General Skating Chat

[kaeryth]

Re: Shoma. I get why he'll do it (BV wise and strategy wise - since he doesn't seem to get called out enough for him to consider not putting it in) but I'll be sorely disappointed. So now I'm praying judges and tech panel do their job and call things correctly. Again, I'm asking why Pyeongchang seems to be the be all end all for these youngsters... except, apparently, Boyang (don't let me down Boyangman!).

[CupidsBow]

2 minutes ago, meoima said:

Apparently I assure you, some flawed jumps with PR and UR can be obvious in real time if you are sitting in the ice level which the tech specialists have always been... and the hook mark on the ice is very obvious. 

 

Enough for now, I gotta run...

 

yes, and when it is obvious it should be called. No one disagrees with that.  

[xeyra]

3 hours ago, meoima said:

I am glad you miss me. But I just can not stand people who have no clue about skating who go around counting BV and think that fake technique can be fixed in a summer. Now we have clear evidence of how much it can be "fixed". I will just ran away. 

 

Since I feel like this is directed at me given our previous discussion and the BV mention,  I know I don't understand FS as much as you do but I never actually said I thought Shoma would fix his edge in a summer? I said he will and should be marked for a Flutz if he Flutzes his 4Lz in competition, same as he did in this practice clip. Just saying he's trying to work on his edge doesn't mean one thinks he's going to miraculously fix it in a few sessions in the summer, just means I'm glad he's not being lazy and not even trying. 

[Xen]

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

 

Since I feel like this is directed at me given our previous discussion and the BV mention,  I know I don't understand FS as much as you do but I never actually said I thought Shoma would fix his edge in a summer? I said he will and should be marked for a Flutz if he Flutzes his 4Lz in competition, same as he did in this practice clip. Just saying he's trying to work on his edge doesn't mean one thinks he's going to miraculously fix it in a few sessions in the summer, just means I'm glad he's not being lazy and not even trying. 

 Considering that judges haven't been too hard on wrong edges usually, I think it's more reasonable to not count edge calls or UR when calculating out BV. And if politics does get involved, they might be harsher this season. And now that I think about it, it is nice to know that Yuzu's scores are not that impacted by judge/tech panel generosity ( lack thereof usually). I'm still a bit awed that even with a more conservative layout, Yuzu's scores are still that high.

 

Can't wait to see Seimei....

[xeyra]

5 minutes ago, Xen said:

 Considering that judges haven't been too hard on wrong edges usually, I think it's more reasonable to not count edge calls or UR when calculating out BV. And if politics does get involved, they might be harsher this season. And now that I think about it, it is nice to know that Yuzu's scores are not that impacted by judge/tech panel generosity ( lack thereof usually). I'm still a bit awed that even with a more conservative layout, Yuzu's scores are still that high.

 

Can't wait to see Seimei....

 

Yeah, all these BV speculations are done with planned or speculated possible BVs. The real BV will be the one that's obtained on the day, through levels and jump calls. Just because one has the potential for 122 BV, like Nathan with 7-quads, doesn't mean he'll get 122 BV. But if you're speculating and doing fun math, then you can't count that he'll pop a quad or get an edge call or fail his step sequence levels in your calculations. 

[Shyn08]

you know, I find it so incredibly amazing how you guys can see in that tiiiiny window of time a change in edge before the jump, as well as being able to spot prerotation. Ive been learning about it and can see the difference in slow mo but can never see it in real time no matter how many times I replay it . I need more time and practise..... 

[Murieleirum]

6 hours ago, meoima said:

Is this Shoma's "4lz" https://livebarn.com/videoshare?locale=en_ca&vid=3 ?H5d2N4Bz0SBgikU1NXi7aRjZhvTc_2Fhxl34fxJ2VJJaCPitv6vsNliVOkYp_2FWRYfHW7Y_2F12Kh9GNqBJuVRhuimb_2FERASbBhOGaMVC475aQamOzBg16kQIKk_2B_2B_2Fa4632u3lm1C5rMWjtr9h_2FKM44qVymlwg_2B9BOsX&dt=2017-08-14T13%3A29&t=1488072.109728&d=30000

 

It's a FLUTZ clear as daylight. And I am not talking about the pre-rotation yet. The edge is so clear a flutz so I am looking at people who claimed that Shoma would have a true 4lz and enjoying popcorn. 

