General Skating Chat

[Joey]

Uhm, I don't want to be ~that~ fan, that can apparently see nothing wrong or no weakness, but if Yuzu apparently doesn't appeal to "causal viewers", how was he by far and away and by lightyears in front of everyone else the break out star of the last Olympic season in men's? Of course it depends on the program, and H&L might not appeal to casual viewers because it's so introverted, without a clear highlight and so on. But Seimei & Chopin? You bet. LGC? Etude? R&J1? PW? Yes, yes, and yes.

 

In fact, I remember I had friends over in 2014 to watch Olys together who normally know no skating at all. They majorly arrived having seen something of Yuzu before - in German media (don't ask me where they caught it, I'm still shocked myself) - and the first thing one said was "That Japanese kid is skating, right? Man, no way he doesn't win this easily, he's so charismatic!". So, 'my' casual viewers beg to differ

[kaeryth]

 

[Yatagarasu]

Hmm, yeah, I'm going to disagree here with a large chunk of text. 

 

Yuzuru is not the only true megastar of skating because he appeals to a niche audience; he is the megastar because he appeals to a wide range of people, across the demos, of all genders. It all started with 2012, I suppose you had to be around during that time, and then later, at Sochi, when he sort of cemented it, but he was everywhere, and the 1 in 4s loved him! It was exactly that old cliche of a star was born, but that is what it was. He also rode that wave to where he is now, which is another characteristic of a true star because the initial 'explosion' is not enough; a true star is a person who keeps you focused on them and the only way to do that is to have the 'general audience' riveted.

 

H&L was a peculiar kind of program, a huge bite that I think worked out in the end but it should by no means be a measure stick for Yuzuru's programs because that was an outlier. Starting by R&J and "ending" now with Chopin/SEIMEI, he's definitely got the programs that grab you and don't let go, and combined with his personality, it's just a mix that does not exist in any other skater currently.

 

And yeah, I'll disagree that he has to learn anything from either Patrick or Javier when it comes to IN or PE. 

Mind you, I do think Javier, not Patrick, is an excellent performer; I just think Yuzuru has a far wider range as one. Does he have off days? Definitely, but they all do. The emotional involvement was the visible bit in H&L but then again, he wasn't skating to Elvis, now was he? And this is not a dis on Javier, it's just that H&L as music/program was far more complex and thus far more prone to showing even the tiniest issue. 

When it comes to SEIMEI, it is a good Olympic choice not only because I think the music itself is far more accessible; it is because it is easier to show variety of movement and energy, it's easier to show personality/individuality, and emotional, physical and intellectual involvement and projection that will appeal to all. It really is perfection of a program for the Olympic Games.

 

As for IN, I am yet to see a program where he has failed to translate the character and the music content onto the ice, when it comes to both timing, expression of music and reflection of nuances of the music. But that's just me 

[kaeryth]

I think it's more of a 'which program is easier to get at first glance' and that's where Javi excels (ex. Chaplin choreography to Chaplin music or Elvis moves to Elvis music). In a way, Shoma too... while Shoma doesn't really play characters, he sorta is the character since the way he expresses his programs all have a similar feel/vibe to it. With this, I feel like most judges already have a preconceived notion of what a skater and their style is so when they go outside the box it's always a gamble on whether it might be appreciated or not (RIP LGC). This is why I think versatility, which is Yuzu's strength can also be his weakness sometimes. Each of his programs and the way he interprets them is different from each other. Even something that he's repeated... say Chopin, all 3 versions while they have similarities have a completely different feel to them.

[Murieleirum]

10 hours ago, kaeryth said:

This is why I think versatility, which is Yuzu's strength can also be his weakness sometimes.

 

Yeah, this is exactly what I think. Of course, I prefer his PE and IN above all else. He is my kind of performer. I like depth, genuinity. I honestly don't like fixed characters (this reminds me a little of studying acting and the fixed characters that are so popular in that field). And I agree that what Yuzuru does is more complicated than everyone else. And for that reason, Javier and Shoma 'arrive faster' to the audience, in a more simple, immediate way. 

