For Shoma, I think the biggest problem for him is he was told how to interpret the program instead of using his own understanding. It did wonders for him in his junior and senior rookie days, but now that he already established himself to be the elite, he needs to start applying his own interpretation. So that his expression doesn't look bland and similar to his previous programs.

18 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Ah, such wise words. Bach is so hard to understand, even for western musicians. I've had so many issues with Bach, every time I played it. Some pieces would intrigue me, touch me, but some other pieces would just be out of my league, from another world. And Bach is the 'difficult' Baroque, I'd say. Vivaldi is a more 'commercial' Baroque, so it gives off the impression to be easier to interpret. 

Imo, a music like Winter, exactly like all of the other Seasons, is built upon images. In fact, the sheets of the Four Seasons came with four poems, which gave very concrete images to the musical pieces. 
I've never played Winter, but I'm familiar with Summer. In the Summer, you find isolated image after image, a bird singing, two birds chasing one another, the breeze among the tree branches, the sun... then, suddently, delicate rain on the grass. Then, suddently, a lightning. The storm. And so on, and so on. (I'm talking about musical images, of course, that are explicited by the poem).

All of this to say that you need very concrete images in your head to skate to a music like Vivaldi's Winter to give it meaning, an interpretation that's not a spoof, a parody of the original.

Sorry

I have a rather hazy memory of my music teacher making us listen to Spring in class while describing the images... . Even if I haven't really studied music aside of those few hours at school, I still recall those lesson with fondness. It was a long time ago, but your words made me remember that

13 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I think Vivaldi is underestimated by non-musicians, but every musician I've ever worked with knows how much he means in history of music (well, I have to say, specifically, I know a lot of violinists, so for us Vivaldi's been even more important! Baroque music is basically strings music!)

 

Who knows if judges have this sensibility to different degrees of depth of interpretation...

Maybe I have more friends who are pianists so they underestimate Vivaldi more. I have known 2 guys studying under Brendel for a while and they're like: "we didn't know we have to study baroque as well, we didn't sign up for this!!" 

Lol they're lucky Brendel isn't that investing in baroque as others. 

Back to the topic, yes I agree with you, I highly doubt that judges care much about Vivaldi's music is from Baroque era and that his style should be this or that. Classical musicians pay too much attention to these details but non-fans might never care. 

17 minutes ago, meoima said:

Since I am Asian, and I grew up with classical musicians so this is my take:

- If you're Asian growing up most of the time in Asia, it's not easy at all for you to interpret European classical music, especially those Baroque music from 400 years ago. It is something that has to do with your culture. Baroque music is rigid, flowy and tend to be religious. My friend studied at the biggest music conservatory in London once told me she was forced to give up on Bach for a while because she's not religious. Western students who are not religious can do it well. But they grew up with that culture. Meanwhile my friend didn't grow up with it, so it's harder for her to make it. This has nothing to do with racism or so. It's just different culture backgrounds. It's the same if some Western skaters suddenly chose some Asian music, I don't think they will interpret it well.

- The music of later era like Romantic era and post-Romantic were composed more about emotions with some storytelling and moments, thus it's easier for these music to become warhorse (like Carmen, Turandot, Rach 2, Tchaikovsky piano concerto no 1). 

- I don't think Patrick skating to baroque music was good interpretation either. But at least he did grow up in Western culture so it's still within a range.

- I am glad Yuzuru chose Chopin cause his music was from romantic era with more emotions and outburst of moments. The structure of the piece was set up with more freedom as well. 

 

I've seen some ballets performed to Baroque music like Balanchine's Square Dance. My impression of it is that Baroque music is very haughty, very grand and dramatic. You have to perform with that self-confidence and sense of command in your skating or else the music will look too big for you .

 

15 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

I actually don't know much about Shoma, but his short interview left me somewhat "FTW?" Not necessarily what he said - that he had been skating a new program and had been bad at it - but the way he said it, like an excuse.

 

I mean, Yuzu has at times said essentially the same, not having done a new program well, but with him, it's like, okay, I screwed that up so now I'm going to work my butt off to get it right and I WILL get it right.

 

Shoma struck me someone like, "uhm, that wasn't so good... uhm, sorry...uhm... " which makes me want to go, "Yes, AND!?!?!?"

 

I think I'm not explaining this well but his attitude made me wonder how he managed to get silver in the World Championship.

 

Don't be fooled by the sleepy puppy dog eyes. Shoma is the shy type who is very chill about things he's not too interested in (hence why he follows senpai Yuzu around like a baby duckling sometimes) but on a rink, he's very competitive. He's also obsessed with winning against Yuzu.

