General Skating Chat

[Valkyria]

1 minute ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

I never quite got why he chose to do that. S'not like Chan can't jump a beautiful 4T himself...

 

And not sure if this has been raised before and I've just missed it but this difficult and creative entry/exit thing..maybe it's time they consider rephrasing that rule? Because Hanyu's back counter entry into his 3A is probably really not all that difficult for him anymore. And he's done it so many times now that it's  no longer creative. I mean if they're not going to award him the points for it based on that judgement, it won't be fair to award others for it as when, if they were to try it, they'd look a lot more labored and thus it'd be a lot less pretty than the way Hanyu does it. Moreover, it won't be new either. Come to think of it, does anyone else do it but Hanyu? Cos I heard he's able to pull off nice entries and exits for his 3A  more effortlessly cos of the particular way he jumps his Axel, which seemingly no one else in the field--nay, sport seems to be doing but him? I know others are doing the SE but what of the BC?

 

Anyway, the only reason it's even easy for him to pull off this particular stunt now is due to the sheer amount of effort he's put into honing it when he was younger so if they're awarding others points for effort, it wouldn't be fair to not give him the marks today for all the time and sweat he's invested into it before, which clearly, others haven't. 

 

So maybe they revise difficult into say, impressive and give points according to how effortless it looks, or just simply list out the existing techniques according to difficulty level and how effortlessly they are executed and only award separate points for creativity for entries/exits that are actually completely original? I dunno...the way it is now may have worked before but it just seems iffy now that Hanyu has set the bar so high.

 

Entries like Yuzuru's back counter are technically difficult no matter how much mastery of it one shows, so they should be still considered so and rewarded accordingly here's me side-eyeing the not +3 GOE for LGC's 3A ¬¬   The problem comes more with the "creative " part, imo: it's very open to interpretation, since a skater could be doing a lot of (simpler, but more eye-catching) choreo into a jump and have it rewarded the same as a truly difficult entry. And in that case, why make the effort of going for the more complicated entries?

[cirelle]

12 minutes ago, kaeryth said:

Just an observation... but it seems that the people that motivate him the most are Patrick and Boyang? I haven't heard him talk about being pumped up/motivated with regards to other skaters. (Also, people cheering for another skater before it's his turn to skate.. haha)

 

And Jason Brown artistically, I think, after WTT.

[axelsandwich]

35 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

I'm sure losing to Nathan at 4CC motivated him also. 

I think he's always motivated after losing to someone but he tends to be motivated by others based on specific qualities he admires/wants to steal lol (Javi's 4S, Patrick's skating skills and dominance, Boyang's Lutz technique and triggering the quad era). I've seen him praise Shoma's consistency and Jason's artistry too. In particular, I think he appreciates people who push the sport forward like Patrick and Boyang (I lowkey adore how he credits Boyang for starting the quad era and the impression Boyang made on him at NHK).

 

It is a shame that Yuzu's insanely difficult transitions aren't as 'performative' or apparent to a casual viewer - you kind of have to get into the technical side to appreciate the edges as most people still tend to look at the upper body. 

 

I think he does tough transitions even when he doesn't get much of a reward in pts because he's always chasing after his own 'ideal' skate, and refuses to simplify his routine even when he may achieve the same result in a less complex/taxing way (or he's just used to the entry now lol). 

[Forcefield]

3 minutes ago, kaerb said:

I think he's always motivated after losing to someone but he tends to be motivated by others based on specific qualities he admires/wants to steal lol (Javi's 4S, Patrick's skating skills and dominance, Boyang's Lutz technique and triggering the quad era). I've seen him praise Shoma's consistency and Jason's artistry too.

 

It is a shame that Yuzu's insanely difficult transitions aren't as 'performative' or apparent to a casual viewer - you kind of have to get into the technical side to appreciate the edges as most people still tend to look at the upper body. 

 

I think he does tough transitions even when he doesn't get much of a reward in pts because he's always chasing after his own 'ideal' skate, and refuses to simplify his routine even when he may achieve the same result in a less complex/taxing way (or he's just used to the entry now lol). 

It would be cool to see all the list of qualities Yuzu took from other skaters or that which motivated him to be such a complete skater that he is today - the boy has a good eye, sees and acknowledges the best qualities of others, and is a genius in making it his own. Case in point at younger age he also wanted to do 3A after seeing Mao? And he admires Yuna's ability to seamlessly add jumps to her programs. And then there's the Plushenko and Johnny Weir influence early on. Then the list goes on in his senior years.