[Sombreuil]

Regarding the once every 4 years viewer, I look at how my family react, as this season they've actually watched a bit of it with me (Olympics coming up?).  They definitely respond to and appreciate the 'smoothness' of Javiers skating - I'll be interested to see what they make of Patrick as they didn't get up for SC! ( though he's probably got my husband at 'Hallelujah') - whether they will respond to his more laid back but ultra smooth style.  The male members of the family like Boyang because he's fun.  My daughter is someone who likes certain sorts of music ( @LadyLou point )so Mura is her favourite- (she adores Phantom, she liked Yuzurus and Akikos and Kanakos as well when I found them on YouTube for her!) she's not keen on Shoma because she doesn't like baroque music and she hates Nessun dorma because of the football connection.  Shes taken against Nathan because of the sweat stains!  All of them react disproportionally to falls.

 

So a collection of non figure skating fans have a lot of random reactions that don't have much to do with skating but have a lot to do with personal preferences and bias over non skating issues when they actually stop to watch it.  Interestingly they could all see why Yuzuru is World and Olympic champion even when they preferred other skaters for weird reasons - elegance, looking effortless, seems to be doing more complicated 'things'.  

 

[meoima]

Yuzuru suits rock music with strong rhythm (because he is a young man at heart), ballad music (because his body is slender and airy), Classic music (because of beautiful body lines and the flow in his skating), and warrior/dramatic music (because he is dramatic). Maybe in the future he will do even some jazz program. I think he is pretty much versatile. Just don’t do latin/comedy programs. But pretty much I think Yuzuru can do a lot, he just doesn’t want to take too much all at once as he is a perfectionist and he wants to refine everything in his performance so it takes a lot of time. 

 

I think Chopin and Seimei make up of a great due, both show the lightness and smoothness of his skating but also his power and speed and his command on the ice with a flare of drama. 

 

I would say no one can express some certain music or theme if they never experience it themselves, for example I understand why people say his NDP and Romeo&Juliet 2.0 were not that good at interpretation. The thing is, I couldn’t even connect with those music as well. These choices were just not connecting to me at all (and I have quite a lot of experience with musical themes and literature world). So it’s hard for older generations, how come people expect it’s comprehensive for Yuzuru who is much of a young person. 

 

I am sure many young performers (skaters, dancers, musicians) have this same feelings of performing to theme/choreography they don’t really connect with but their coaches/instructors/teachers tell them to do so. But it doesn’t matter. Many famous classical musicians have stated that somehow they don’t understand why people prefer their certain performances when they’re young, even though at the time they actually didn’t like what they were playing. Ironically, people’s perception has always been diverse and divided. 

 

I am not fond of Yuzuru’s Romeo 2.0 and NDP. But I am glad Yuzuru skated to Romeo 2.0 and NDP, he had chances to learn and adapt to new things, to walk out of his comfort zone. Those programs clearly contributed to his personal growth as a skater.

 

Anyway, people’s perception of good interpretation depends a lot on how clean most elements are executed. Even if the skaters don’t understand anything about what they’re skating to, as long as they land the jumps well, do the spin fast and well-centered, their presentation and interpretation automatically are judged better by the norm.

 

My conclusion, if you complain about Yuzuru’s Romeo 2.0 and NDP, I recommend you watch other programs with same music and same theme by other skaters in the past. I mean... they’re not that much better than Yuzuru anyway. They might hwve the more suitable costumes and certain looks that suited the stories. But did their presentation showed of any deep understanding? I doubt that. Maybe in ice dance or pair, NDP and Romeo by Nino Rota looked more convincing, but not so much in singles anyway. 

[Katt]

While NDP and R&2 are far from my favourite, I still enjoy some of the transitions/choreo details in these 2 programs. The IB in R&J2 is still the best and the transitions in NDP are better than most LP these days. I think its good that Yuzu got alot of experience from NDP and R&J2, to know what's suit him better. You'll never know it until you try to walk out of your comfort zone. All skaters have hit and miss programs, its a part of the artistic improvement. 

