Proposed changes for next season

[WinForPooh]

45 minutes ago, Xen said:

Um, does anyone have the new BV (unevenly reduced for quads) link?

I want to run hypos with it with imaginary layouts, and see how the new min/maxing works.

@LadyLou : I've done math and posted it in the other place. I had 4 hypothetical skaters: Skater A who had 4-5 quad varieties, Skater B who had no quads, skater C who only had 4T and 4S, and skater D who had only 4Lz and 4F (not in combo, not backloaded). Skater D was the only one who could approach skater A for TES scores in the end from jumps, that scared me quite a bit. If you think about it, now with limiting quads and backloading bonuses, you really could win with just 4Lz, 4F and 4Lo/4T/4S, and 4Lz and 4F are the most crucial jumps. =/

This one?

 

https://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/documents-communications/isu-communications/17142-isu-communication-2168/file

 

[katonice]

3 hours ago, LadyLou said:

I'm kind of accepting the "only last jump in SP get bonus" because, after all, skaters are all able to do more than one jump after 2 minutes into the FS, so it is "reasonable" that it's not that much more phisically exahusting to do 2 jumps in 2nd half (tho then one would ask why only a few do that) but I find the max 3 in the FS ridiculous.

If you want to limit backloading, which apparently is the Worst Thing Ever and deserving to be prevented ASAP despite being still a rarity in Ladies's and completely non-existent in Men's, the Canadian proposal made much much much more sense, while still allowing skaters decent freedom with their layouts (freedom in the sense they have multiple strategies to garner around the same points, but 4-3 is what basically everyone can already do why should anyone want to challenge 3-4 or 2-5 if there is all to lose in doing that?

 

Exactly this. 4+3, and even to some degree 2+1, is something mostly everyone is already doing right now anyway. Because there's only so many ways you can cram all your jumps in a program, short of doing them all upfront. So I fail to see what's so special about this rule now. 

[Xen]

17 minutes ago, WinForPooh said:

This one?

 

https://www.isu.org/docman-documents-links/isu-files/documents-communications/isu-communications/17142-isu-communication-2168/file

 

Thank you, bookmarking because I really want to see what I can score with +3 GOEs if I do layout hypos.

I'm thinking of starting off with :

A: 4Lz3T 4F 4Lo 3A//4T2T 3A-lo-3S 3Lz

B: 3Lz3T 3F 3Lo 3A//4T2T 4S 3A-lo-3S

C: 4Lz2T 4F 3A 3Lo// 3A-Lo-3S 3Lz3T 3Lz

 

As for the 1/3 thingy with backloading, elsewhere there are vivid debates about what skaters will do. *sigh* I think most skaters will do the following:

SP: 3A/2A  Solo jump//combo jump, especially if steps is still a requirement, but watch that combo jump happen right when we pass the second half mark.

LP: 3-4 jumps (4 if you want the safety of having a jump pass to save potential missed combos) right as the second half starts.

 

And then people will wonder, hmm, after the first 20-40 seconds of the second half in the LP, why are we seeing only spins and chSq?  It's less risky for stamina if you don't go beyond the max 4 jumps needed to secure your bonus, and for stamina purposes why would you want to push your jumps beyond the initial part of the second half? It's not like you get rewarded (or penalized) for it. Besides, why does music get edited?

 

[moonkat]

1 hour ago, WinForPooh said:

By now, I wouldn't even be surprised if Japan introduced an emergency proposal to introduce slo-mo replay to distinguish pre-rotation, to go with everything else. _{(I wish somebody would.)}

 

ISU's fear of technology and insistence on perfect procedure (because priorities) might be all that's stopping Japan fed from shooting themselves in the foot. Feet, both of them.

please

[Yuzuspiration]

5 minutes ago, moonkat said:

please

RIP Shoma if this happened

[WinForPooh]

44 minutes ago, Xen said:

Thank you, bookmarking because I really want to see what I can score with +3 GOEs if I do layout hypos.

I'm thinking of starting off with :

A: 4Lz3T 4F 4Lo 3A//4T2T 3A-lo-3S 3Lz

B: 3Lz3T 3F 3Lo 3A//4T2T 4S 3A-lo-3S

C: 4Lz2T 4F 3A 3Lo// 3A-Lo-3S 3Lz3T 3Lz

 

As for the 1/3 thingy with backloading, elsewhere there are vivid debates about what skaters will do. *sigh* I think most skaters will do the following:

SP: 3A/2A  Solo jump//combo jump, especially if steps is still a requirement, but watch that combo jump happen right when we pass the second half mark.