[Valkyria]

1 minute ago, kaerb said:

It is a shame that Yuzu's insanely difficult transitions aren't as 'performative' or apparent to a casual viewer - you kind of have to get into the technical side to appreciate the edges as most people still tend to look at the upper body. 

 

I think he does tough transitions even when he doesn't get much of a reward in pts because he's always chasing after his own 'ideal' skate, and refuses to simplify his routine even when he may achieve the same result in a less complex/taxing way (or he's just used to the entry now lol). 

 

As you say, Yuzu will be Yuzu and he will keep all his difficult, complex skating because he wants to and downgrading is for cowards (the 3F is another thing, he needs those turns to keep the inside edge)

 

But it is a pity he doesn't get as much reward as he should for it: it's one thing for the casual audience to be oblivious (and yet, the moment you glance at a skater's feet you notice the difference, even if you don't know what the heck they're doing), but the judges should have the necessary knowledge to give GOEs and PCs accordingly. It's frustrating ¬¬

[Forcefield]

11 minutes ago, Valkyria said:

 

As you say, Yuzu will be Yuzu and he will keep all his difficult, complex skating because he wants to and downgrading is for cowards (the 3F is another thing, he needs those turns to keep the inside edge)

 

But it is a pity he doesn't get as much reward as he should for it: it's one thing for the casual audience to be oblivious (and yet, the moment you glance at a skater's feet you notice the difference, even if you don't know what the heck they're doing), but the judges should have the necessary knowledge to give GOEs and PCs accordingly. It's frustrating ¬¬

Cowards isn't the exact wording I would use or think Yuzu would use but yep it's so frustrating when I see even as a new fan how much he loves the sport that he's making big efforts to push FS forward but the judges are not rewarding it thus are not pushing other skaters forward too. Once Yuzu, you know what, will FS be nothing but a bland quad race if no one else steps forward? Edit: Well, not saying some of the guys aren't trying or that they don't have years ahead of them to try, but the judging is still the problem.

 

I read on GS the frustration of a poster who says it doesn't make sense why viewers get the benefit of multiple angles and slow mo but the judges don't. I agree. Like why would they blind side themselves like that? They should be in the more advanced position to judge with multiple resources to make good decisions, not us.

[Valkyria]

2 minutes ago, Forcefield said:

Cowards isn't the exact wording I would use or think Yuzu would use but yep it's so frustrating when I see even as a new fan how much he loves the sport that he's making big efforts to push FS forward but the judges are not rewarding it thus are not pushing other skaters forward too. Once Yuzu, you know what, will FS be nothing but a bland quad race if no one else steps forward?

 

I read on GS the frustration of a poster who says it doesn't make sense why viewers get the benefit of multiple angles and slow mo but the judges don't. I agree. Like why would they blind side themselves like that? They should be in the more advanced position to judge with multiple resources to make good decisions, not us.

 

I used "cowards" in jest. I don't really think downgrading is inherently bad and everyone has to take into account their personal circumstances, so. But still, not for Yuzuru XDD

 

The Skating world is sure to miss him when he r****s, regardless of whatever people want to think right now. His style might not be everyone's cup of tea and that's understandable, but one can't really argue against the fact that he's a technical prodigy who's been pushing at the limits of the sport for years and achieving amazing results. All of that is already a huge legacy to leave behind, even if he were to stop right now please don't, stay forever Yuzu 

Also, who's gonna bring in all the monies and publicity and new blood to the sport once he's gone? A superstar like him doesn't come around every year  

 

Regarding judges/tech panel and reviewing footage, I completely get the frustration. With so many advancements in technology one would expect the iSU would jump on the bandwagon and implement them, but nooo. They've been trying to make competition shorter for years, so no extra time alloted to review stuff ¬¬

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

45 分ぐらい, Forcefieldさんが言いました:

Cowards isn't the exact wording I would use or think Yuzu would use but yep it's so frustrating when I see even as a new fan how much he loves the sport that he's making big efforts to push FS forward but the judges are not rewarding it thus are not pushing other skaters forward too. Once Yuzu, you know what, will FS be nothing but a bland quad race if no one else steps forward? Edit: Well, not saying some of the guys aren't trying or that they don't have years ahead of them to try, but the judging is still the problem.

