General Skating Chat

[EisElle]

I wonder if the spread eagle can be still counted as "creative, interesting, original" given how overused it's becoming of late :s_scratchhead

Poor Yuzu. Maybe we won't see the spread eagle sandwich next season?

Spread eagles still count as transition/steps, I think? Though I never see them applied to a solo quad jump except by, well, Yuzu. Usually they're getting attached to the 3As (Shoma, Nathan, Yuzu back in Chopin 1.0).

 

What I mean is that this new definition

"2) clear recognizable (creative, interesting, original for jump preceded by steps/movements of the Short Program) steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element"

can be very very subjective, more than the "difficult steps" I think? I have no idea, this is why I'm asking. :s_dunno A judge may decide he has had enough of spread-eagles-before-jump from yuzuru. I really hate that GOE points can be bended and twisted so much so to justify even the craziest scores... :hammer:

[xeyra]

I wonder if the spread eagle can be still counted as "creative, interesting, original" given how overused it's becoming of late :s_scratchhead

Poor Yuzu. Maybe we won't see the spread eagle sandwich next season?

Spread eagles still count as transition/steps, I think? Though I never see them applied to a solo quad jump except by, well, Yuzu. Usually they're getting attached to the 3As (Shoma, Nathan, Yuzu back in Chopin 1.0).

 

What I mean is that this new definition

"2) clear recognizable (creative, interesting, original for jump preceded by steps/movements of the Short Program) steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element"

can be very very subjective, more than the "difficult steps" I think? I have no idea, this is why I'm asking. :s_dunno A judge may decide he has had enough of spread-eagles-before-jump from yuzuru. I really hate that GOE points can be bended and twisted so much so to justify even the craziest scores... :hammer:

Yes, it can be subjective, but not that much. I don't think any judge worth its name can or will deduct a -3 out of positive bullets of a quad jump within a spread-eagle sandwich unless the jump really sucks (at most he could get a 0, which is scandalous enough but it also depends on how he does the jump, of course). I don't think this rule will have much bearing on what Yuzu does or doesn't do. It might have on other people whose solo jumps in the SP used to be judged in a less consensual way by judges applying or not applying the steps rule.

[Étudeesque]

Hello everyone, gotta say I love layout-talk :grin:

 

The 4Lz with 4 quads FS layout with a BV of around 107 sounds like the best choice to me. It all depends on Yuzuru's 4Lz succession rate though. It is so hard to tell how the jump is going 1/9 at WTT is not great, though given the quite short set-up he seemed to be using(?) I wouldn't say it is bad either. There were also rumors of him having a 60% success rate with the jump at TCC, tight? It doesn't also guarantee that it will transition into a similar success rate when out in a program. Does anyone remeber the source of Yuzuru practicing (end even landing?) 4Lz in his run-throughs? I think it surfaced before 4CC, but I'm not sure.

 

Yuzuru does seem to have great technique on the jump though, and like mentioned his set-up at WTT was basically the same as his 3Lz set-up. It was so very pretty in the air :goe: So that makes me hopeful.

 

I think 4Lz would be a good idea in the free skate next season, the PCS gap will lessen between the top skaters no matter the actual improvement as long as they are clean/nearly clean at PC18... It annoys me, but it is what it is.

 

4Lz with 4 quads is also great since if anything goes wrong (falling on 4Lz, being behind due to a mistake in his SP or if a competitor really nails his program) he could change to 4TLo3S and 3A as last jump (such a high risk scenario though...). He does seem to seriously be thinking about 4TLo3S or 4SLo3T given his previous comments and WTT.

[Étudeesque]

Also...

