General Skating Chat

[Xen]

42 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I think the Shoma effect will wear off way sooner - starting next season, because of Olympics, and also because, like @Xen explained earlier, it is impossible to pre-rotate a good Lutz. Any tech panel knows this, and although they could close an eye on Shoma's Flip, they just won't be able to do the same thing for the Lutz. 

On the contrary, bringing in a 4Flutz might even play sorely for him on his scoring of the 4Flip or 4Loop. 

 

Thank you for the information on the Base Value. Now I know for sure adding this 4Flutz will be a very, very dumb decision, both on Shoma's team part and Shoma himself. 

Well I think and say that, but guys like to prove me wrong so meh.....

If it's called, yes it's a dumb decision, but then again sometimes you're so desperate that dumb decisions are considered rational. Though isn't Shoma going up against Patrick for Skate Canada, so who knows, it might get called there? 

[Joey]

1 hour ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Meoima! Don't run away! 

 

Now I'm wondering, scoring wise... what happens if Shoma brings the 4Flutz into his layout? What happens if it gets called/signaled/everything, how much is the penalty, -3GOE?

(I would avoid bringing it just for the reputation at stake. Shoma must know that many federations might decide to attack his jumps to promote their own athletes, there's no mercy during Olympic year!)

 

Depends on the specific call. As someone who has been critical of the rotation of his 4flip since forever, I really doubt he will now get any call in that regard on his lutz equivalent. The edge is another issue. I think most of the time Shoma got !'s on his 3Lz last season, which only means GOE reduction, it doesn't even have to be negative. It really wouldn't do him much harm. If he gets a "e" however, it's 30% less of BV, and given the big BVs quads have, that is quite the point loss (13.6 to 9.5). It would also mean automatic negative GOE, although I don't think it's necessarily -3 (man, I've gotten so rusty over the off season!). So I guess a 4Lze that is otherwise fine would get him around 8 points. It's a gamble - if he gets a !, he gets a lot of points of out it, if he gets an "e", he loses quite a lot (although he still gets the same points a reeeeaaaally great 3Lz.... another part I don't like about CoP, honestly).

Personally, I think the majority of his lutzes last season were clear "e"s, even if they weren't called as such. The 4Lz here is too. Even if he is trying really hard to rework his lutz edge, I don't think it is humanly possible to go from 3Lze to 4Lz in one summer (maybe at all). Yuzu is a jumping prodigy with impeccable technique, yet it took him seasons to fix his 3F, and I still think any quad attempt would be an otherwise pretty 4Lip. So I have to say I'm still confused as to what Shoma and his team are thinking. The 4S would look like a safer route too me.

 

Edit: that's what happens when you write super slowly while kind of working at the same time. Several people beat me to it

 

 

1 hour ago, Shyn08 said:

you know, I find it so incredibly amazing how you guys can see in that tiiiiny window of time a change in edge before the jump, as well as being able to spot prerotation. Ive been learning about it and can see the difference in slow mo but can never see it in real time no matter how many times I replay it . I need more time and practise..... 

 

You can also watch for the lean of the upper body and the curve the blade makes on the ice - personally, I'm looking for the latter. The lutz is usually approached on a long held outside edge (Shoma does this too here, therefor making a C curve over the ice). But before he takes off, he flips over to the inside edge (his body starts to lean to the inside too), shifting his weight and therefor overall creating more of an inverted S instead of staying on his C curve. That's when you know someone didn't hold his edge right.

 

[Eclair]

I just posted this on golden skate and I'll post it here, too:

 

Shoma advertising that he can jump a quad lutz just makes my head blow 

[edit: please don't speculate about skaters' intentions with an intention to criticize them ]

Now people will probably say, that I'm ust a petty Boyang fan who doesn't like shoma in the first place, but guess what, I even like Shoma's skating. I've watched his worlds performances multiples times because I loved them so much. But I was always against UR and flutzing and even though the ladies discipline is now a lost case, men's flutz were called more accurately. 

A quad that only has 3 revolutions in the air is a triple and should not get the points for a quad. And a quad that only 3 revolutions in the air because it has so much pre-rotation that the skater it forced to jump from the wrong edge (inside instead of outside) should get even lesser points than a triple.