[EisElle]

18 hours ago, kaeryth said:

 

If that's how the board will look like, it seems pretty neat to me. Better than how they are now, if they look like the one on the wiki page. That one looks so clogged, it looks like one can easily mess up and press the wrong key maybe the infamous Mexican judge is merely bad at finding the right key in that mess

 

Re: Yuzuru's ability to connect

As @Yatagarasu said, when you think of how Yuzuru has managed to conquered and keep the huge fanbase he has now, you can't say that he lacks connection with audience at all. And it started before he started breaking records, so on can't even say we're all blinded by his competitive results. He brought an arena to their feet and burnt himself into the memory of so many people that likely hadn't ever paid that much attention to that noodle of a kid with a flare for spectacular falls

#ImmortalQuotes by Tracy   karma came back to bite her when the kid with sensational jumps and spectacular falls went to train with her I wish we had a picture of her face the moment she heard that...maybe she laughed, or she thought "oh s**t" and then "we've got some work to do". I credit her and her strictness for how Yuzu's ss upgraded from good to fab. She must be so proud help I'm melting

 

For me, it's true that I am partial to everything Yuzu, so of course I connect with what he does easily, but then there is the fact that I've became his fan in the first place. It didn't happen because of tech or WR, it happened because I liked his performance, with the additional merit that I've come to love it despite the music not being my cup of tea.

The thing that appealed me first of PW (yes, it wasn't love at first sight, but it was what made me a fan), tho I didn't really liked the music (back then I'd rather have a Four Seasons, a Moulin Rouge or a R&J anytime...) was that he looked absolutely carefree in what he did. He felt authentic, like he was having fun at a party, not like he was playing a character or wanted to tell me a story. It was just him dancing and being excited. Just like when in galas he's just there dancing and being excited. His charisma does't come from a program or a character, but from himself and I think from him being sincere in how he expresses whatever he feels (so, of course, if he feels disappointed or is too busy recalculating layouts on the fly, that can come out too)

 

Re: ability to express music through body movements

One of the (many many)things I admire of Yuzuru is that, while he still has his distinctive style whenever he skates, he has different sets of movements for every program he performs. The way he moves his arm, hands, even his head in SEIMEI is different from how he moves in, say, Chopin Ballade, which is different from Notte Stellata (even just talking about the programs he's performed this season thus far).

Of course that's the aim of good choreography, too, to find movements fitting the music, but sometimes a choreo only goes as far as placing a "move" here or there on a highligh, but not truly making the movement itself unique for that particular moment in that particular program, till the smallest detail (it could be a certain way to spread fingers or extending an arm).

Which is tbh what's I'd like to see someone like Shoma work on more, because he hasn't still dug into his potential there. I know he's credited for being really good with his upper body movements, but my point is repetitiveness. A lot of his movements in this season SP and FS involve clenching and opening his fists, sharply, splaying his fingers. He can move his arms and fingers with more softness, there are a few moments in the FS after the camel spin and later on and also in some of his ex programs where you can see he has a way broader range of movements, but he doesn't employ them as he could (or better, as I'd like, because he'd appeal me a lot more with that broader range of movements and he is able do them. Rewatching last season programs I've realized this season the range has actually shrunk). Also, Shoma, I know this is something really trivial, but could you at least change a bit the ending pose of your programs? Why are they all so similar? With that right arm dramatically raised to the sky? Winter, Turandot, even See you again EX. Why?

I admit I haven't paid as close attention to other skaters, but this thing really stood out to me so I went to check if I was just seeing things

[Yatagarasu]

20 hours ago, kaeryth said:

it's always a gamble on whether it might be appreciated or not (RIP LGC). 

 

 

LGC was appreciated IMO, Yuzuru just never skated it clean. At GPF 2016/17, which I would say was the best LGC we had all season, with the mistake on the 4Lo, he scored 106.53 with a PCS of 47.35. The judges were ready to shower him with great marks but alas, he simply never got there. So I would not say that this particular short program wasn't appreciated, we simply don't know what  the score would have been had he for example gone Chopin-clean with it at say Helsinki. It's really my only regret from last season because it was such a splendid program. I think for the GA, Chopin is a better-suited program, but on its own, LGC was brilliant. 

 

I don't really think his versatility is a problem as he has grown through all of those different programs, and even with H&L, in the end, they had to go with him, albeit grudgingly but some of that had to do with other external factors, like leaving room for Javi and Shoma, rather than anything program-related. So overall, I'd say it was a massive benefit to him to have gone through all of these.