 

Sooo it's like we have Hanyu as the locomotive chugging along pulling the sport along a forward motion and the judges as the wind resistance holding it back? Good thing Hanyu's a bullet train locomotive then, so he's not so much chugging along as simply cutting through any and all resistance. >_<

[Murieleirum]

37 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

Sooo it's like we have Hanyu as the locomotive chugging along pulling the sport along a forward motion and the judges as the wind resistance holding it back? Good thing Hanyu's a bullet train locomotive then, so he's not so much chugging along as simply cutting through any and all resistance. >_<

 

I honestly believe we're not yet near to the Hanyu locomotive's final destination. We're somewhat in the middle of the journey. Sochi was the start (or maybe one of the first stops...) but Pyeongchang definitely isn't the finish line. I think, in these 4 years, more and more FS experts and judges and FS fans have jumped aboard on the Hanyu locomotive, and more people will do so in the future. Maybe, the locomotive will be the fullest after Yuzu r****s. 

It takes time, it takes years for a genius to be recognized by people. Already, Yuzuru's genius is pretty obvious, since he has conquered the hearts of millions with the way he skates. I want to think of the judges who still follow their own political agenda, or their own personal, superficial 'I prefer this one to this one', as people 'behind' their own times, people who can't recognize a masterpiece when it's drawn (or skated) right in front of them, a la Helsinki 2017. 

I'm not saying Yuzuru should win every time, because the scores have to be earned. But, again, when you're not sensitive enough to understand the difference between a clean program by Yuzuru and a clean program by a Nathan or a Shoma, and you give the same PCS somehow, or you give the same GOE somehow, then you really lack the heart it takes to recognize brilliance and genius into Yuzuru's skating. So, these kind of people will always exist in FS, but, in my opinion, they will be less and less, because a new generation is starting, a generation that will have Yuzuru as a role model, as a guidance. And pretty soon it will be clear to everyone that what Yuzuru brings on the ice comes from another Planet. 

 

Sorry, your locomotive metaphor really started something within me... 

[¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

15 時間前, Valkyriaさんが言いました:

 

As you say, Yuzu will be Yuzu and he will keep all his difficult, complex skating because he wants to and downgrading is for cowards (the 3F is another thing, he needs those turns to keep the inside edge)

 

Hmm...but isn't the complexity there because it's what's needed for him to weave all those jumps of his into the choreography? They contribute largely to the breezy and effortless effect of his jumps (when he nails them perfectly), no? I mean he wants them not just because they are challenging and he wants to prove he's the biggest man on ice (tho those are huge factors as well, I'm sure) but because they are what he needs for him to reach his ultimate goal of the ideal skate...right?

 

13 時間前, Murieleirumさんが言いました:

...So, these kind of people will always exist in FS, but, in my opinion, they will be less and less, because a new generation is starting, a generation that will have Yuzuru as a role model, as a guidance. 

 

Well, that'll largely depend on what they're skating for. If they are skating only for the sake of winning, then they'll probably prefer to take the shortest route there. And the shortest route Hanyu's path is not. If their ambition is beyond just winning and something far more sublime, then yes, they'll find Hanyu's path the more appealing. 

 

The older gen (those who are still around since Sochi) are likely skating for more than winning at this point of their careers, but their reasons aren't the same as Hanyu's. Most of the hotshots, so far, I'm only getting the superficial vibe of wanting to win and only to win. This was never the vibe I got from Hanyu when I saw his older videos when *he* was the hotshot breathing down Chan's neck and leaving purely artistic skaters like Brown and Rippon in the dust . There's always something beyond simply wanting to win in the way that he skates, despite his layouts that were formulated to give him the best chance to win. I don't get the same vibe from the young ones right now. If there's something else behind their skating, right now it's eclipsed by their hunger to simply. Beat. Hanyu. Maybe not all of them but definitely most of them. So whether or not the next gen will see the light and look up to Hanyu as a perfect example, will depend on whether or not he remains unbeaten by these hotshots. Because if he does, then he proves that his formula of becoming a complete skater is the ultimate rock solid winning formula. So it all comes down to not just how Hanyu performs this season, but how the die will roll in PC.

 

There's also the fact that those who truly aim for his path and goals have first gotta be born with at least a fraction of the unbudging perfectionism and insatiable hunger to evolve as Hanyu was because Hanyu isn't the way he is simply because he wants to be. He's the way he is because there's no other way he *can* be.