We are spoiled by Yuzu's great Interviews 

Didn't expect to learn music history here. new world 

1 minute ago, xeyra said:

 

So this is something in the wording he used in Japanese? This isn't something I can understand to give an opinion on but Shoma doesn't even seem to remember to address fellow skaters as -senshu in these things, so maybe not using proper wording is just how he is in interviews?

 

Wording, yes, but also the more overall impression. It's hard to explain, it's one of those Japanese "conveying/understanding things through intangibles."

 

As for not using -senshu, I couldn't believe my ears when in a TV interview he used "Yuzu-KUN" to talk about Yuzu; by Japanese standards, what he ought to have used would be "Hanyu-sempai" - or at the very least "Yuzu-sempai" and that would be cringe worthy already -  which is how you address someone senior to you, and a tradition that is particularly enforced in sports.

 

It might be just awkwardness or rather social "tone deafness" - I think it was, it didn't strike me as intended arrogance - that works in his disfavour with the general public, and his Nagoya club making little secret of their dislike, to put it mildly, of Yuzu isn't helping him either.

 

For him, I guess one has to hope that he's similarly insensitive to public opinion, or he might become a victim of his own akwardness and bad advice or too much leniency from his managers.

6 minutes ago, meoima said:

Yuzuru does Chopin and Chopin is from Romantic era. The music that time is totally different from Baroque era like Vivaldi. The time difference is almost 200 years. 

I don't think anyone in classical music world will compare Chopin to Vivaldi because they're totally different like different music genres. Honestly different genres. 

It's also a difference in word-view. I don't know much about Vivaldi besides absolute basics (baroque genius, violins! Cellos!),but I do know a little more on Chopin and yes, the emotions is what is pushing his music forward, especially when you take into consideration how much of a patriot he was, and how most of his pieces convey the fighting spirit (that's why, I guess, it fits Yuzu so well-Chopin was of a weak health, so he poured all of his might into music that served to preserve and support Polish cause, et cetera, et cetera, and Yuzu is basically embodiment of a lithe-but-mighty...)

I guess Shoma's team chose Winter because of the harsh conotations this season has, even in Vivaldi's piece, which supposedly fit Shoma's standard!glare (bby, you can do so much more...), But that expression doesn't feel like it will be enough to convey the Winter vibe...

2 minutes ago, Fresca said:

Don't be fooled by the sleepy puppy dog eyes. Shoma is the shy type who is very chill about things he's not too interested in (hence why he follows senpai Yuzu around like a baby duckling sometimes) but on a rink, he's very competitive. He's also obsessed with winning against Yuzu.

 

To be honest, who is there left to win against? Everyone wants to win over Yuzu and Yuzu is the only one Shoma hasn't formally beaten yet (WTT notwithstanding). Plus, they're both Japanese and internal rivalries seem to be fanned more there than the external ones. 

1 minute ago, Fresca said:

 

I've seen some ballets performed to Baroque music like Balanchine's Square Dance. My impression of it is that Baroque music is very haughty, very grand and dramatic. You have to perform with that self-confidence and sense of command in your skating or else the music will look too big for you .

Well it depends on which baroque pieces though. If some skaters decided to skate to Bach's Mass in B Minor then good luck with that because it's toooooooo grandiose and religious it will eat you up. Or Haydn'a The Creation...

And frankly even smaller baroque music can be still difficult to get. It's just too long ago. Too disconnected. I remember some Russian ice dance team tried to skate to Handel's Sarabande and it was a major disappointment. 

 

However it would be nice if some skaters can skate to this: 

 

Finally see Marin's program, I thinks its her ex, right ? She's so beautiful and her SS is great  I wish she has more expressions than just smiling all the time. But I quite like this program. 

12 minutes ago, Aotoshiro said:

It's also a difference in word-view. I don't know much about Vivaldi besides absolute basics (baroque genius, violins! Cellos!),but I do know a little more on Chopin and yes, the emotions is what is pushing his music forward, especially when you take into consideration how much of a patriot he was, and how most of his pieces convey the fighting spirit (that's why, I guess, it fits Yuzu so well-Chopin was of a weak health, so he poured all of his might into music that served to preserve and support Polish cause, et cetera, et cetera, and Yuzu is basically embodiment of a lithe-but-mighty...)

I guess Shoma's team chose Winter because of the harsh conotations this season has, even in Vivaldi's piece, which supposedly fit Shoma's standard!glare (bby, you can do so much more...), But that expression doesn't feel like it will be enough to convey the Winter vibe...

