General Yuzuru Chat

[kaeryth]

@Henni147, Here's mushroom Yuzu's cute Y-Spiral!

Spoiler

 

[kaeryth]

Wow... Japan embassy in Canada tweeted about Yuzu at FaOI.

 

 

[kaeryth]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[sallycinnamon]

2 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Well, if it's a belief that Yuzu has, then I'll go along with it, although I don't agree that his belief is correct.  For one, there are judges from Japan, Korea, and China. It's a bit of a stretch to think they would have trouble accepting a Japanese pop song. 

 

I was just wondering why so many people in the discussion here seemed to be taking it for granted that a song with Japanese lyrics would be somehow unacceptable in the rest of the world. That's such a foreign concept to me. Music's music. 

 

You are more open minded, judges are often not.

They are used to Western music in figure skating because that's what they heard in the past decades + most of them come from Western countries anyway so they're more familiar with that kind of music. There may be one or two Japanese, Korean, or Chinese judge at competitions but other judges are usually from Western countries, so it depends on the panel but the majority of judges are usually from Western countries. I'm talking about the biggest competitions here (Worlds/Olympics). Check the panel at Worlds this year, the men's event was very western-oriented again.

Most music that is different to what they already know is harder to accept for them (unconsciously or not). Even if we talk about warhorses in Western music, judges usually prefer the more known pieces too. That's one of the main reasons why skaters usually choose more warhorses in the Olympic season. It's the safer choice and no one wants to risk that much in the Olympic season because they want to get higher possible scores at the most important competition of the quad (or their whole career).

We have seen how judges scored Hope and Legacy and that was without lyrics. A competitive program with Japanese lyrics would probably be even harder to accept for them imo.

[Katt]

Well, Masquerade should stay as an ex only. The structure isnt even close to a competitive program. There's alot of thing need to be done to force it into a SP, its own unique could be lost. Like how can you put 3 level4 spins into this ?. This is a program that only work when he let it all out, and under competition pressure, quads, spin/ stsq levels, its hard to do that. The show lighting and live singing also play a part. 

The bias against non western music is true, we have 2/3 judges come from europe at every comps, theres no way to be sure asian judges would like a japanese pop song either. Zijun' 2016-17 LP is to a chinese song and they killed her pcs by alot. 

I think japanese lyrics could still work for a competitve program, check out some Kenji Kawai's songs ( i will put some links later) but masquerade is not. Maybe its just me, but in term of choreo, Crystal memories is more connected. But both should stay as ex only

[Figure_Frenzy]

 

3 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

....again, someone mentions a song having Japanese lyrics as somehow making it unsuitable for competition. Why? I ask this out of honest curiosity. There have been many skaters in the past who have used pieces with non-English lyrics for their competitions (every piece ever skated to opera comes to mind), WTH would it make a difference if the lyrics were Japanese? 

 

@LadyLou  beat me to it but afaik Yuzu's consideration of not skating EX programs with Japanese songs outside Japan is that he was worried that the audience wouldn't be able to completely understand the music (eg. the lyrics) — which I too disagree with, since 1. Lyrics is secondary for me in musical enjoyment (yeah this is more of a  personal reason), and 2. Many people might still be able to enjoy the whole performance (not just the music) anyway, should Yuzu ever ends up skating a(n EX) program overseas (this is Yuzu we are speaking of after all, the skater with the best performance skills ever existed on ice).

 

I only heard his thought on this on EX programs though, and Yuzu is hardly alone on this matter — Keiji Tanaka only performed his Jojo EX in Japan (though the reason is slightly different — with Jojo's Bizarre Adventure being popular mostly in Japan and he (Keiji) might be unsure if people outside Japan can *get* JJBA — I haven't found out anything he said about this). I don't know if his thought on this also apply for competitive programs — I haven't come across any of his statements explicitly saying that. He doesn't hesitate using instrumental Japanese music for competitive programs, that's for sure. 

 

I guess I only want to let him know that it is definitely okay to skate to Japanese songs (with Japanese lyrics) outside Japan, petty minds be dxmnxd...

[eagle]

3 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Well, if it's a belief that Yuzu has, then I'll go along with it, although I don't agree that his belief is correct.  For one, there are judges from Japan, Korea, and China. It's a bit of a stretch to think they would have trouble accepting a Japanese pop song. 

 

I was just wondering why so many people in the discussion here seemed to be taking it for granted that a song with Japanese lyrics would be somehow unacceptable in the rest of the world. That's such a foreign concept to me. Music's music. 

 

Well, when Seimei 1st debuted in 2015, one of the judges from western countries did not like it. 

