General Skating Chat

[robin]

7 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I guess it will be totally coincidental that when Yuzuru will eventually retire, FS will die as a sport and I guess I won't be the only one losing part of my interest and, say, stop spending money on competitions and tickets and get on with my life... although it's pretty sad to think that Yuzuru's type of skating, and those who are looking up to him and trying to become as complete as him, won't go on for long because it does not play for the advantage of... who exactly? Why is ISU like this? 

 

Apparently because "Peggy has some really strong feelings about artistry" /gag

 

Can someone take FS away from Bianchetti pls

 

eta: And yea it is so sad. Just When Yuzu inspired this whole generation of skaters who will hopefully value technique just as much as transitions and performance etc. they come and ruin the whole system

[Tsubakindy]

2 hours ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I guess it will be totally coincidental that when Yuzuru will eventually retire, FS will die as a sport and I guess I won't be the only one losing part of my interest and, say, stop spending money on competitions and tickets and get on with my life... although it's pretty sad to think that Yuzuru's type of skating, and those who are looking up to him and trying to become as complete as him, won't go on for long because it does not play for the advantage of... who exactly? Why is ISU like this? 

Someone want to buy tickets to jumping-only competitions?  I'm not sure I can stop myself from falling asleep either for artistry-only ones ( unless its zuzu or yuna kim )

 

The complete package skaters are retiring one by one, after they finish milking money from Yuzu I guess they'll just self-destruct

[Murieleirum]

24 minutes ago, robin said:

 

Apparently because "Peggy has some really strong feelings about artistry" /gag

 

Can someone take FS away from Bianchetti pls

 

eta: And yea it is so sad. Just When Yuzu inspired this whole generation of skaters who will hopefully value technique just as much as transitions and performance etc. they come and ruin the whole system

 

I honestly hope a voice above all others will rise to fight this "secession" of artistry and technique (sport), which is what makes fs so special and different from other sports. 
I wonder if Yuzuru will ever voice his opinion (which is pretty clear) about this once he is free from the constraints of competition...

 

I am so ashamed that there are so many Italian ISU officials who are *censoring myself*

[Lunna]

Way to go ISU of course without Yuzu competing I will not spend tons of money for travelling aboard, but I will still watch it on TV and go to FS comps in my country. Good job for turning away long-time FS fans. If I'll want artistic programm I'll better watch ice shows.

[Lunna]

3 минуты назад, Tsubakindy сказал:

Someone want to buy tickets to jumping-only competitions? 

I almost fell asleep during Nathan FS in Milano

[Murieleirum]

3 minutes ago, Lunna said:

I almost fell asleep during Nathan FS in Milano

 

Maybe you were just tired out by the splatfest that preceded him?  I was hardly keeping my head up as Boyang was skating... I clapped a lot for Nathan, he kept his nerves above all others! Completely empty program though. 

[robin]

10 minutes ago, Lunna said:

Way to go ISU of course without Yuzu competing I will not spend tons of money for travelling aboard, but I will still watch it on TV and go to FS comps in my country. Good job for turning away long-time FS fans. If I'll want artistic programm I'll better watch ice shows.

 

Sry to say I don’t even feel very interested in Ice Shows and there‘s a reason for that... 

 

Instead of this separation they could make a new category: single ice dance 

 

13 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I honestly hope a voice above all others will rise to fight this "secession" of artistry and technique (sport), which is what makes fs so special and different from other sports. 
I wonder if Yuzuru will ever voice his opinion (which is pretty clear) about this once he is free from the constraints of competition...

 

I am so ashamed that there are so many Italian ISU officials who are *censoring myself*

 

It‘s ok, instead you have the best commentators 

[EisElle]

Oh so they were really serious about that  I had hope that with the rule change ISU had calmed down, so naive 

That there are people out there who enjoy current comps more than the old ones, supposedly 'more artistic', should be enough to tell them 'artistry' is too volatile a concept to became the main factor when ranking skaters in a competition.

