2A+double-double comb.	2 triple+double comb. 3 triples 1 2A 2A+one-triple comb.		2 triple+triple comb. 2 triples 1 double 1 2A 2A+double-double comb.
COR-crossovers	16	18		26
COR-SS+ TR scores	SS: 9.39 TR: 9.39	SS: 8.93 TR: 8.93		SS: 8.50 TR: 8.36
NHK jumps layout	2 triple+triple comb. 3 triples 1 2A 2A+double-double comb.	2 triple+double comb. 2 triples 1 double 1 2A 2A+one-triple comb.
NHK-crossovers	14	20
NHK-S+TR scores	SS: 9.36 TR: 9.39	SS: 9.39 TR: 9.39
CoC jumps layout			1 triple+triple comb. 1 triple+double-double comb. 3 triples 1 2A 2A+triple comb.	2 triple+triple comb. 3 triples 1 2A 2A+double-double comb.
CoC-crossovers			15	26
CoC-SS+TR scores			SS: 8.39 TR: 8.36	SS: 8.64 TR: 8.11

 

[PapiandPooh422]

42 minutes ago, Anony said:

I mean... call me biased bc I do love Carolia quite a lot but that's quite an exaggeration. Imo her IN and PE,  also her SS are okay, it's just her TR marks imo that are high. Also some of her GOEs can be questionable under stricter judging but.... you know....

I'm not watching much of Carolina so I don't have the right to judge her. And we all know when we meet trolls, most of them are not that nice.

[meoima]

I have to say, watching live, Carolina does have amazing body carriage. She has really good phrasing in each of her body movement. Should I give her higher PCS than other ladies if she's clean? Yes. But I am not sure how she gets huge PCS when she makes mistakes. 

[fireovertheice]

14 minutes ago, meoima said:

I have to say, watching live, Carolina does have amazing body carriage. She has really good phrasing in each of her body movement. Should I give her higher PCS than other ladies if she's clean? Yes. But I am not sure how she gets huge PCS when she makes mistakes. 

 

I agree absolutely on body carriage which is reflected in PE and in IN. Do you think this have an influence on TR for her?

Then: at NHK she wasn't clean at all, but she had the highest PCS scores among the ladies (75.71, 9.40/9.50 av.).

[Xen]

54 minutes ago, fireovertheice said:

So, just for "fun" I checked how many crossovers - vs. difficult transitions have some of the top ladies in their FS this sesason and compared to their scores.

Here you are the data for your considerations.

 

To note that also for me the problem in the scores of Carolina are not so much in SS, where she is very good (good mix of some crossovers and still a nice quantity/quality of one-foot skating), but in TR (but she has less crossovers than I thought) and also sometimes in GOE of jumps.

See also the difference, with a slight worse performance, in her score between CoR and NHK.

 

To me, in comparison the scores of Zagitova and Higuchi at CoC were not so bad (at that competion the scores of SS and more of TR of Mihara were the problem...).

What do you think about it?

 

	E. Medvedeva	C. Kostner	A. Zagitova	W. Higuchi
COR jumps layout	2 triple+triple comb. 3 triples 1 2A 2A+double-double comb.	2 triple+double comb. 3 triples 1 2A 2A+one-triple comb.		2 triple+triple comb. 2 triples 1 double 1 2A 2A+double-double comb.
COR-crossovers	16	18		26
COR-SS+ TR scores	SS: 9.39 TR: 9.39	SS: 8.93 TR: 8.93		SS: 8.50 TR: 8.36
NHK jumps layout	2 triple+triple comb. 3 triples 1 2A 2A+double-double comb.	2 triple+double comb. 2 triples 1 double 1 2A 2A+one-triple comb.
NHK-crossovers	14	20
NHK-S+TR scores	SS: 9.36 TR: 9.39	SS: 9.39 TR: 9.39
CoC jumps layout			1 triple+triple comb. 1 triple+double-double comb. 3 triples 1 2A 2A+triple comb.	2 triple+triple comb. 3 triples 1 2A 2A+double-double comb.
CoC-crossovers			15	26
CoC-SS+TR scores			SS: 8.39 TR: 8.36	SS: 8.64 TR: 8.11

 

Again, awesome chart. 