 

Do you think USFA and other specialists will let the cheated edge go when they have Nathan and Boyang who jump true quad Lutz out there? I laugh a bit at people who think you can fix a Flutz in a summer. 

 

 

 

Meoima! Don't run away! 

 

Now I'm wondering, scoring wise... what happens if Shoma brings the 4Flutz into his layout? What happens if it gets called/signaled/everything, how much is the penalty, -3GOE?

(I would avoid bringing it just for the reputation at stake. Shoma must know that many federations might decide to attack his jumps to promote their own athletes, there's no mercy during Olympic year!)

[Smultron]

This thread has been making me think about critique in figure skating. It makes me so sad that people feel offended by the way other skaters are discussed, especially when it comes to jump technique. By this logic jumps shouldn't be discussed at all? Since when discussing a skater's technique is automatically classified as bashing and hating?   

Sorry, this is really random, I'm just very confused at the moment  I love your discussions and they make me learn so much and I've never seen them as "bashing" but apparently that's not the case for everyone 

 

Disclaimer: I love Shoma, a lot  But I've never felt offended by what other people have to say about his problematic jumps   

(edit: okay, later today some stuff actually made me sad here  ) 

[Xen]

40 minutes ago, Shyn08 said:

you know, I find it so incredibly amazing how you guys can see in that tiiiiny window of time a change in edge before the jump, as well as being able to spot prerotation. Ive been learning about it and can see the difference in slow mo but can never see it in real time no matter how many times I replay it . I need more time and practise..... 

I would suggest pausing the video when you see the skater take off. A lutz, other than an edge difference with a flip, should have a very clear, clean takeoff. You can check the video from Tom Z above. For male skaters, there should be no pre-rotation possible if you are on the right edge. Unlike a flip, there is pretty much no pivoting on the right toepick involved (there is a little for the flip). Also on youtube, Tom Z also did a video where he shows the difference between the Flip and the Lutz, where he mentions that on a lutz, your toepicks are the last part of the blade to leave the ice. Whereas for a flip, Tom Z mentions that the left foot's heel is the last bit to leave the ice.  If you look at Shoma's lutz versus Yuzu's, or Nate's or Boyang's, you'll notice that the last part of his left foot to leave the ice is the heel (his heel is pointed downwards), while the other guys clearly have their toes pointed downwards.

 

In some ways, in Shoma's case in particular,  the pre-rotation and the wrong edge come hand-in-hand. I don't recall where I heard this- but a cause of wrong edge in lutz is a skater waiting too long on the outside edge to jump. When it switches to the inside edge, your body would need to compensate for the balance  and that would then lead to the pre-rotation (pivot) on the picking foot to get any momentum upwards and prevent the body from falling. This would then affect jump height, distance, in air axis, landing etc. Not sure if this is helpful or not? 

 

My question with regards to Shoma is, is his motivation to try to fix his jumps due to himself being aware? Or is his team pushing him regardless of his awareness?  If it's just him alone, well good for him, and a giant headdesk for his team. 

[sallycinnamon]

1 hour ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Meoima! Don't run away! 

 

Now I'm wondering, scoring wise... what happens if Shoma brings the 4Flutz into his layout? What happens if it gets called/signaled/everything, how much is the penalty, -3GOE?

(I would avoid bringing it just for the reputation at stake. Shoma must know that many federations might decide to attack his jumps to promote their own athletes, there's no mercy during Olympic year!)

 

The BV of 4Lz is 13.6.

In case of an edge call the BV is 9.5.  (if it's not clear edge, then the original BV is allowed but the GOE is usually reduced).

In case of both an edge call and underrotation, the BV is 8.4

+count on the negative GOE or deductions as well (which can be from -1.2 to -4.0 overall).

 

And if a 4Lz gets downgraded then then the BV would be the same as for 3Lz, which is 6.0.

 

So if a skater has good technique with no edge problems and URs, it is worth to bring in the 4Lz; if he has edge calls AND URs then it is not worth it.

