General Skating Chat

[WinForPooh]

10 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

I LOVE that they added that to clarify, but it doesn't clarify anything. Masterful! 

And I wonder, does falling on the music cue interrupt the flow? Because I kinda love Yuzu's fall in gpf14 SP, so swishy, such a flow, so fitting the music  

More seriously, I guess techical mistakes on jump take off are not serious, since a casual viewer wouldn't be aware nor care (or is 'timing of the

jump not fitting the music' something that interrupts the integrity and flow? Whoa, all jumps with long preparation are serious errors then ).

I guess stumbles, falls, issues on jump landings (not UR tho, I think, unless it results in some other 'visible' mistake) would count, maybe a particularly ugly pop too?  lots of room for subjectivity, once again.

Tbh,  while in general I can agree a stumble makes performance worse, I don't think I would have liked to see olympic Seimei receive no more than 9 in PE and IN, and not because it's Yuzuru (well, maybe a bit of that too) but because I think it was one of his strongest Seimei ever, interpretation-wise. And while it is reasonable not to give that one the highest score possible, it's really annoying to see clean but much more shallow programs get the same score, just because of that.

And again, why should a couple stumbles on a jump landing mean otherwise outstanding SS shouldn't be rewarded as such? A landing can go wrong for reasons not related to the take off itself, that would be the only thing connected to SS (and if good SS and good jumps were really that related  

I would expect current Nathan and Boyang to have better SS than current Patrick...and current Jason would be one of the best quadsters out there)

And there are no GENERAL guidelines on how a 'serious error' affects PCS for all the skaters who are in the 0-9 range. How is it supposed to be fair for all skaters? (Of course, if judges had judged properly all this time, if they had NOT done things like awarding a personal best in PCS to a bombed program,  ISU wouldn't be doing this...but it's only judges's mentality and training that should be addressed)

 

EDIT:

as @Nenaah said, I think they wanted to say 'all positive features added can't be more than +2, before starting subtracting', meaning that with a negative feature worth -3 you would have at most +2+(-3)=-1, and e.g. with a fall the final GOE could be +2+(-5)=-3 at most (if it is indeed true GOE deduction for falls will be addedd to positive features).

For jumps and going by memory it's actually reasonable, since a jump with a issue on landing wouldn't hit any positive bullet for good landing, effortless and good flow. It could hit bullet for height&distance, bullet for creative entry and...matched to music? wait,  that would be a +3...I guess falls timed to the music won't get that bullet, after all 

Imo ISU is just trying to remind judges a two footed landing isn't effortless and doesn't hit two out of 3 bolded bullets...

 

Wait, now I'm confused: is a serious mistake worse than a significant one? Can a mistake be serious but no significant? Significant but not serious?

In theory could one mistake interrupt the flow and integrity without deserving capped GOE?

Wait, jumps with endless preparation and 0 relation to music would be exactly that!

And a fall timed to music could be significant error but not serious! 

I KNEW IT!!! 

JK

 

 

*passes aspirin and antacids*

 

 

[hoodie axel]

7 hours ago, monchan said:

Seems like things don't go very well for ISU this yr  (Karma exists )

It's the French Fed. The ISU probably reasonably asked them to have a semblance of standards.

 

53 minutes ago, LadyLou said:

And again, why should a couple stumbles on a jump landing mean otherwise outstanding SS shouldn't be rewarded as such?

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anything you wrote, but just pointing out that knee bend and ankles affect jump landings a lot, too. 

[Neenah]

Personally, I am glad they clarified the "serious error" issue without giving a very rigid definition. It was a discriminatory rule to begin with since it only affected certain skaters and not others. I believe that the goal from adding it was not to force the judges to punish mistakes, but to tell them that mistakes should be reflected in PC and make them consider it (at least that how I would do it in this case).

If they made it a deduction for specific error like for example if they said that "a fall and stepout are serious errors" then that would mean someone like Yuzu would be hit harder than others for the same mistakes since he is the only one who is generally in mid to high 9's (same for the top skaters in the other displances), which I think is not fair at all. 

[EisElle]

2 hours ago, hoodie axel said:

It's the French Fed. The ISU probably reasonably asked them to have a semblance of standards.

 

Not agreeing or disagreeing with anything you wrote, but just pointing out that knee bend and ankles affect jump landings a lot, too. 

you're right of course, I wasn't thinking about that at all since the skaters I had in mind aren't exactly praised for their soft knee, but they still land many difficult jumps... and the skater who has landed more quads than anyone else has been often criticized for his stiff knee on the landing too

so this is proof that landing a jump (not talking about quality, just staying on one foot) requires a different skill set than the good old skating. Hence to correlate one to the other is factually wrong

 

then of course skaters with good knee bend are able to save doomed jumps instead of splatting, that takes huge skill too  

and they can also have better landings, but lack of flow in a jump isn't a serious error* so it looks like a stiff landing knee would have 0 impact on skating skill evaluation. If they were really thinking about things like quality of take off and knee bend, the list of serious mistakes that could cap the SS score would be very long

* maybe, who knows

 

35 minutes ago, Neenah said:

Personally, I am glad they clarified the "serious error" issue without giving a very rigid definition. It was a discriminatory rule to begin with since it only affected certain skaters and not others. I believe that the goal from adding it was not to force the judges to punish mistakes, but to tell them that mistakes should be reflected in PC and make them consider it (at least that how I would do it in this case).

