It's that time of the year - coaching changes 2019/2020

[Fay]

Btw, OT, RusFed think Tomoki Hivatashi is in this picture along with Mikhail and Shoma. Poor Tomono, he did win a medal in Moscow, but no one bothered to remember him 

[Yume]

14 hours ago, Fay said:

Btw, OT, RusFed think Tomoki Hivatashi is in this picture along with Mikhail and Shoma. Poor Tomono, he did win a medal in Moscow, but no one bothered to remember him 

 They don't even know that Tomoki skates for USA.

[rockstaryuzu]

On 6/9/2019 at 5:41 AM, hoodie axel said:

Well, I hope Uno will be spared any personal attacks if he does indeed switch to Eteri.

By the way everyone is reacting to this news, I think it's far more likely that Shoma will be getting a lot of 'oh my God, are you ok? Are they treating you well? Let us rescue you from Eteri" comments, than personal attacks. 

 

I mean seriously, Shoma? You go from someone sweet like Coach Fluffy to Ms. Colder-than-Ice?  WTH? 

[hoodie axel]

6 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

I mean seriously, Shoma? You go from someone sweet like Coach Fluffy to Ms. Colder-than-Ice?  WTH? 

He hasn't switched yet, and being "sweet" is hardly a criterion for selecting a coach. I don't like Eteri (her methods, and what has been captured of her coaching on camera -- and I've called her attitude out before), but let's not pretend being "sweet" and "warm" isn't essentially a standard that Western eyes have created here. Even with that, you probably don't know how other coaches behave off-camera.

 

6 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

By the way everyone is reacting to this news, I think it's far more likely that Shoma will be getting a lot of 'oh my God, are you ok? Are they treating you well? Let us rescue you from Eteri" comments, than personal attacks.  

Let's wait and see. It's not like he gets spared attacks for his technique.

 

[rockstaryuzu]

14 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

He hasn't switched yet, and being "sweet" is hardly a criterion for selecting a coach. I don't like Eteri (her methods, and what has been captured of her coaching on camera -- and I've called her attitude out before), but let's not pretend being "sweet" and "warm" isn't essentially a standard that Western eyes have created here. Even with that, you probably don't know how other coaches behave off-camera.

 

Let's wait and see. It's not like he gets spared attacks for his technique.

 

He gets picked on for technique already, although having seen him skate live I don't think that it's warranted. 

 

My point about the coaches is that you couldn't possibly imagine a bigger contrast between the two if you tried. And my comment is based on whatever observations of their behaviour I'm able to make by watching them in K&C during competitions, which is all anyone has to go on anyway. I don't think I'm at all unjustified in making it. I don't understand why you're trying to drag some kind of cultural bias into it and claim it's something only Westerners are seeing. If you go by Japanese standards, Shoma's coach is unusually kind and demonstrative with him already.  And if you compare Eteri to, say, Mishin or Tarasova, the coldness is very evident.

[hoodie axel]

6 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

My point about the coaches is that you couldn't possibly imagine a bigger contrast between the two if you tried. And my comment is based on whatever observations of their behaviour I'm able to make by watching them in K&C during competitions, which is all anyone has to go on anyway. I don't think I'm at all unjustified in making it. 

OK, then why is someone being cold a bad look for a coach, and why does this contrast matter? Why might Uno -- who's been called out as having "brain fog" and being kind of silly on this very website, even on this thread IIRC -- not want a strict disciplinarian as his new coach?

 

I am genuinely curious why the contrast in personality matters (or might actually not be one of the things he considered), and why you (or anyone else) might bring it up.

 

6 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

He gets picked on for technique already, although having seen him skate live I don't think that it's warranted. 

And people on the thread were excited for a 4Flooptz. Doesn't take a big stretch of imagination for what might be said about him and his move if he did end up acquiring one.