[CupidsBow]

31 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Meoima! Don't run away! 

 

Now I'm wondering, scoring wise... what happens if Shoma brings the 4Flutz into his layout? What happens if it gets called/signaled/everything, how much is the penalty, -3GOE?

(I would avoid bringing it just for the reputation at stake. Shoma must know that many federations might decide to attack his jumps to promote their own athletes, there's no mercy during Olympic year!)

 

If he attempts a 4lz and gets the full bv, its 13.6 points

4lz e is bv 9.5 and -2 goe (I think?)  so like 7.1 points

4lz< e would have the bv knocked down to 8.4 and -3 goe (i think)  so 4.4 points

 

so if he were to get called on his edge and his UR the attempt wouldn't be worth the effort. he'd be better off with an okay triple.

 

Honestly, I think as the novelty wears off the 4lz/4f/4los we'll see the errors being called more consistently. I get the feeling the judges are being sort of lenient because they're impressed by the attempt. that will wear off as they become more common place/

 

 

 

[Murieleirum]

2 minutes ago, CupidsBow said:

4lz e is bv 9.5 and -2 goe (I think?)  so like 7.1 points

4lz< e would have the bv knocked down to 8.4 and -3 goe (i think)  so 4.4 points

 

so if he were to get called on his edge and his UR the attempt wouldn't be worth the effort. he'd be better off with an okay triple.

 

Honestly, I think as the novelty wears off the 4lz/4f/4los we'll see the errors being called more consistently. I get the feeling the judges are being sort of lenient because they're impressed by the attempt. that will wear off as they become more common place/

 

I think the Shoma effect will wear off way sooner - starting next season, because of Olympics, and also because, like @Xen explained earlier, it is impossible to pre-rotate a good Lutz. Any tech panel knows this, and although they could close an eye on Shoma's Flip, they just won't be able to do the same thing for the Lutz. 

On the contrary, bringing in a 4Flutz might even play sorely for him on his scoring of the 4Flip or 4Loop. 

 

Thank you for the information on the Base Value. Now I know for sure adding this 4Flutz will be a very, very dumb decision, both on Shoma's team part and Shoma himself. 

[CupidsBow]

4 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I think the Shoma effect will wear off way sooner - starting next season, because of Olympics, and also because, like @Xen explained earlier, it is impossible to pre-rotate a good Lutz. Any tech panel knows this, and although they could close an eye on Shoma's Flip, they just won't be able to do the same thing for the Lutz. 

On the contrary, bringing in a 4Flutz might even play sorely for him on his scoring of the 4Flip or 4Loop. 

 

Thank you for the information on the Base Value. Now I know for sure adding this 4Flutz will be a very, very dumb decision, both on Shoma's team part and Shoma himself. 

 

I would be a bit surprised if judging gets harsher around olympics because those big scores sure do make headlines and get attention, something the isu and the olympics comittee will want to promote the sport and the olympics.

the season after pyeongchang though? yeah i see judging getting harsher, hopefully with tech panel calls and the pcs corridor getting closed.

I like Shoma, I enjoyed his programs last season but I do want to see him improve his jump technique and break out of his comfort zone music/performance wise after pyeongchang

[sallycinnamon]

5 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

Thank you for the information on the Base Value. Now I know for sure adding this 4Flutz will be a very, very dumb decision, both on Shoma's team part and Shoma himself. 

 

I say it in general and it's just my opinion but if judging is fair and someone has issues with edges on the lutz then it shouldn't be worth to have a 4Lz.

[xeyra]

1 hour ago, Murieleirum said:

Now I'm wondering, scoring wise... what happens if Shoma brings the 4Flutz into his layout? What happens if it gets called/signaled/everything, how much is the penalty, -3GOE?

(I would avoid bringing it just for the reputation at stake. Shoma must know that many federations might decide to attack his jumps to promote their own athletes, there's no mercy during Olympic year!)

 

A 4Flz(e) is worth 9.50 BV and -3 GOE, compared to a 4Lz with 13.60 BV. If it's 4Lz! (unclear edge), it keeps the BV but should get negative GOE (-2/-3).

 

Edit: NVM, @sallycinnamon already answered.