[axelsandwich]

On 01/12/2017 at 8:57 AM, Sombreuil said:

I think sometimes the music weighs very heavily - one commentator, can't remember who (KB?) said last season that with Nathan's FS Borodin did the heavy lifting for him - people liked the music and saw artistry and interpretation that wasn't really there.  Despite the much vaunted ballet background (which to me is totally irrelevant - if I want to watch ballet I go to the ballet-)  he looks so much more at home with his modern SP this season.  Looking at Zagitovas ex I wonder if she might prefer to break away from the tutus given half a chance.  And warhorses are used for good reasons - the Olympic only watcher expects to hear them and connects with them.

 

This fits with the idea that every skater has particular genres of music that are a better fit for them - Nathan and Wakaba are the lucky two who I felt really managed to hit on 'their' music this season (Nathan's SP, Waka's FS), which is why there was such a drastic upswing in interest and appeal (sadly not PCS marks for Wakaba). The programs become a highlight because of how well it fits them and puts them in a position where the audience is really able to get emotionally invested in their skating. Alina's music - to me - is just 'meh' to me, it's not bad but it's not the one, though I couldn't tell you what 'the one' is. PW was Yuzu's key weapon in Sochi, let's be real, and I hope Seimei and Chopin will be similarly so. 

 

I've been showing things to non-skating fans around me quite a bit in my descent into the FS fandom -- I think I often forget that casual people aren't only lacking emotional investment in the skaters but also - to be honest - don't really care about the skating lol. All they're looking out for is confidently rotated jumps and good landings because it's the one element they can understand, and the rest is if they like the music (my family got abruptly more impressed by Yuzu after LGC against all expectation -- it was the first program they watched fully that they couldn't look away from, apart from GPF Seimei), if they're distracted by the costumes; if they find the skater physically appealing lol. I think most of them take to 'direct' storytelling and intensity more readily because it demands your attention from the get-go, rather than introverted, 'slow start' programs (where I sometimes have to remind them to LOOK, SOMETHING'S HAPPENING). That being said, you show them Group 1 skaters and then the top skaters and they can sense the difference, and also have commented on the difference in the way Yuzu moves compared to some others. 

[SSS]

13 hours ago, meoima said:

more suitable costumes

you won’t forget to mention this 

 

 

Yuzuru’s versatility is one of the reasons we love him so much. I feel like other skaters are repeating the same style.

[Xen]

On 12/1/2017 at 8:13 AM, kaeryth said:

 

There is so much...WRONG with that UI.  Why make judges do math? That might be a good way to get the GOE points wrong. Instead, why not just have the bullet points listed on the side, or on the bottom, and let the judges press the buttons of the bullet points that they think apply to this element? Then let the computer system take care of the addition/subtraction itself? o_O Granted, this could become problematic at certain GP events where the system likes to go down, but you should have a log of which bullets were applied no? 

 

[kaeryth]

30 minutes ago, Xen said:

There is so much...WRONG with that UI.  Why make judges do math? That might be a good way to get the GOE points wrong. Instead, why not just have the bullet points listed on the side, or on the bottom, and let the judges press the buttons of the bullet points that they think apply to this element? Then let the computer system take care of the addition/subtraction itself? o_O Granted, this could become problematic at certain GP events where the system likes to go down, but you should have a log of which bullets were applied no? 

 

 

At least it's less of an eyesore than the current one being used?

 

[axelsandwich]

1 hour ago, Xen said:

There is so much...WRONG with that UI.  Why make judges do math? That might be a good way to get the GOE points wrong. Instead, why not just have the bullet points listed on the side, or on the bottom, and let the judges press the buttons of the bullet points that they think apply to this element? Then let the computer system take care of the addition/subtraction itself? o_O Granted, this could become problematic at certain GP events where the system likes to go down, but you should have a log of which bullets were applied no? 

 

they wouldn't be able to fudge numbers as convincingly if they did it your way.....

 

To be fair, it would take quite a bit of time for judges to press up to 8 bullets for each element live while the skater is performing, they probably are just trained to 'internalise' what a +1/+2/+3GOE element looks like and hence we get some wild calls every once in awhile (then again...being able to check off bullets fast should be what judge training is for lol)