[rockstaryuzu]

27 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

OK, then why is someone being cold a bad look for a coach, and why does this contrast matter? Why might Uno -- who's been called out as having "brain fog" and being kind of silly on this very website, even on this thread IIRC -- not want a strict disciplinarian as his new coach?

 

I am genuinely curious why the contrast in personality matters (or might actually not be one of the things he considered), and why you (or anyone else) might bring it up.

Well I'm not the only one who mentions it, so if anyone else wants to weigh in, feel free! 

 

On to the matter at hand:

1. Is Shoma looking for a strict disciplinarian? Has he said this? As far as I know, he's looking for growth and improvement. The most common perception of Eteri and her methods at this point is that she's basically running a military-style clone factory in which all her students are expected to drill jumps daily, hundreds of more times than necessary, with questionable technique, risking injury, and when they do get injured she has no use for them anymore and replaces them with the next clone. How is that going to help Shoma, who has already had an injury that limited his performance this year? 

 

2. A coach can be strict and still be good for their skaters, or they can be strict and toxic. The difference is in attitude. Are they 'my way or the highway' types, or do they just want their skaters to be serious about the job at hand? The strict and toxic types have a tendency to cause harm because their egos get in the way of everything else. 

 

3. Switching from a softer coach/ environment to a tougher one can be a shock to the system that disrupts performance. And vice versa. Last thing Shoma needs is a disruption to his performance right now. 

 

4. Reward is a big part of performance psychology...a cold coach that doesn't at least notice and react when one of their skaters skates well and has a good result is going to eventually crush that skater's spirit.

 

5. If Shoma is looking to a coach, any coach, to instill discipline or a work ethic in him from the outside, he's barking up the wrong tree. At this point in his career, with all the success he's already achieved, he should have internalized discipline to such a point that he'd train hard either with or without a coach. If he doesn't have that by now, he'll never have it no matter who coaches him. 

 

6. Ergo, Shoma is looking for someone who can advance his skills. As is abundantly clear when you look at her skaters, Eteri is not that person. I'd say Shoma's skill are pretty much already on the same level as most of all or her girls, and definitely miles ahead of Kvitalashvili. So I don't know what he's looking for at Sambo, but I don't think he'll find it.

 

 

[hoodie axel]

19 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

1. Is Shoma looking for a strict disciplinarian? Has he said this? As far as I know, he's looking for growth and improvement.

He actually hasn't even said anything at all about what he's looking for in a coach, and why he left his former coaches, as far as I know. And as far as I know, "strict discipline" might be one the qualities that could help him grow -- I don't see mutual exclusivity there, but maybe the rest of your response will prove me wrong.

 

19 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

The most common perception of Eteri and her methods at this point is that she's basically running a military-style clone factory in which all her students are expected to drill jumps daily, hundreds of more times than necessary, with questionable technique, risking injury, and when they do get injured she has no use for them anymore and replaces them with the next clone. How is that going to help Shoma, who has already had an injury that limited his performance this year?  

If you read the thread I mention that Eteri doesn't have experience dealing with men's injuries. I even said I dislike Eteri's methods. Nothing to do with her being "cold" as contrasted with Higuchi's being "sweet" in the K&C, but to do with her having poor coaching method. When I asked you why it matters if she's cold or not, you cited her K&C reactions, not her poor methods. Are you sure she's exactly as "cold" behind the scenes, each time she works with someone? Also, in case you haven't noticed, Uno's injuries were there around 2018 worlds, and popped up again around 2019 4CCs -- so much so for kind-hearted coaches being able to deal with injuries?

 

19 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

2. A coach can be strict and still be good for their skaters, or they can be strict and toxic. The difference is in attitude. Are they 'my way or the highway' types, or do they just want their skaters to be serious about the job at hand? The strict and toxic types have a tendency to cause harm because their egos get in the way of everything else.  