Also, when Peggy Fleming was competing, doubles and triples were what triples and quads are today, in terms of technical difficulty and boundaries of the sport. How downgrading that much from current skaters's technical ability in competition is supposed to work IN A SPORT is beyond me. Has anyone back in the 60s and 70s ever complained that they'd rather have all single jumps but done beautifully rather than see skaters jumping all those doubles and triples? Maybe yes, but It would only mean that for some people even double jumps were 'too much' for 'artistry'. And if not,  if skaters could be artistic while executing the highest technical difficulty for the time, then what's the difference with what we have now?

 

And there are already skaters doing every kind of 'embellishment' on triples and even quads. Smooth and effortless? Done. Transitions in and out? Done. Arms variations? Done.

But hey,  now ISU doesn't even want steps before jumps, suppressed the bullet for creative exit and apparently hates arms variations. Dear Peggy, don't blame quads if we see empty programs, blame your ISU and the ridiculous PCS scoring that's happened in the last years.

And yet top skaters are the excellence in the whole history of FS. Just for the last Olympics, and leaving Yuzuru aside, S/M, S/H, V/M...you CAN'T tell me they are less 'artistic' than any older skater because of the technical requirements. They are the living, skating proof that true excellence is merging the highest athleticism with artistic expression.

It makes me extremely sad that ISU wants to erase that legacy, and that is even thinking about that after the amazing OWG we've just had.

And I'm really disappointed that in 4 years we could see Yuzuru's beautiful ideal of FS destroyed.

ISU, if you want this misterious 'artistry' to be valued more, why don't you prevent your judges from linking PCS to TES? Or to reputation? Or from giving away GOE on mediocre jumps with long preparation? You put in your darn rules long preparation is a -GOE. Ugly landings are -GOE. And you made video were they literally count  the number of seconds when a skater is disconnected from music during his program. I could easily swap your examples with some very recent skates but then your judges' scores tell me a different story than your explanatory video. 

Also, ISU, you want more creativity? Why don't you start making your judges stop giving full BV and +3 GOE for poor ChSq?

Please and thank you.

 

@Murieleirum it's such an awful joke that we have competent, amazing commentators like Max&Angelo and then people like Bianchetti jr and sr... and sadly those are the ones in prominent positions

Can't they swap? I would gladly put up with idiotic commentaries if that meant having the more reasonable, knowledgeable people in key ISU roles...

[Lunna]

40 минут назад, Murieleirum сказал:

 

Maybe you were just tired out by the splatfest that preceded him?  I was hardly keeping my head up as Boyang was skating... I clapped a lot for Nathan, he kept his nerves above all others! Completely empty program though. 

The groups before the last were good, Kazuki was great, Dima not best but OK, Messing fell but was fun to watch, during Boyang I wanted to close my eyes when he flew into the boards cheered for Shoma - that was really a fighting skate, but Nathan I dunno... at CoR it looked OK, but during Milano I was already bored by that FS.

[Murieleirum]

1 hour ago, LadyLou said:

@Murieleirum it's such an awful joke that we have competent, amazing commentators like Max&Angelo and then people like Bianchetti jr and sr... and sadly those are the ones in prominent positions

Can't they swap? I would gladly put up with idiotic commentaries if that meant having the more reasonable, knowledgeable people in key ISU roles...

 

It's just that I think Max (and Angelo) want to work in their own field, sports analysts and commentators - and getting involved in the whole ISU shenanigans would be too much. 
I think that the skaters who are retiring today and are turning pro, or the skaters retiring from pro, should do all within their power to gain grounds within the ISU and put their foot down regarding what they love about FS and what cannot and should not change. 

I am honestly surprised that so little athletes and coaches protest these things. There should be a massive protest as far as I'm concerned. I understand if skaters want to focus on following the rules and winning by being the best sportsmen - I believe Yuzuru's style of skating has been a sort of protest all along - since he is the only one (in the Men's field) consistently putting transitions in and out, putting quality in executing the elements and quality in all things skating above all - representing the theory that 'everything in skating is art - not just crossovers, not just jumps, not just flailing arms - everything must be thought of as art'. 

But then again, although we know that the whole skating community recognizes his idea of skating as a winning one, as the most respectful one in regards to everything FS - I don't hear everyone voicing out this feeling, and I don't hear enough people calling bullshit on the ISU. 