So question, now looking at this chart, it seems that the scores are not what critics are saying. 

a)  I was reading again and again, about the continuity thing, and part of me wondered if that would create problems for programs that had more "miming" of any sort. Guess which school gets criticized for that? Now with the scores though, I'm not sure how to interpret this. It does seem that they are penalizing her when she falls, which is a bit different than what critics like to say.

b) It seems that Alina has the lowest crossovers count, and if we actually compare her TR and SS scores, despite what others say, could we make an argument that she might be underscored? Her TR does seem relatively low given what she does. 

[xeyra]

But doesn't every top skater get big PCS even with mistakes? 

[Xen]

9 minutes ago, xeyra said:

But doesn't every top skater get big PCS even with mistakes? 

Not really no. I'm thinking some of the Japanese skaters do not, since Wakaba isn't getting the points even with clean skates.

That's where the reputation scoring is a problem. In order to get to the top, you have to get the PCS first, which means you have to be super squeaky clean to get the reputation for the PCS, which kind of depends on the reputation you have going in-a la "you mean for my first job I have to have previous job experience?" type of logic 

[beki]

I find it really impressive how Carolina has improved her spins over the years. Even though she's not extremely flexible, they are beautiful and interesting.

[meoima]

58 minutes ago, xeyra said:

But doesn't every top skater get big PCS even with mistakes? 

None of them got personal best PCS with mistakes... 

[xeyra]

7 minutes ago, meoima said:

None of them got personal best PCS with mistakes... 

 

Yeah, you're right! That's what probably motivated most of the criticism. Much like Kolyada hitting PB PCS with 3 falls at CoR. 

 

On the other hand, PCS have inflated so much that eventually even your bad skates will have better PCS than your best skates 2-3 seasons ago. 

[xeyra]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

Not really no. I'm thinking some of the Japanese skaters do not, since Wakaba isn't getting the points even with clean skates.

That's where the reputation scoring is a problem. In order to get to the top, you have to get the PCS first, which means you have to be super squeaky clean to get the reputation for the PCS, which kind of depends on the reputation you have going in-a la "you mean for my first job I have to have previous job experience?" type of logic 

 

When I talked about top skaters in that sentence, I should have specified I mostly meant World/Olympic medalists who already have reputation going for them. 

[fireovertheice]

On 16/11/2017 at 1:06 PM, anyanee said:

Can I ask you guys something? It's nearly end of my semester and I will have about 1 month free time. If I want to learn fs rule in PCS area(last time I study in tech area), what are good source or good competition I should learn? (I ask this cause pcs nowaday is...) thank you very much^^ 

 

As far as I know there isn't an unique good source for that, but maybe you could have more useful insights by other posters.

 

Here some useful links (pay attention for each document at the date of release/update, because for some things documents after 2004 are still useful/ followed, while for others not):

2016: http://www.isu.org/inside-single-pair-skating-ice-dance/figure-skating-rules/regulations-rules-fs/file

2016: http://www.skatinginbc.com/sites/default/files/technical-updates/new_program_components_definitions_and_criteria_.pdf

2016: http://www.usfsa.org/content/ISU program-component-chart_sandp-and-id_08-16.pdf

before 2016/2017: http://www.skatinginbc.com/sites/default/files/technical-updates/transition_summary.pdf

2004: http://www.usfsa.org/content/JS08A-Programcompexplan.pdf

 

In this part of the site of the USFSA you can find ISU updates, among which there could be also some news about components as there were recently for GOEs: http://www.usfsa.org/story?id=84109

 

here some videos about about skating skills (videos uploaded in 2012):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bu1TFFHNZ7o

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzcS_HlgLKQ&t

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myHKTKu4j6U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvSqpY2b_I8&t

In the same channel if you look under all the videos uploaded there, there are other about SS, TR (but still with intricacy), and other components.

 

Starting from these links and searching through the web and the FS forums and then asking to more expert fans or technicians in this platform too, I think you can have a proper idea of the current system.