LP: 3-4 jumps (4 if you want the safety of having a jump pass to save potential missed combos) right as the second half starts.

 

And then people will wonder, hmm, after the first 20-40 seconds of the second half in the LP, why are we seeing only spins and chSq?  It's less risky for stamina if you don't go beyond the max 4 jumps needed to secure your bonus, and for stamina purposes why would you want to push your jumps beyond the initial part of the second half? It's not like you get rewarded (or penalized) for it. Besides, why does music get edited?

 

I don't think we'll see too many quad combos with the new rule. There are solo triples in all those layouts, wouldn't it be less risky to tack combo 3T/2T onto the triple, backloaded to get bonus on the combo? And we might see more 3A-Lo-3F. Shoma has done that the Lo-3F combo.

 

ETA: Sorry, this is OT. I don't know how to move it to gen skating after posting, though. 

[Nuitsuki]

33 minutes ago, WinForPooh said:

I don't think we'll see too many quad combos with the new rule. There are solo triples in all those layouts, wouldn't it be less risky to tack combo 3T/2T onto the triple, backloaded to get bonus on the combo? And we might see more 3A-Lo-3F. Shoma has done that the Lo-3F combo.

 

ETA: Sorry, this is OT. I don't know how to move it to gen skating after posting, though. 

Agree. 

In the old system skaters tend to do 3A- combo and quad combo because the subsequent jumps in the combo get the same coefficient for GOE as 3A/quad (1x), while for non-3A 3-3 the GOE coefficient is 0.7x. Now that thing has gone, I can see some skaters head towards doing 3-3 and quad solo to improve consistency. For example, under the new system, with the same raw GOE, 4T 3lz-3t would give the same score as 4T3T 3lz. 

 

The only reason they choose to do harder combo is because judges are more generous with ‘expensive’ elements (4lz and 4F combo, etc.)

[Xen]

15 minutes ago, Nuitsuki said:

Agree. 

In the old system skaters tend to do 3A- combo and quad combo because the subsequent jumps in the combo get the same coefficient for GOE as 3A/quad (1x), while for non-3A 3-3 the GOE coefficient is 0.7x. Now that thing has gone, I can see some skaters head towards doing 3-3 and quad solo to improve consistency. For example, under the new system, with the same raw GOE, 4T 3lz-3t would give the same score as 4T3T 3lz. 

 

The only reason they choose to do harder combo is because judges are more generous with ‘expensive’ elements (4lz and 4F combo, etc.)

So essentially the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and the PCS tie with difficulty doesn't go away. So solo 4Lz and 4F in the second half, with a 3A to end it?

[KatjaThera]

I'm far less technically savvy than many people here, but to me the one of each type of quad proposal sounds a lot like: "We're really annoyed Hanyu won Olys with just two types of quads when there are others who jump five types." And I tend to doubt he would have won if that rule had been in place. (He probably would have felt forced to go for 4Lo, too, which might have done even more damage to his ankle.) Because not only Nathan, but also Shoma would have been advantaged by it. And Javi might not have made the podium.

 

Overall, I'm pretty sure if the rule passes, it could go either way. Quads are risky and falls can happen (as well as other issues that would deduct points). So at times high quality two types of quads and high quality triples could beat 5 quads. However, if the quads are landed without anything too glaring, I'm not sure it'd be possible to win with two types of quads over five types. I haven't had time to fully go over the math they mentioned and see if there's any truth to it, but to me the biggest thing isn't so much the difference between quads, but between triples. A skater who can only do 2 types of quads will have to do 5 triple jump elements. Let's say two can be 3A, but the other 3 will have to be lower level triples. A skater who can do 4-5 types of quads, will have to do 2-3 triple jump elements. If two are 3A, that leaves just one lower level triple element. Combinations will probably be tacked onto quads and put at the end, which I think further increases the difference.

 

As far as Yuzu is concerned, maybe he'll get Loop and Lutz back and he'll be playing with the big boys, but it'd only create a bigger rift between quadsters and non-quadsters.

 

IMO, @Xen's suggestion for splitting the quads would make the most sense, if they really wanted to balance things out. Adding a bonus for doing one of each would also be good (maybe even a mini-bonus for 5 quads out of 6, and a mini-er for one of each triple). But like this...