Remember, how Hope & Legacy was underscored? Joe Inham was not the only one who found it boring. It seems  Orser at 1st was not sold to the idea of Yuzuru doing H&L cos music was quiet or rather bland. Yuzuru made it work.

 

From music to movies, westerners might not understand asian nuances. What asians consider master pieces, westerners may find it boring cos they dont understand the symbolism behind the moves. Time & time again it has happened.

 

Not only that, an Asian athlete doing modern english song might not acceptable too. Yuzuru tried with LGC. Boyang tried it in his SP this season. Did the judges appreciate it? No.

Have you noticed that Brezina is considered bold for doing a rock song as his competitive program? 

 

I'll like to see one of the caucasian skaters try heavy metal music in a competitive program and see what the judges reaction.

 

 

 

[Figure_Frenzy]

2 hours ago, eagle said:

I'll like to see one of the caucasian skaters try heavy metal music in a competitive program and see what the judges reaction.

Ivett Toth did an AC/DC SP (alright that might not be metal enough but AC/DC still hits hard :p ), though I think if she wasn't so successful with it, it had less to do with the music and more with her own consistency in nailing all her elements 

 

2 hours ago, eagle said:

Not only that, an Asian athlete doing modern english song might not acceptable too. Yuzuru tried with LGC. Boyang tried it in his SP this season. Did the judges appreciate it? No.

 

Not so sure about this — the issue with LGC was more with Yuzu's difficulty in nailing all his jumps consistently, which might contribute to the lower PCS he received for it. Was Boyang able to nail his SP cleanly? Maybe on a few occasions, but as far as I remember CMIIW he struggled with performing it cleanly as well, so I think the reason for these two programs received less well than they should is more to the execution of the elements rather than the music choice itself (similar to Ivett's issue with AC/DC).

 

I don't mean to downplay any potential resistance by the judges (if there does turn out to be any), but let's not overblow things either.

[rockstaryuzu]

3 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

Because unconscious bias maybe? You could be biased without being outright racist/bigoted.

 

And skaters have skated to all types of music before, but how many of them are top skaters, and not from the strongest feds? Kinda just have to see how H&L was underscored all season to be a bit apprehensive about choosing non-warhorse, non-Western music, especially when 2-3 points in PCS could mean winning and losing. 

If you look at it from that perspective of "why give the judges an excuse to knock points off the score", then I can see it. But just to take the idea that music with foreign lyrics is not going to work, at face value, as a general given, I take serious issue with that. That's not how the world we live in gets better. 

[rockstaryuzu]

1 hour ago, sallycinnamon said:

 

You are more open minded, judges are often not.

They are used to Western music in figure skating because that's what they heard in the past decades + most of them come from Western countries anyway so they're more familiar with that kind of music. There may be one or two Japanese, Korean, or Chinese judge at competitions but other judges are usually from Western countries, so it depends on the panel but the majority of judges are usually from Western countries. I'm talking about the biggest competitions here (Worlds/Olympics). Check the panel at Worlds this year, the men's event was very western-oriented again.

Most music that is different to what they already know is harder to accept for them (unconsciously or not). Even if we talk about warhorses in Western music, judges usually prefer the more known pieces too. That's one of the main reasons why skaters usually choose more warhorses in the Olympic season. It's the safer choice and no one wants to risk that much in the Olympic season because they want to get higher possible scores at the most important competition of the quad (or their whole career).

We have seen how judges scored Hope and Legacy and that was without lyrics. A competitive program with Japanese lyrics would probably be even harder to accept for them imo.

Okay, but yet H&L did not sound 'Japanese' to me - it sounded like a modern but classical composition. And Seimei couldn't possibly have been any more Japanese and yet it won the Olympics in fine style. 

 

I think it still comes down to the skater, the program, and how the music suits both. 

 

Also, ISU needs to start banning warhorses just on the grounds that the recordings are getting worn out. I don't care if I never see another Carmen. 

[rockstaryuzu]

1 hour ago, eagle said:

I'll like to see one of the caucasian skaters try heavy metal music in a competitive program and see what the judges reaction.

Didn't Yvett Toth just do that in the Olympic season? She skated to AC/DC. But she's nowhere near the top in terms of skill, so it's tough to say if the music choice was an issue or not. And I think Brendan Kerry has done AC/DC as well. 