 

Still, I do agree with you that, win or lose, there's no doubt his path will shine a light upon others'. The legacy he's left even now is undeniable. But how doggedly future skaters will stick to their own ideals the way Hanyu stuck to his, will depend on how much stronger he can make it.

[Valkyria]

48 minutes ago, ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ said:

 

Hmm...but isn't the complexity there because it's what's needed for him to weave all those jumps of his into the choreography? They contribute largely to the breezy and effortless effect of his jumps (when he nails them perfectly), no? I mean he wants them not just because they are challenging and he wants to prove he's the biggest man on ice (tho those are huge factors as well, I'm sure) but because they are what he needs for him to reach his ultimate goal of the ideal skate...right?

 

I think we're trying to say the same thing with different approaches XD

 

Yuzuru doesn't need that level of complexity in between for the jumps to happen, but he wants it to achieve his ideal. And while his ideal entails a high level of difficulty that transfers to huge scores when he goes clean, I believe he'd still do things this way even if it didn't: he has a very clear picture in his head of how skating should be, a perfect meld of tech and skating skills and music, and he's always pursuing that. It's not an easy path, specially since it doesn't always pay off, but experience has proven that it's the only way he can be satisfied.

 

So yes, nobody's taking Yuzu's bazillion transitions and complicated set ups away from him, even if it would make his life (and ours, maybe?) easier 

[Yatagarasu]

22 hours ago, xeyra said:

 

Also, combinations don't get any higher BV if they're a harder combination. So, for example, a 4T3T is worth the same as a 3T4T, because they just sum up the Base Value of the individual jumps.

 

I cannot even being to explain how much this ticks me off, which is why I had to bring it back up. It's not even that difficult to have some kind of BV increase formula but no. So irritating. Especially when it comes to the ladies skating, considering that it is constrained so this type of thing would open up the field a little bit more. It'd benefit the men too of course, especially with the up and coming changes. I just don't get them. 

[xeyra]

1 hour ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

I cannot even being to explain how much this ticks me off, which is why I had to bring it back up. It's not even that difficult to have some kind of BV increase formula but no. So irritating. Especially when it comes to the ladies skating, considering that it is constrained so this type of thing would open up the field a little bit more. It'd benefit the men too of course, especially with the up and coming changes. I just don't get them. 

 

It is annoying. The fact a 3T3Lo combo is worth as much as a 3Lo3T, for example, is rather baffling considering how much harder it must be to rotate a 3Lo as the last jump in the combo. Much more likely for one to do the first than the second the second than the first, with no incentive for it. 

[Yatagarasu]

58 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

It is annoying. The fact a 3T3Lo combo is worth as much as a 3Lo3T, for example, is rather baffling considering how much harder it must be to rotate a 3Lo as the last jump in the combo. Much more likely for one to do the first than the second the second than the first, with no incentive for it. 

 

Indeed. I saw a few days ago Satoko doing a 2A-3Lo and of course, we've seen other attempts of that kind (Shoma tried 3A-4T I think?) but really why bother, apart from perhaps the prestige or if you're stuck so are trying to YOLO something. And yet it'd be so wonderful to start seeing all those combinations in actual competitions. I don't know, maybe the men's and the change of rules will get them going but at this point I am not optimistic, as it's hardly a new problem. 
I suppose the same goes for possibly opening up the ladies field even more so with an overhaul of allowed combinations. I guess they're waiting, and waiting, and waiting, to see that moment when the 3A and quads become more common. Snort. 

[yuzuangel]

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

 

It is annoying. The fact a 3T3Lo combo is worth as much as a 3Lo3T, for example, is rather baffling considering how much harder it must be to rotate a 3Lo as the last jump in the combo. Much more likely for one to do the first than the second the second than the first, with no incentive for it. 

Or just -3Lo combinations at all. The BV is higher but even so it's not worth it. Although there is the benefit of being able to repeat harder jumps instead of the -3T if you also have a -3Lo, a la Alina Zagitova (who repeats both the lutz and the flip so her BV is huge). I know Mao had such trouble rotating the -3Lo that the negative GOE and URs took away any BV advantage.

 

Speaking of which, I feel like I almost never see 3Lo3T combinations. I wonder if rotating a 3Lo as the first jump of a combination is hard too? I just recall Marin having a nice one.

 

And I wonder if we're gonna see some "half" loop combinations with a 2Lo or even a 3Lo. Could look beautiful.