 

 

[xeyra]

9 minutes ago, Eclair said:

I just posted this on golden skate and I'll post it here, too:

 

Shoma advertising that he can jump a quad lutz just makes my head blow 
 

 

Let me clarify something here: Shoma isn't advertising he can jump a 4Lz. Someone posted a video of him from a training session at Glacier Arena, that's it. That's not him advertising anything. 

[kaeryth]

But he is planning on it though...

 

 

[Eclair]

14 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Let me clarify something here: Shoma isn't advertising he can jump a 4Lz. Someone posted a video of him from a training session at Glacier Arena, that's it. That's not him advertising anything. 

 

Maybe not in this video, but he has already said that he wants to include the 4 lutz, see kaeryth's link. And jumping it at open skates,  practices or senior B's is basically advertising it, even if it's not himself posting the video of it. 

[Danibellerika]

17 minutes ago, Eclair said:

Now people will probably say, that I'm ust a petty Boyang fan who doesn't like shoma in the first place, but guess what, I even like Shoma's skating.

 

Yeah because at the end of the day, when you have a horse in the race (or two) that's the opponent of the very person you're criticizing that automatically excludes your opinions from being completely neutral to anybody but like-minded people, even if you have valid points. That's just fandom.  Shoma's playing the game how he can play the game and it isn't to please anybody but the panel handing him the scores.

 

And I'm pretty sure Shoma will bring this jump to the GPF since he's the hometown kid.  

 

 

 

 

[Xen]

On 8/15/2017 at 5:58 AM, Eclair said:

I just posted this on golden skate and I'll post it here, too:

 

Shoma advertising that he can jump a quad lutz just makes my head blow 

[edit: please don't speculate about skaters' intentions with an intention to criticize them ]

Now people will probably say, that I'm ust a petty Boyang fan who doesn't like shoma in the first place, but guess what, I even like Shoma's skating. I've watched his worlds performances multiples times because I loved them so much. But I was always against UR and flutzing and even though the ladies discipline is now a lost case, men's flutz were called more accurately. 

A quad that only has 3 revolutions in the air is a triple and should not get the points for a quad. And a quad that only 3 revolutions in the air because it has so much pre-rotation that the skater it forced to jump from the wrong edge (inside instead of outside) should get even lesser points than a triple.

 

 

...you baited me into tiptoeing into GS, and watch in awe as you managed to not cause a mini explosion there. 

That sounds like a viable strategy, but for one thing- if he brings it out so late, he might not have enough time to practice it to pull it off in actual competition yet. I also think it's possible he MUST bring it out at GPF at least- why, because there are too many guys fighting for momentum spots before Olys. We are forgetting there is a Vincent Zhou in the US wings too, who also has a 4F.  And at GPF, it is possible that Shoma might not get the edge call, but could get a ! and UR call. Both of which while not as severe, do set in motion the possibility of e call at Olympics. And both of which would hurt his BV versus Nate or Boyang.  

 

[Forcefield]

Yea, I'm sad the jmedia, isu and some fans are more excited by the race to acquire quads or who has more types in their arsenal than the beauty of the jumps' execution.

 

Like, Yuzu is already putting 5 quads in his program and even without the quad lutz as long as he does his clean and beautiful 4s, 4t and 3A I hope he gets his due and the judges realize that.

[Eclair]

2 minutes ago, Danibellerika said:

 

Yeah because at the end of the day, when you have a horse in the race (or two) that's the opponent of the very person you're criticizing that automatically excludes your opinions from being completely neutral to anybody but like-minded people, even if you have valid points. That's just fandom.  Shoma's playing the game how he can play the game and it isn't to please anybody but the panel handing him the scores.

 

And I'm pretty sure Shoma will bring this jump to the GPF since he's the hometown kid.  

 

 

 

I forgot that GPF will be in Japan and he'll be in his hometown .. OK, add GPF to the competitions where we'll see the 4flutz..

[CupidsBow]

Lol do you really think Shoma is sat somewhere evil cackling to himself because he can pre-rotate all his quads and get away with it? Like you think he is using bad technique strategically and just pretending to have an interest in fixing it? 

We can all agree his jumps need to be called more/get lower GOE/be addressed for iffy technique in general - his hardcore fans all know he's flutzing and should get edge calls whenever he adds it - but judging is on the judges and tech calls are on the tech panel. If he pre-rotates his jumps and rarely gets downgrades then, of course, he's not in a rush to fix it, but that doesn't mean he's building a strategy around pre-roating/using the wrong edge and never getting called on it, especially knowing his good luck with not getting jumps called won't last. Don't be so ridiculous.