And...? If you have a accusation to make of Eteri, just do it. This seems like concern-trolling, otherwise, based off someone's perceived warmth. I wouldn't call this coach "cold" if they were showing all this off in the K&C either -- I would be concerned they were abusive. If they aren't being anything more than "cold"... are you sure this isn't just projection?

 

19 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

3. Switching from a softer coach/ environment to a tougher one can be a shock to the system that disrupts performance. And vice versa. Last thing Shoma needs is a disruption to his performance right now. 

Uno already isn't performing well -- his reputation is saving him. He already does need to fine-tune his performance. He already would go through an adjustment phase -- even if he went to a perfectly nice and kind coach in a different training environment. Are you sure he hasn't weighed any of these things in his mind?

 

19 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

4. Reward is a big part of performance psychology...a cold coach that doesn't at least notice and react when one of their skaters skates well and has a good result is going to eventually crush that skater's spirit.

When has Eteri not reacted nicely to skaters doing well? You are even free to include Zagitova's OGM, here. A coach being perceived as "cold" doesn't automatically mean they are an awful person, BTW. And again, "cold" isn't the word you want here. There's a difference between personality and psychology.

 

19 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

5. If Shoma is looking to a coach, any coach, to instill discipline or a work ethic in him from the outside, he's barking up the wrong tree. At this point in his career, with all the success he's already achieved, he should have internalized discipline to such a point that he'd train hard either with or without a coach. If he doesn't have that by now, he'll never have it no matter who coaches him.  

This is a reductionist view. As if any athlete as young as Uno won't be passing through different phases of his life and be in need of different ways of trying to discipline himself.

 

19 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

6. Ergo, Shoma is looking for someone who can advance his skills. As is abundantly clear when you look at her skaters, Eteri is not that person. I'd say Shoma's skill are pretty much already on the same level as most of all or her girls, and definitely miles ahead of Kvitalashvili. So I don't know what he's looking for at Sambo, but I don't think he'll find it.

I don't understand why you went "ergo" there, it was always patently obvious that he was looking for someone to advance his skills -- or how it relates to perceived "warmth". He can easily gain something from Eteri -- consistency, and new quad jumps, and packaging that seems to work the best for one of the disciplines. What he won't gain is proper technique -- but it is unlikely ANY coach would have changed technique as shoddy as his by much, unless he wants to bid farewell to Beijing. The thing he loses with Eteri is experience to deal with him as a top senior man, which again has nothing to do with her perceived warmth.

 

19 hours ago, rockstaryuzu said:

I don't understand why you're trying to drag some kind of cultural bias into it and claim it's something only Westerners are seeing.

I didn't say that, lol. I just don't see the point of "coach should be sweet and warm" which is indeed more of a Western thing from what I can see. I don't believe all countries in the world see it like that. Even you yourself state that Higuchi is kinder than most Japanese coaches. Eteri is colder than most Russian coaches, let's say. So? As long as the coach knows how to deal with the skater (and again, I have already stated that Eteri might not be able to deal with a top man), who cares what image they project to the audience?

 

Oh, BTW, Rafael Arutunyan? He's spoken about how different it is to train in Russia compared to the USA. He said he's had to take classes to understand what works better in the US compared to Russia. He is sweet to Nathan Chen and Marin Honda. One is a two time WC due to him. He used to rip Wagner and Rippon apart in the K&C after poor performances. One is a WSM, the other an Olympic Team Bronze. It is easy to look at what is put in front of us, and think very little about the dynamic that works for the athlete and the coaches.

[Umebachi]

23 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

 

I didn't say that, lol. I just don't see the point of "coach should be sweet and warm" which is indeed more of a Western thing from what I can see. I don't believe all countries in the world see it like that. Even you yourself state that Higuchi is kinder than most Japanese coaches. Eteri is colder than most Russian coaches, let's say. So? As long as the coach knows how to deal with the skater (and again, I have already stated that Eteri might not be able to deal with a top man), who cares what image they project to the audience?

