hoodie axel

I do too! But that's just... Wrong or maybe Patrick Chan being in it makes it wrong for me. Idk. It could be like Ashley Wagner trying to skate to something meaningful. I wasn't commenting on your tastes or your post though. Just the video. That consists of Patrick Chan's attempt at having fun.

Wow. No.

Well, he can ask for some money from Skate Canada after Worlds if he is.

As the overall GOAT of the sport? I actually think Kwan is the overall GOAT of the sport for singles, and that a lot of women would rank higher than men for me.

I posted there, and will stick to this topic there now.

Well, simply starting where we left off, I guess. I think Dick Button, Hanyu, and Plushenko are well-remembered and presented as GOATs for men, especially from NA media (and some of the Russian and Japanese media) because of how visible they have been, even quite recently. Dick Button and his achievements were discussed repeatedly during his commentary, and he's a well-known figure for it. Plushenko was widely discussed right upto Sochi (and still remains visible as a name attached with Hanyu's, and as a coach and a visible figure in Russian skating), and Hanyu himself is a recent double OGM (and NBC was comparing this achievement with Button's, and was wondering aloud if he'd be able to match it before PC happened, for that matter, like it was wondering aloud about Kim before Sochi, with regards to Witt and Henie). The sport is more popular in these parts of the world currently, compared to Sweden (where Grafstrom and Salchow were from). These countries (especially considering NBC's coverage of Pyeongchang) are widely visible within this sport. My point with bringing up Button's technical development agaisnt Plushenko's in that discussion was simply to say that I am more fine with Button being the GOAT than Plushy, even if they both had diminished fields they were competing against. Plushy did himself also somewhat push the tech aspect, with his attempts at 4T+3T+3Lo (although I don't think he ever landed this cleanly), 4T+3Lo (although I don't think he attempted this in competition ever), and 3A+1Lo+3F (he lipped), but if we compare his accomplishments against the demands of the sport in the era he competed, I don't think he measures up, with the kind of choreography and skating skills he usually brought up, even if he did end up winning a lot. I think it's too hard to compare such drastically different eras, though. I don't think titles are what matter most in this sport. The judging is not something I'd like to deal with and determine things like "who should have won" and then count the number of titles. I do think most fans and most media take this as the main factor for GOATdom, though, mainly because medals are the first things visible. Interesting point about the American media touting Kwan particularly as the GOAT. If we consider her international visibility, I've read she wasn't very well known outside of NA at all. I wonder what would be happening if she were a more recent skater, given how much more visible American media coverage has become since then. ETA: There's also the question of whether being a (or "the") GOAT matters. I don't think it does, but coming up with lists to debate about it is fun. And a good motivation factor to watch old videos, lol.

That's a beautiful golden statue!

Maybe just make that GOAT thread, as this is OT.

But I'm not talking about personal favorites either. Several people do mention Asada, Ito, and Yagudin for GOATs. If you are simply talking about a small sample of people/ North American media who talk about GOATs, then that would indeed fall under "whom you're talking to" category. Well, here again, there's something to be said about how GOAT is mostly a North American concept, and how people don't usually follow the history of a sport and have recency bias. Yes.

Meh? He pretty much invented multi-revolution jump tech along with Lussi. More to it than titles. Because memorable performances matter. There's also the fact that "GOAT" usually is from a North American stand point, and Witt was from East Germany. Asada? Ito? Michelle Kwan had many memorable performances, with superb technique if we consider spins and spirals. I consider Yagudin to be better than Plushenko. So, really, depends on whom you're talking to, whom they've watched, what they've watched, and what they're thinking about. Even whom they currently follow. I don't really see why titles matter as much as the actual performances. We keep discussing how crap the judging is, and then we still see the titles? Kind of contradictory. Already told you my opinion on this in the choreographers thread. And? The original quote was about medals being considered for being a GOAT. If you meant "shaking hands" literally, well, Button might not live past 90 at all. An entirely pointless sentiment. ETA: You did go back and add Grafstrom in now, though, so dropping it.

waitwaitwaitwaitwait TAT has IG?!

LOL that's OK. People were discussing GOATs based off medals, so put him on here. I wouldn't be opposed to a seance.

Ah, only going off based on Twitter. Exactly like his programs!

No Gillis Grafström?

Averbukh is indeed doing Medvedeva's program. Don't know if it was said which one, but seems like SP.

Why doesn't Team France get its own thread? There's enough of them around.

He also choreographed a few of my favorite Kwan programs, it turns out!! Tosca, The Feeling Begins, Spartacus, and Aranjuez!