For me, it's absurd, and I know it's easy to say, but if it were me, I would risk my face if it meant fighting intellectually ISU with all my power. That's what I did every time I didn't agree on a rule imposed from above - gotten into trouble - but sometimes changes did happen. 

 

Sorry, these words must sound overly self-righteous and utopistic. I guess this is how I see things. 

[Neenah]

I think it is possible to stop this if enough feds were against it. After all, they need a majority to pass anything in the ISU (the benefit of watching the congress was learning how things really happen there). I think that if the fans made enough noise to get the feds to consider the issue and vote against it (rather than ignore it), it can be stopped. We know for a fact that they are aware of our protests and I think it is possible to convince them to see our side of the discussion.

 

I personally don't believe that the ISU or the feds are trying to kill the sport as I don't see any benefit for them from doing that. What I think is happening is that they believe they know better and that their ideas will revive the sport which is losing popularity (according to them). They need to be convinced by other view points or voted out by the other feds.

[yuzuangel]

The problem with calling it an "artistry" competition is that the term is so nebulous. What is artistry? Is it skating skills? Transitions? If there are no jumps or spins, transitions into what? Or the other more "artistic" PCS components like choreography, presentation, interpretation? And who gets to judge that?

Calling it an "artistry" competition just makes it sound so subjective and opens it to a lot of criticism, even if it's unwarranted. Although I have a hard time believing it will be unwarranted.

I can see the ISU going the gymnastics route with a spin competition, a jump competition, and an all-around competition (what it currently is). I mean, they did already add the team event. But imagining skaters just spinning all day or jumping all day makes me cringe at how many injuries that might result in -- thinking of Lucinda Ruh's problems with micro-concussions from spinning too much. And various ankles and knees...

If the issue is wanting to give out more medals, maybe they could have a short program segment, a free skate segment, and a combined segment, and give out Olympic medals for each. That way skaters could optimize their programs differently and maybe even only skate one of the segments. And we might see a really really beautiful short program from someone who might not be technically strong enough to compete in the free skate, rather than two mediocre programs.

 

7 hours ago, robin said:

 

Instead of this separation they could make a new category: single ice dance 

 

It exists, at least in the US, but no one watches it

[robin]

2 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

It exists, at least in the US, but no one watches it

 

I wonder why

 

2 hours ago, yuzuangel said:

The problem with calling it an "artistry" competition is that the term is so nebulous. What is artistry? Is it skating skills? Transitions? If there are no jumps or spins, transitions into what? Or the other more "artistic" PCS components like choreography, presentation, interpretation? And who gets to judge that?

Calling it an "artistry" competition just makes it sound so subjective and opens it to a lot of criticism, even if it's unwarranted. Although I have a hard time believing it will be unwarranted.

 

It seems like what they're doing in theory is make one program with just TES and another with just PCS but that's just naive and reductive. PCS, skating skills, transitions etc. support the technical content that counts to TES. TES and PCS are interdependent and it makes no sense to isolate them from each other.

 

I roll my eyes everytime someone uses PCS and atristry interchangeably. It erases so much work and practice and time invested. Transitions, skating skills, speed, flow and ease across the ice etc. are not easily aquired without technical skill by just being "artistic".

[Yatagarasu]

1 hour ago, robin said:

and another with just PCS

 

IOC is so not going to go for that though.

In general, ISU had quite a bit of work to have them accept ID as an actual sport. I think what they're proposing is going to send IOC running for the hills. They are not keen on having even more complaints about either skating not being a real sport, or complaints about fixes, and both of these would be like mushrooms if they went for this 'artistry' thing they are suggesting. 

[robin]

1 minute ago, Yatagarasu said:

 

IOC is so not going to go for that though.

In general, ISU had quite a bit of work to have them accept ID as an actual sport. I think what they're proposing is going to send IOC running for the hills. They are not keen on having even more complaints about either skating not being a real sport, or complaints about fixes, and both of these would be like mushrooms if they went for this 'artistry' thing they are suggesting. 

 

Oh please, from your lips to the skating gods' ears