 

With LGC, though, Yuzu never quite skated a clean program so that would affect the overall scoring. I don't think anybody objected to him doing it really. He was practically channeling Prince, he embodied the guy's attitude so perfectly. No one else could have done that. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[rockstaryuzu]

1 hour ago, Figure_Frenzy said:

@LadyLou  beat me to it but afaik Yuzu's consideration of not skating EX programs with Japanese songs outside Japan is that he was worried that the audience wouldn't be able to completely understand the music (eg. the lyrics) — which I too disagree with, since 1. Lyrics is secondary for me in musical enjoyment (yeah this is more of a  personal reason), and 2. Many people might still be able to enjoy the whole performance (not just the music) anyway, should Yuzu ever ends up skating a(n EX) program overseas (this is Yuzu we are speaking of after all, the skater with the best performance skills ever existed on ice).

People being able to understand it is actually a very Yuzu way to think, and about the only explanation so far that makes sense. 

 

edited to add:

Just to make it clear where I'm coming from here: even the most cherished cultural institution in Canadian sport, Hocket Night in Canada, is broadcast in languages like Italian, Inuktitut,  Hindi, Punjabi, Tagalog, Mandarin Chinese and Cantonese, to say nothing of French, and most recently, Plains Cree. To say Japanese lyrics make a piece unsuitable for a figure skating competition because of crusty conservatism in the sport is both very sad and at the same time, nearly incomprehensible to me.

 

 

Oh-Kay. Now that I'm done beating the dead horse...... how 'bout that Masquerade? 

 

 

[eagle]

9 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Okay, but yet H&L did not sound 'Japanese' to me - it sounded like a modern but classical composition. And Seimei couldn't possibly have been any more Japanese and yet it won the Olympics in fine style. 

 

I think it still comes down to the skater, the program, and how the music suits both. 

 

 

From interviews can be seen how much hard work & changes Yuzuru did to make Seimei work. Orser did not agree to the original piece cos the pacing was too slow. I think Yuzuru said Japanese music(the ones for period drama) tends to be on slow side. So he speed up the pacing.

 

-> when I read the interview, I got curious and searched a bit for Akira Kurosawa's movie soundtracks. He's legendary in Japanese movie directing. I get what Yuzuru meant. 

Kurosawa's later movie Ran(1985), the soundtrack was slowburn.

The others like 7 samurai sounded oldish, not surprising, it was from the 1950s.

 

 

9 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Didn't Yvett Toth just do that in the Olympic season? She skated to AC/DC. But she's nowhere near the top in terms of skill, so it's tough to say if the music choice was an issue or not. And I think Brendan Kerry has done AC/DC as well. 

 

With LGC, though, Yuzu never quite skated a clean program so that would affect the overall scoring. I don't think anybody objected to him doing it really. He was practically channeling Prince, he embodied the guy's attitude so perfectly. No one else could have done that. 

 

 

 

 

 

Ok, I'll go take a look. I dont follow all the ladies singles. I vaguely remember Brendan Kerry doing a rock song. 

 

Personally, I didnt quite like LGC(I will get bombed in this thread for this) . It's not Yuzuru and it showed. So when he announced his Olympic programs, where he could be himself, etc - I was like,  no wonder.

 

On Masquerade, I think it can work as a competitive program. It has enough dramatic moments. He made it work with quiet H&L, he can make it work with any other piece of music.

 

 

[rockstaryuzu]

12 minutes ago, eagle said:

On Masquerade, I think it can work as a competitive program. It has enough dramatic moments. He made it work with quiet H&L, he can make it work with any other piece of music

And this is the literal truth. The guy has an innate sense of musicality. 

[holina]

Very interesting discussions!

 

Warning: Unpopular opinion, but I don’t think Masquerade is suitable for competition program.  Because it is just too emotionally intense all the way through.  And it has to be intense all the way through for it to work, otherwise it kind of loses its purpose.  Now imagine adding a quad and a quad-triple combo to it.  I just don’t think it is doable, even for Yuzu.... just way too draining.  LGC is intense too, but it is more light-hearted and playful.

 

My guess is that Crystal Memories will be his EX because the costume is just too well-made for it to be only for FaOI.  Which is fine for me because it is also a great program.  It also carries a similar message as his previous programs (sort of “be strong after adversity” theme).  Although the Masquerade costume is also pretty good and so I hope he will perhaps bring it back as an EX sometimes (maybe have 2 EX programs for next season?)

 

Spoiler

Perhaps the reason he is not doing Flamenco yet in the show is that he is saving it for the SP!!   (What a great opportunity for him to learn it too, with Javi and his whole crew around!) 

 ETA: just saw the last 2 posts.  LOL I guess we all have such diverse opinion on what’s suitable for his competition programs!  Makes for some interesting discussions for sure!