I guess they're balletic because the knees are straight, never mind the edge and the gangly quality of his body during the move. I'm entirely bored by them. In the entry, he lets his arms flop -- they're a reason why I refuse to call jumps with transitions in front of them "not telegraphed" because you can always tell.

LOL, spread eagle entry into tiny wonky "quad". I am entirely bored by spread eagles at this point. I have liked Boitano's and Kozuka's, Cassar's was good. That's pretty much it for me. I like Ina Bauers better. Well, as long as anyone uses them to interpret the music, instead of "HERE'S AN INA BAUER!!"

I agree here, he had a full uninhibited season then, too. Had Chen gone clean, likely they would have gone for him (a la Sotnikova at Sochi, or even Zagitova at PC), and that would have killed Yuzuru's standing. But, it didn't happen, and winning worlds after a season of having the two-time OGM injured and not having a good SP while still delivering a good LP isn't the same on any level. Chen WILL have a bigger boost next season based off the two world titles, though.

And what is up? Did you see how generous the judging was in the entirety of Worlds 2019, how barely any UR or edge call was handed throughout the singles events? How the skaters better than Zhou (Jin, Uno, Kolyada) skated at least one program poorly, and how that shifts the momentum? Or how Zhou was placed below both Jin and Uno in 4CCs, despite neither of them being entirely clean? This hardly explains how the ISU has "dumped the Asian skaters in favour of the US" anyway. That imbalance has always existed, and I've not disagreed with its existence. I have even spoken out about it on this website. Considering only what confirms your theory isn't a great way of going about things, however, nor is confusing "being able to have a cushion and political power" with "they want this Asian skater out". They kind of haven't. This proves exactly nothing, except for how the ISU will try to defend its own decisions, like it always has. Yes, been there, too. Chan was already considered the best skater at that point due to his skating skills and the ability to deliver two quads in an LP (in 2011 worlds, for example). He was already considered the best. Has there been any shift of the title of the "best" being handed to Chen I wasn't aware of? All you have is ONE point of data: 2019 Worlds where Hanyu wasn't stellar in the SP compared to Chen, and the skaters considered better than Zhou didn't deliver well, because even you haven't cited the joke event of WTT19 (where of the three contenders in men, Uno bombed hard and would hardly deserve huge GOE and PCS). But, hey, let's take that into consideration. Takahashi was called UR (unfairly, IMO) on one of his jumps in the SP. Hanyu singled a jump in the SP. Chan went "clean" enough for the judges, allowing him to have his momentum in the LP. He made mistakes in the LP but jumped two quads (for three in total), and won it on PCS + SP lead. What does that tell you? He got very close to it in 4CC 2018. Not all of his attempts have deserved full GOE, and he's never been able to build his momentum like the others have to get a freebie. But this is a pointless argument in what we are discussing, as again, I haven't denied that Asian skaters have it harder. The point, again, is if Hanyu has been replaced as number one in the judges eyes, which is what would really affect him if both he and Chen were clean in the same competition. Chen is seen as number two now. This exact same inflation happened with Hanyu in the season leading up to Sochi, as he built his momentum and beat Chan in the GPF. No one cared about it, because Hanyu was a better skater than Chan at that point (and frankly should have been number one in the judges' eyes, although his LP sucked). This inflation, and setting up contenders to the "reigning champion" has always been a part of the sport. I do not believe that Hanyu will be replaced in the judges' eyes till he competes a full season against Chen and loses the GPF AND the Worlds to him (or sits out the GPF and loses worlds again, or sits out the season entirely). He is clearly superior. What happened in worlds 2019 was simply momentum-based, as far as I can say. Not obvious for me, but it is what it is.

Well, I'll agree that commentators need to start calling out the judging more. I don't take issue with praising the skaters for what they've achieved however. Browning is still the most balanced commentator around.

He hasn't suggested this. What are you talking about? He might have praised him, but that's not the same as this. If someone has a transcript, it'll be appreciated.

Because... people can support skaters despite their issues? Which statements? His statements are true rather than not an overwhelming majority of times. It's like Dick Button ignored some of Kwan's flaws, but he was still right 99% of the time.

And you know that Yuzuru's score wouldn't have exceeded Nathan's if he'd been able to hold on to an SP lead, how? Do you realize there's always been a momentum aspect to the sport? Yuzuru probably DOES need more quads, in case Chen tries to land 5 in the LP in order to beat him. That's the real reason, though, unless you want to say that it doesn't matter at all if Yuzuru trains the 4F and the 4Lz, because Chen already has them and can put them in the LP and do 6 quads total, therefore getting his PCS + GOE that the judges want to pile onto him no matter what, and therefore win?