 

 

Figure skating, like any other sports or art, is a study in human interaction, and as fans we enjoy observing the emotional interactions displayed at K&C.  Please let us be kind to each other and enjoy the different perspectives brought forward by fans from so many different backgrounds!   

BtW, I am Japanese and at times, I find my own compatriots to be too much into "sweet and warm" - perhaps as an antidote to the severity of our workplace, especially for the women... 

[eagle]

37 minutes ago, hoodie axel said:

He actually hasn't even said anything at all about what he's looking for in a coach, and why he left his former coaches, as far as I know. And as far as I know, "strict discipline" might be one the qualities that could help him grow -- I don't see mutual exclusivity there, but maybe the rest of your response will prove me wrong.

 

If you read the thread I mention that Eteri doesn't have experience dealing with men's injuries. I even said I dislike Eteri's methods. Nothing to do with her being "cold" as contrasted with Higuchi's being "sweet", but to do with her having poor coaching method. When I asked you why it matters if she's cold or not, you cited her K&C reactions, not her poor methods. Which was literally all my question was about. Also, in case you haven't noticed, Uno's injuries were there around 2018 worlds, and popped up again around 2019 4CCs -- so much so for kind-hearted coaches being able to deal with injuries?

 

And...? If you have a accusation to make of Eteri, just do it. This seems like concern-trolling, otherwise.

 

Uno already isn't performing well -- his reputation is saving him. He already does need to fine-tune his performance. He already would go through an adjustment phase -- even if he went to a perfectly nice and kind coach in a different training environment. Are you sure he hasn't weighed any of these things in his mind?

 

When has Eteri not reacted nicely to skaters not doing well? You are even free to include Zagitova's OGM, here. A coach being "cold" doesn't automatically mean they are an awful person, BTW.

 

This is a reductionist view. As if any athlete as young as Uno won't be passing through different phases of his life and be in need of different ways of trying to discipline himself.

 

I don't understand why you went "ergo" there, it was always patently obvious that he was looking for someone to advance his skills -- or how it relates to "warmth". He can easily gain something from Eteri -- consistency, and new quad jumps, and packaging that seems to work the best for one of the disciplines. What he won't gain is proper technique -- but it is unlikely ANY coach would have changed technique as shoddy as his by much, unless he wants to bid farewell to Beijing. The thing he loses with Eteri is experience with being dealt as a top senior men, which again has nothing to do with her perceived warmth.

 

I didn't say that, lol. I just don't see the point of "coach should be sweet and warm" which is indeed more of a Western thing from what I can see. I don't believe all countries in the world see it like that. Even you yourself state that Higuchi is kinder than most Japanese coaches. Eteri is colder than most Russian coaches, let's say. So? As long as the coach knows how to deal with the skater (and again, I have already stated that Eteri might not be able to deal with a top man), who cares what image they project to the audience?

 

 

1) Eteri shouted/raised her voice at Zagitova during Europeans practice session, the 2019 one. In public, in full view of everyone, Zagitova was crying.

By now, I dunno if the youtube video is still available but a lot of fans knew abt this incident.

 

2) Shoma's ankle injury problems started to come to head during 2018 WC. Shoma is not one to back down, withdraw, etc. Pretty much following after Yuzu.

Eteri tends to push her athletes to the limit. I forgot the name of the skater, there was a Russian male singles skater whom Eteri forced to skate with back injury. That skater had to retire before turning 20. For Eteri, results matter the most.

All of this is not good for Shoma's physical & mental health. Not at his age.

Yuzu needed Orser to tell them to slow down & not hurt himself - and Yuzu still overtrain anyway. If it was Eteri, Yuzu would have broken his ankle before ever winning his 1st OG Gold.

Mental - Shoma needs to be learn how to rise up from being Mr 2nd place to be champion. Under Eteri & her shouting, it will not happen. She will just move on to the next up & coming youngster who can win titles. Which was what happened to Yulia & would have happened to Evgenia if she didnt leave.