 

What baffles me is that there's a gazillion proposals but few of them seem to really matter or make sense or make a difference. And when there are some big ones, the arguments are generally poor and poorly worded. To be honest, the arguments against the one of each type of quad proposal seemed pretty weak even to me. None of them was really "Huh, that guy really makes sense!" I was happy to hear people speak up against it and they had good points, but none was really great. (I did like Ari mentioning Nathan by name, even if it wasn't in a bad sense, not really.) But really, proposals and arguments could be a lot more clear and logical than they are >_<

 

As for JSF, from the little I heard in the sessions, I have to wonder if they don't have language barrier issues. I'm used to hearing Japanese speak English and still it was hard to understand them. That can be an issue when discussing things like this that are very much about fine-tuning and such. But yes, their judging and attitude is just weird a lot of the time. (I just hope they don't use them as the benchmark when they analyze the national bias among judges >_>)

[Nuitsuki]

1 minute ago, Xen said:

So essentially the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and the PCS tie with difficulty doesn't go away. So solo 4Lz and 4F in the second half, with a 3A to end it?

Solo 4lz/4f have higher BV than 3-3 combo so yes, i think many skaters will train that.

[Xen]

I don't know...I know the new GOE range is suppose to differentiate qualities more easily, but sometimes I wonder if a +5 is easier under the new GOE range. Don't remember the specifics of the required 3 bullet points to be considered for +5 GOE, but I do recall that nothing in them made me think quads (especially from large fed skaters) won't automatically get those tacked on.

 

To a degree, it might have made more sense to have a flat GOE score, not tied to BV to be added on if the goal is to equalize the triples and quads, and make quality triples matter as much as quads. A +5 GOE 3Lz could hit over 10 pts, which is higher than the current +50% BV. It could make good quality 3-3 combos a bit more enticing, and make 3A's repeated in program a very worthwhile goal.

[WinForPooh]

53 minutes ago, Xen said:

So essentially the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and the PCS tie with difficulty doesn't go away. So solo 4Lz and 4F in the second half, with a 3A to end it?

Quite possible.

 

But I don't know if they would really do that, because they can get bonus for backloading now too, and they still tend to do the higher difficulty quads first. Falls are penalised more - in PCS as well, though this will only disadvantage those who get 9.5-10 now, not many do, basically Yuzu/Javi - so even with the new proposals of reduced time, one jumping pass fewer, changed BV, would they really do it? Would they have the stamina to do it? 

 

If I were making a sensible layout for a four-quad skater, I'd still put two out of 4F, 4Lz and 4Lo in the beginning, whichever ones they really have, and I'd keep it solo. I'd have one 3A the first half as well, with steps and entry out of choreo sequence maybe, to really maximise the GOE, then have a 4S. For the second half, put a 3A in combo (possibly lo-3F/S), a 4T-2T/3T combo because more four-quad jumpers are very comfortable with 4T, and a 3Lz-3T/2T combo. Or maybe put the 4S in combo in the first half to not put pressure to land all combos in the second, or the 3A combo in the first half if they're not that solid with the 3A. But generally, I'd put the harder quads solo in the first half, then a less hard one in combo, then a 3A. Second half would have one easier quad with option of adding combo if it failed earlier, and two triple combos. 

 

Working with the proposals that were passed, that would be a more sensible layout than putting Lz/F in the second half when landing them would be really difficult. At the most, I'd put one of them in the second half. 

[Nuitsuki]

i hope ISU is ready to pay ALL the medals and prizes. I don’t want to see a cardboard of plastic stars

[Xen]

The most important, crucial showing of stand against national bias and corruption:

 

 

RIP

[Xen]

24 minutes ago, Nuitsuki said:

i hope ISU is ready to pay ALL the medals and prizes. I don’t want to see a cardboard of plastic stars

They don't understand digital formats of music, but they probably understand this thing called "twitter" and "mobile phones" -so for ultimate financial savings, all skaters will be required to submit their SNS for e-medals.

Then the ISU realizes they cannot agree on the media format of the e-medal and engages in an investigation into the relative merits of JPG format, versus TGA format, versus moving GIF formats and maybe TIFF formats, afterwards someone will get into the issue about copyrights and IP protection for the PSD files used in medal creation. There will be concerns about lawsuits regarding font type usage and whether the stock fonts with photoshop will be permissable.

They then run into problems when the CHN fed mentions that VPNs are not legally allowed in China, hence twitter usage becomes a problem, and all skaters need to have a weibo or wechat account to circumvent the fact twitter is banned in China, so CoC is an issue. Someone suggests that CoC is stopped, and instead becomes Cup of Asia, which creates problems as the chinese fed kindly reminds everyone where 2022 will be held.

Yuzu misses his e-medal by refusing to get an actual SNS account.