General Skating Chat

[moni]

48 minutes ago, Moria Polonius said:

Thank you for all the info, moni! My logic was , that if a 0.5 revolution loop is the euler, then why not 1.5 revolution? Not to connect to an axel, just as a connecting jump. I guess your point 3 answers that.

 

Aah, now I understand what you meant - we just interpreted the meaning of "1.5 euler" differently. 

This jump is called half loop or euler but it actually has one full rotation, not just half.  So I took it literally and understood it as a jump with 1.5 rotations - therefore those points about landing forwards.

But you meant a double euler, right (with landing backwards)? There's that rule about non-listed jumps but technically that could be possible (but very difficult) to do. But rules needs to be changed for that.

[SSS]

7 hours ago, moni said:

 

There's this rule: "A jump with more than 2 revolutions is called and counted. The Choreo Sequence ends the moment this jump is executed."

So probably the only way is doing it at the end of choreo sequence after landing all 8 jumping passes. It's definitely not worth doing it. However, the delayed single axel would be nice to see.

So delayed single axel can be anywhere and not counted??

[moni]

52 minutes ago, SSS said:

So delayed single axel can be anywhere and not counted? ?

 

In long program it can be in choreo sequence or after all 8 jumping passes are done (e.g. as a transition into spin). In other cases it will be counted as a jump attempt. And in short program it can be in step sequence but skater will get reduced GOE for that (LOL) or after all 3 jumping passes are done.

 

Spoiler

Rule about choreo sequence:

Listed single and double jumps included in the Choreographic Sequence will not be called and will not occupy an element’s box.

 

Rule about jumps in step sequence: 

Listed jumps with more than half revolution will be ignored in SP as an element, but will force the Judges to reduce GOE by 1 grade for “Listed jumps with more than ½ rev. included”. Listed jumps can be included in the step sequence of the FS, will be identified and will occupy jumping boxes.

 

Rule about extra jumps:

All extra jumps are called and marked with an *. The jumps are considered in the order of execution.

 

source

 

[Moria Polonius]

5 hours ago, moni said:

 

Aah, now I understand what you meant - we just interpreted the meaning of "1.5 euler" differently. 

This jump is called half loop or euler but it actually has one full rotation, not just half.  So I took it literally and understood it as a jump with 1.5 rotations - therefore those points about landing forwards.

But you meant a double euler, right (with landing backwards)? There's that rule about non-listed jumps but technically that could be possible (but very difficult) to do. But rules needs to be changed for that.

 

Thanks again moni, the question of the euler and the rules is becoming more clear to this clueless philistine!

[Aotoshiro]

On 9.09.2017 at 1:42 AM, moni said:

 

In long program it can be in choreo sequence or after all 8 jumping passes are done (e.g. as a transition into spin). In other cases it will be counted as a jump attempt. And in short program it can be in step sequence but skater will get reduced GOE for that (LOL) or after all 3 jumping passes are done.

 

  Hide contents

Rule about choreo sequence:

Listed single and double jumps included in the Choreographic Sequence will not be called and will not occupy an element’s box.

 

Rule about jumps in step sequence: 

Listed jumps with more than half revolution will be ignored in SP as an element, but will force the Judges to reduce GOE by 1 grade for “Listed jumps with more than ½ rev. included”. Listed jumps can be included in the step sequence of the FS, will be identified and will occupy jumping boxes.

 

Rule about extra jumps:

All extra jumps are called and marked with an *. The jumps are considered in the order of execution.

 

source

 

Actually, isn't there a rule that only easy, unnamed jumps can be a part of choreo/steps? So, if Yuzu go all:"include 3A in my choreo, it's an easy jump" everything he'll do after that jump will be counted towards transitions and not Choreo requirements, resulting in a serious drop in GOE, if this is stsq situation, as it needs to have required ice coverage?

 

Also, single axel into a spin a' la 3A-messy-landing-covered-as-a-twizzle-into-spin? Though I'm not sure if this'll cover creative/difficult entry bullet (don't remember if this changed for spins, too) XD

[moni]

20 minutes ago, Aotoshiro said:

Actually, isn't there a rule that only easy, unnamed jumps can be a part of choreo/steps? So, if Yuzu go all:"include 3A in my choreo, it's an easy jump" everything he'll do after that jump will be counted towards transitions and not Choreo requirements, resulting in a serious drop in GOE, if this is stsq situation, as it needs to have required ice coverage?

 

Also, single axel into a spin a' la 3A-messy-landing-covered-as-a-twizzle-into-spin? Though I'm not sure if this'll cover creative/difficult entry bullet (don't remember if this changed for a spins, too) XD

 

Here we were talking only about delayed single axel which is allowed in choreo sequence.  But you are correct that 3A can't be in choreo/step sequnces. 