If they made it a deduction for specific error like for example if they said that "a fall and stepout are serious errors" then that would mean someone like Yuzu would be hit harder than others for the same mistakes since he is the only one who is generally in mid to high 9's (same for the top skaters in the other displances), which I think is not fair at all. 

yes, I admit it's one of those times I'm kinda glad ISU isn't super-detailed... of course one has to trust judges' better judgment.

I only wish it wasn't necessary to put anything like that in the rules, it would have meant all judges were already using their better judgment and their better judgment was... defensible, I suppose. Instead ISU needs to tell them loud and clear: hey you, please remember that mistakes can affect PCS too!

Because some scores weren't defensible at all.

 

 

anyway, I can't find anymore the PCS chart with the different componets explained...the one dated august 2016 iirc... is it gone or it's only me being unable to find it? The last update of PCS chart just shows the range for the score, but no components in detail. The only official explanation of the different componets I've found is here. Has anyone another ISU source detailing the 5 components?

 

P.S.: while I was searching for that, I've found this: ISU vs USB sticks (and cloud) vol1 (or maybe it was the prequel, I don't know).

I wonder how long it will be before someone tries again to launch ISU into the 21th century... I mean, there are some legit concerns there, but why are they such a  insurmountable problem for figure skating only, while for the rest of the world everything works just fine?

[Murieleirum]

4 hours ago, LadyLou said:

Tbh,  while in general I can agree a stumble makes performance worse, I don't think I would have liked to see olympic Seimei receive no more than 9 in PE and IN, and not because it's Yuzuru (well, maybe a bit of that too) but because I think it was one of his strongest Seimei ever, interpretation-wise.

 

PER CUI NON PUOI NON DARE CENTO! QUI DEVI DARE DIECI SU TUTTO! Coreografia, 10! Interpretazione, 10! Transitions, MA NE VOGLIAMO PARLARE?? Puoi vederti gli altri!!

 

(I gave up trying to understand tech talk and now my head is full of ita esp, sorry not sorry) 

[Yatagarasu]

22 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

(I gave up trying to understand tech talk and now my head is full of ita esp, sorry not sorry) 

 

Uno scandalo 

[Murieleirum]

5 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

Uno scandalo 

 

How many more scandali do we have to witness before Ambesi will go under Bianchetti's door in the night and kidnap his dog asking to review and rewrite the ISU rulebook handbook as a ransom? 

[Yatagarasu]

1 minute ago, Murieleirum said:

 

How many more scandali do we have to witness before Ambesi will go under Bianchetti's door in the night and kidnap his dog asking to review and rewrite the ISU rulebook handbook as a ransom? 

 

Tbh, the way these new rules are, and the way their glorious phrasing is, and if the judging from Minto keeps, I am not sure poor Max will last half the season! 

[Murieleirum]

1 minute ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

Tbh, the way these new rules are, and the way their glorious phrasing is, and if the judging from Minto keeps, I am not sure poor Max will last half the season! 

 

And after all that special number he did together with Angelo Dolfini on steps preceding jumps, all that technical, professional and accurate description of what was a perfect jump with transitions and what was a jump lacking something, what was a step before the jump and what wasn't... the ISU went ahead and eliminated the steps preceding the jump as a requirement. Just. 

[Yatagarasu]

Just now, Murieleirum said:

 

And after all that special number he did together with Angelo Dolfini on steps preceding jumps, all that technical, professional and accurate description of what was a perfect jump with transitions and what was a jump lacking something, what was a step before the jump and what wasn't... the ISU went ahead and eliminated the steps preceding the jump as a requirement. Just. 

 

You know, if someone was required to organize the end of the world? I would have ISU do it because they are so incompetent that they'd duck it up for sure and we'd end up surviving somehow. We'd have fewer brain cells but we'd survive. 

[Murieleirum]

3 minutes ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

You know, if someone was required to organize the end of the world? I would have ISU do it because they are so incompetent that they'd duck it up for sure and we'd end up surviving somehow. We'd have fewer brain cells but we'd survive. 

 

Maybe they'd think of a plan Thanos style: divide the population into two categories. The Artistic people and the Technical people. And then throw a dice and see who gets tough luck. 

[Neenah]

23 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

Maybe they'd think of a plan Thanos style: divide the population into two categories. The Artistic people and the Technical people. And then throw a dice and see who gets tough luck. 

No.. that is a very clear and easy to execute plan, the ISU needs things to be as convoluted and complicated as possible

[Murieleirum]

1 minute ago, Neenah said:

No.. that is a very clear and easy to execute plan, the ISU needs things to be as convoluted and complicated as possible

 

Like creating two different categories of errors which are weirdly not interchangeable though the words 'serious' and 'significant' are synonims of the English language? xP 

[robin]

All this ISU lovin

 

After watching the whole process unfold I have come to the conclusion that ISU rules are just not that deep. It's mostly arbitrary wording and they themsleves don't always know what they mean. Trying to make sense of the rules is just going to make us loose years of our lives? It's like painting something half-assed and random in art class and having to sell it to your teacher by explaining meaning into it

[WinForPooh]

4 hours ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

You know, if someone was required to organize the end of the world? I would have ISU do it because they are so incompetent that they'd duck it up for sure and we'd end up surviving somehow. We'd have fewer brain cells but we'd survive. 

*hoards all the antacids and aspirin frantically* Please, I'd rather die than live like that, my head would explode and my stomach would corrode.