[Eclair]

2 minutes ago, Xen said:

...you baited me into tiptoeing into GS, and watch in awe as you managed to not cause a mini explosion there. 

That sounds like a viable strategy, but for one thing- if he brings it out so late, he might not have enough time to practice it to pull it off in actual competition yet. I also think it's possible he MUST bring it out at GPF at least, where he might not get the edge call, but could get a ! and UR call. Both of which while not as severe, do set in motion the possibility of e call at Olympics. And both of which would hurt his BV versus Nate or Boyang.  

 

Danibellerika just reminded me that GPF will be in shoma's hometown, so yes, I totally agree with you that we'll probably see it at GPF, but I'm willing to bet that he won't get an edge call

[Eclair]

1 minute ago, CupidsBow said:

Lol do you really think Shoma is sat somewhere evil cackling to himself because he can pre-rotate all his quads and get away with it? Like you think he is using bad technique strategically and just pretending to have an interest in fixing it? 

We can all agree his jumps need to be called more/get lower GOE/be addressed for iffy technique in general - his hardcore fans all know he's flutzing and should get edge calls whenever he adds it - but judging is on the judges and tech calls are on the tech panel. If he pre-rotates his jumps and rarely gets downgrades then, of course, he's not in a rush to fix it, but that doesn't mean he's building a strategy around pre-roating/using the wrong edge and never getting called on it, especially knowing his good luck with not getting jumps called won't last. Don't be so ridiculous.

well I have yet to see one video of him training on correcting his lutz edge after he said last season that he's trying to fix it. Just one video of him jumping a triple lutz with a true edge. 

Instead I see him jumping a 4flutz, so to me it's kind of obvious that he didn't use much time and energy to correct his edge (which would be kind of unwise to do in the olympic season anyways), but mostly trained the 4flutz as this will bring him points. 

But excuse me if I don't like shortcuts like this and don't think it should get the same amount one points as really rotated jumps. 

[kaeryth]

I am curious about him and his team's strategy though because right now (from my perspective)  it doesn't look like they're looking at the big picture in terms of long term goals. If he does bring in that 4Lze, then they are basically banking on him either not getting called or having the same calls as his 3Lze last season where he mostly just got (!) and that's pretty much a gamble - one it seems, that they're willing to take.

[CupidsBow]

1 minute ago, Eclair said:

well I have yet to see one video of him training on correcting his lutz edge after he said last season that he's trying to fix it. Just one video of him jumping a triple lutz with a true edge. 

Instead I see him jumping a 4flutz, so to me it's kind of obvious that he didn't use much time and energy to correct his edge (which would be kind of unwise to do in the olympic season anyways), but mostly trained the 4flutz as this will bring him points. 

But excuse me if I don't like shortcuts like this and don't think it should get the same amount one points as really rotated jumps. 

 

He maybe needs a boot up his ass and the judges maybe need to at least be consistent across all skaters with their leniency on certain things or (preferably) tighten up their judging and call things that need to be called but it is hilarious that you seem to think it's all part of his grand plan to 'cheat' his way to the top. He knows full well that when Yuzu goes clean, he goes flawless and when Shoma goes clean he's squeaking by on iffy technique. He knows that even with a 4lz (e - called or not) he won't beat a clean Yuzuru. He knows he has to work on his jump technique.

If he wins over Hanyu on an occasion where Yuzu hasn't made a string of costly errors, sure get mad, but Shoma isn't some evil mastermind trying to cheat anyone. He's never been a strong jumper and rushed to get quads, picking up some bad habits and bad technique that needs to be smoothed out but in his mind now probably isn't the time, seeing how it's the Olympic season and at least for now he's landing his dodgy quads with little repercussions, trying to upheave his technique would completely mess with all of his jumps and he'd see a huge drop in consistency before he sees any improvement. It's a job to deal with the next Olympic cycle, especially since he's not suffering much point-wise from his poor technique - but that is on the judges and it's ISU's/the judges' job to adjust the judging to be fair.

 

It's fine to not like 'shortcuts' and to criticise Shoma's technique but suggesting he's building some plot and getting judges on side to never call his edges or UR is ridiculous.