 

I didn't mean 1A to be a difficult entry, just part of a transition into a spin... for example in Seimei he did 3Lz and then immediately death drop... there are million others ways, transition into spin was just my idea   

[cirelle]

Have you guys seen the Icenetwork article on the (pre) propsals for lowered BVs? http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206

[kitsune]

6 minutes ago, cirelle said:

Have you guys seen the Icenetwork article on the (pre) propsals for lowered BVs? http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206

I really do not like this .

[Princess Murasaki]

1 hour ago, cirelle said:

Have you guys seen the Icenetwork article on the (pre) propsals for lowered BVs? http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206

 

I really do not get ISU at all... 

[Lunna]

16 минут назад, cirelle сказал:

Have you guys seen the Icenetwork article on the (pre) propsals for lowered BVs? http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206

 

Цитата

Another change may include replacing the current short program and free skate with what would effectively be an athletic program and an artistic program. Each would award full medals in events like the Olympics and the world championships, and there also would be a full medal for the all-around winner.

And that maybe a moment when I'll stop watching FS cuz it's always been a compilation of artisty and technique (can't even imaging how they will judge "artistic program").

Regarding lowering jumping BV - the hardest jumps will loose the most so there will be not so much point to do a 4Lz if you can't land it, but will it be fair to those who can? And poor 4A 

Anyway what FS needs is proper judging, but who cares really? Little quads - let's make a higher BV, too many quads - let's make lower BV - it's simplier isn't it?

Цитата

Brian Orser, who coaches world champions Hanyu and Fernández, also thinks a shorter program will make it more difficult to display the sport's ideal: a "total package."

"You will have to be a very good skater to manage doing all the elements and have a program with attention to transitions, choreography, meaning and cohesiveness," Orser said. "It's going to be very difficult physically, even for top skaters, to do this. And I have junior men who tell me it is easier to do a senior long program (4 minutes, 30 seconds) than a junior program (four minutes)."

That concerns me too: there will be just no time to breath.

[Dori6886]

7 minutes ago, Princess Murasaki said:

 

I really do not get ISU at all... 

I think ISU do not get figure skating  

[yuzuangel]

53 minutes ago, cirelle said:

Have you guys seen the Icenetwork article on the (pre) propsals for lowered BVs? http://www.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206

lol the shade

 

Quote

 

"I see where they are going with this," Orser said. "They want the greatest all-around skater to be champion, not just the guy who did the quad flip and quad lutz and racked up points that way."

 

Orser said he needed more time to consider the idea of separate artistic and athletic programs.

 

"I want to be sure that you have to be able to do well in the artistic program, not just be flamboyant and roll around on the ice," he said.

 

I totally agree though, because artistry is hard af to define, when you have skaters like Adam Rippon (more flamboyant style) vs. Mao Asada (more introverted style) vs. whomever and whatever, and sometimes styles are very culturally polarizing as well.

[Valkyria]

Um, wow.

 

Seems like ISU's policy just flip-flops from one extreme to another depending on the current trend: complaints after Olys because the more difficult quads are not compensated enough vs triples? Here, have some bigger BV to prevent that. Unprecedented quad race because training jumps is the quickest way to the top? Let's bring those BV down again even though the quads are still significantly harder  

 

Have they even though about maaaybe taking a look at the PCS? You know, if you want the TES and PCS to have a similar weight in the final score and the tech is rising, it might be a good idea to consider raising the components' ceiling so they stay more even to achieve the ideal of rewarding "the best all-round skater" or just work on the way your current rules are implemented to stop the quads' wow factor from automatically raising PCS, no biggie ¬¬

 

Don't get me started on the separating tech and artistry in two programs idea. That could so easily end up being a jumping contest first + laying the drama on thick without any regards to actual skating skills second. Isn't figure skating's whole thing to meld athleticism, skill and performance at the same time? *le sigh*

 

...I feel a bit like the "old man yells at cloud" meme.

[golden]

in my opinion this is just regression - the sport will stagnate if there is nothing advantageous to work for. pandering to purely pcs strong skaters and dismissing tes strong skaters, when a balance should be encouraged. in the article yuzu's name is mentioned, that his tes accounts for a higher percentage of his score than his pcs does, but can that be helped if there is a ceiling on pcs that he is already incredibly close to and hes giving a perfect technical performance too?  this is just creating another disparity but in the opposite direction to how it is now. in a few years time, there will be another plushenko/lysacek situation and they will raise the bv again.

[Princess Murasaki]

1 hour ago, Valkyria said:

 

Don't get me started on the separating tech and artistry in two programs idea. That could so easily end up being a jumping contest first + laying the drama on thick without any regards to actual skating skills second. Isn't figure skating's whole thing to meld athleticism, skill and performance at the same time? *le sigh*

 

 

Totally agree. The idea to separate artistic and athletic programs is too ridiculous. I really want to cry...