 

These 2 factors plus the fact - over the years Eteri has not had success with male skaters or experience in handling older skaters are minus points.

If Shoma wants to train in Russia Mishin would be better choice. Even new coach Plushenko is better. Mishin having trained male OG champs,Plushenko having been an OG champ himself knows what it takes.

 

 

[yuzuangel]

I feel like saying "Shoma is going from one of the [outwardly] nicest coaches to one of the [outwardly] coldest ones" is purely an observation, and one that makes sense and may give someone pause, because it's not hard to imagine such a change would be hard to adjust to. So i don't know why it's such a weird statement that needs to be picked apart.

[yuzuangel]

 

 

skatee without a coach 

[Katt]

 

Shoma won't go to a new coaching team to search for a few minutes of nice, sweet K&C. I think people forget that Brian was critized for being cold at K&C at his early coaching days. Even coaches need time to find the right method and how to deal with multiple situations.Just curious, who would be the best coaching team for Shoma at the moment, because according to lots of fans, not Eteri, not Raf, not TomZ, not TCC, then who ? 

 

PS : I read on twitter that Shoma might decide new coaching team next year. He might train by himself this season. I don't even know what's his/his team's strategy is.

[Fay]

Yeah, right, training without a coach is what is likely to help you, Shoma. Consult Michele Kwan whenever you can... 

[hoodie axel]

47 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

I feel like saying "Shoma is going from one of the [outwardly] nicest coaches to one of the [outwardly] coldest ones" is purely an observation, and one that makes sense and may give someone pause, because it's not hard to imagine such a change would be hard to adjust to. So i don't know why it's such a weird statement that needs to be picked apart.

Admittedly, because I wouldn't make such a statement, I felt it an odd thing to be pointed out... But I agree if it's purely observational, nothing more, it doesn't matter. I am glad I asked anyway, because it did give me insight into assumptions made or not made by at least one other person, though.

 

@rockstaryuzuSorry if I came off too heatedly.

 

17 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

 

 

skatee without a coach 

This is ridiculous, however.

 

49 minutes ago, eagle said:

1) Eteri shouted/raised her voice at Zagitova during Europeans practice session, the 2019 one. In public, in full view of everyone, Zagitova was crying.

By now, I dunno if the youtube video is still available but a lot of fans knew abt this incident.

 

2) Shoma's ankle injury problems started to come to head during 2018 WC. Shoma is not one to back down, withdraw, etc. Pretty much following after Yuzu.

Eteri tends to push her athletes to the limit. I forgot the name of the skater, there was a Russian male singles skater whom Eteri forced to skate with back injury. That skater had to retire before turning 20. For Eteri, results matter the most.

All of this is not good for Shoma's physical & mental health. Not at his age.

Yuzu needed Orser to tell them to slow down & not hurt himself - and Yuzu still overtrain anyway. If it was Eteri, Yuzu would have broken his ankle before ever winning his 1st OG Gold.

Mental - Shoma needs to be learn how to rise up from being Mr 2nd place to be champion. Under Eteri & her shouting, it will not happen. She will just move on to the next up & coming youngster who can win titles. Which was what happened to Yulia & would have happened to Evgenia if she didnt leave.

 

These 2 factors plus the fact - over the years Eteri has not had success with male skaters or experience in handling older skaters are minus points.

If Shoma wants to train in Russia Mishin would be better choice. Even new coach Plushenko is better. Mishin having trained male OG champs,Plushenko having been an OG champ himself knows what it takes.

 

 

But I don't disagree with this? I dislike her methods, as I already stated (although I have no idea if she'll just move on to the next youngster or not while dealing with someone of Uno's stature from a foreign federation, nor do I know what is or isn't good for Uno at his age, or what will or won't happen with Eteri's shouting). I don't think I can draw any of these conclusions from her being cold in the K&C, however.