Oh and Yuzuru is pretty much very like Chopin. Young prodigy going around the world at very young age, get lots of attention from ladies. Very patriotic even though he's far away from his country. Lol I hope Yuzuru won't get a much older girlfriend like Chopin did though.

Anyway, if we talk about great performance to Vivaldi, Patrick skating to 4 season didn't so that to me at all. The best Vivaldi interpretation, in my opinion, is from Carolina Kostner. It's her own culture after all. I love this so much. It's my most favorite from Vivaldi. 

 

4 minutes ago, Katt said:

Finally see Marin's program, I thinks its her ex, right ? She's so beautiful and her SS is great  I wish she has more expressions than just smiling all the time. But I quite like this program. 

 

Actually, having seen her in this for the first time, for me this will be the first time I really care about a female skater since Katarina Witt.

 

I think her program was the best of all the females and as she, if I understood it correctly, is going to make her senior debut this year, I hope she'll get the training and support to enable her to kick that Russian chick's ass into outer space in a couple of years or so.

 

Not that I'm opinionated or anything.

8 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

As for not using -senshu, I couldn't believe my ears when in a TV interview he used "Yuzu-KUN" to talk about Yuzu; by Japanese standards, what he ought to have used would be "Hanyu-sempai" - or at the very least "Yuzu-sempai" and that would be cringe worthy already -  which is how you address someone senior to you, and a tradition that is particularly enforced in sports.

 

In figure skating, there isn't really the senpai/kohai heirarchy. It came out in a TV feature with Oda, Yuzu and Shoma (so people call each other -kun).

 

8 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

To be honest, who is there left to win against? Everyone wants to win over Yuzu and Yuzu is the only one Shoma hasn't formally beaten yet (WTT notwithstanding). Plus, they're both Japanese and internal rivalries seem to be fanned more there than the external ones. 

 

He's been saying that since last year though. There was a TV feature where he said his goal was to beat Yuzu and he was obsessively watching Yuzu's performances at NHK and GPF 2015 because they were perfect and he was studying them.

20 minutes ago, 五十嵐 美幸 said:

 

Wording, yes, but also the more overall impression. It's hard to explain, it's one of those Japanese "conveying/understanding things through intangibles."

 

As for not using -senshu, I couldn't believe my ears when in a TV interview he used "Yuzu-KUN" to talk about Yuzu; by Japanese standards, what he ought to have used would be "Hanyu-sempai" - or at the very least "Yuzu-sempai" and that would be cringe worthy already -  which is how you address someone senior to you, and a tradition that is particularly enforced in sports.

 

It might be just awkwardness or rather social "tone deafness" - I think it was, it didn't strike me as intended arrogance - that works in his disfavour with the general public, and his Nagoya club making little secret of their dislike, to put it mildly, of Yuzu isn't helping him either.

 

For him, I guess one has to hope that he's similarly insensitive to public opinion, or he might become a victim of his own akwardness and bad advice or too much leniency from his managers.

 

I'm not a Shoma fan, don't really care for him at all but I don't think this is an issue in context. Satoko has also called him Yuzu-kun during an interview (big jump from her Hanyu-senshu/Hanyu-kun) and it seems like something Yuzu would encourage from his fellow teammates IMO. 

 

As for saying he wants to beat Yuzu, I think of it as everyone see's Yuzu as their goal. The ideal. Even when he was no longer the reigning WC (x2), he was still always seen as "The one to beat" rather than Javier. Its a double edged title. 

1 minute ago, rozuyu said:

What an interesting discussion!

to provide a different perspective - it often stuns me how well pianists from other regions of the world are able to interpret Chopin pieces which contain hundreds of references to Polish folk music. To me, they are natural and something that I don't have to study, because I recognize these rhythms and tunes as they are part of my culture. Yet, the last winner of the Chopin competition, Seong Jin Cho of South Korea, interprets Chopin pieces that draw heavily on folk music with much more ease than many Polish pianists.

I would say Chopin is hard to interpret properly. For me it's harder than interpreting Bach or Vivaldi. I'm glad that Yuzuru skates to Ballade again because the choreography that Jeff did is a masterpiece. I'm also sure Shoma's Winter will evolve in time.

All classical music is difficult to interpret if you don't study it properly and love it. But Chopin is by far, very universally studied by classical musicians from all over the world. That's why it's not that difficult for Asian pianists to perform Chopin. Because they have so many precedents. Oh by the way, my old professor (well just had some small master classes with him to be honest)  was the first Asian to win Chopin piano competition, and he won all small prizes as well. I looked up his discography and mostly music from Romantic era, no baroque music lol...