 

I don't think he will (nor should) 1) add a 4Lz in his short or 2) try to do both 4Lz and 4Lo3T. 1) Adding a new jump to the short is a huge risk, the reason Yuzuru did it this season was to stabilize the 4Lo for Olympic season. Having a new jump as such an important part of the short program will add a lot of pressure and Yuzuru, while he is a great competitor, is human and he does feel pressure (though he does seem to be more sensitive to pressure when he thinks the layout is something he should be able to do...). A mistake on the short is very costly, especially since the PCS gap between him and Shoma and Nathan in the short is pretty small. Yuzuru I believe if he nails all his elements in the short will probably still also get basically 49 in PCS. If the short is something he is more comfortable with, like he was with PW, I think his crazy transition-filled program will be rewarded. 2) Adding two new elements, which is basically what he is doing if he adds both 4Lz and 4Lo3T is a huge task. Physically as well as mentally. I think we forget that Yuzuru had not really done the 4S3T that much before this season. Doing both that new combo (for him) and the 4Lo, which are also both edge jumps, was a big adjustment I'm sure (and both in the short and free). The 4T has been so central for Yuzuru before this season. 2015/16 he talked of the mental block of doing the 4T3T in the second half, pretty sure that it was still a little bit of an obstacle this season (though now with the new 4S3T). Pretty sure he did those two new elements due to his injury and to get the milage for the upcoming season.

 

I mean the combination of: doing a new combo + having to change it away from the musical climax + mental block that arose when he fell on it so much + another new element 4Lo which required a lot of concentration - I've got to say I'm very impressed with Yuzuru finally getting it all together at Worlds.

 

I really like his 3A3T combos, it is just amazing :goe: so I gotta say I'm partial to layouts where he gets to do it.

 

About keeping the 4S3T/repeating 4S: I'm optimistic that his troubles with it was mainly growing pains (a k a needing to get the milage) and mental block. I mean look at his beautiful single 4S jump now, who knew we would end up it when we were watching him during the 12/13 and 13/14 season? (and it being so consistent :bow: I'm not trying to challenge fate dear Skating Gods so plz don't do anything to change this).

[meoima]

I forgot Nathan's BV, anyone tell me his BV with 6 quad is how much? Thanks. I am so slow these days.

[xeyra]

I forgot Nathan's BV, anyone tell me his BV with 6 quad is how much? Thanks. I am so slow these days.

If going by [link=https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/846409033452048384]Jackie Wong's tweet[/link] at the time of his 6-quad layout at Worlds, the BV would be 115.74, assuming all level 4s.

 

A 7-quad layout with the 4Lo could go up to 122 BV.

[meoima]

I forgot Nathan's BV, anyone tell me his BV with 6 quad is how much? Thanks. I am so slow these days.

If going by [link=https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/846409033452048384]Jackie Wong's tweet[/link] at the time of his 6-quad layout at Worlds, the BV would be 115.74, assuming all level 4s.

A 7-quad layout with the 4Lo could go up to 122 BV.

Nathan's BV at WC was 112.87 from ISU protocol with all level 4. I assume if he upgraded the layout then it might be around 115 -116 next season. I don't think he should do 4lo cause it will be harmful on his hip but who knows, Nathan does not seem to care about lasting until 2022 much.

[GreatLakesGal]

Add me to the members of your fan club, Fresca. I'm not a skater or a dancer but I know which skaters bring me joy and which ones don't. However, until I started reading your excellent posts I wasn't always sure exactly WHY I preferred certain skaters to others. Thank you so much for enlightening me!

[meoima]

And if we talk like this on the other forums about Nathan and Shoma, we will be labeled as haters and fanatics. I am sad that this sport doesn't have credible critics. All the figure skating reporters are either ignorant or not paying attention to this. And when they write something, they never ever mention the technique part. And many coaches and specialists just turn their eyes away and dare nor speak up.

[Katt]

Thank you Fresca for all your explanations :bow:

 

When I see Nathan' jumps, the 1st thing in my mind is he really has problem with his hip. He seem to rely a lot on rotation speed to complete the jump and the result is his upper body is so stress on his landing. Actually, its not only him, a few youngster have this problem when they jump quad/3a, too (Shoma, Vincent, even Jun Hwan Cha have it sometimes).

 

As for Shoma's jump, I think Kurt have some comments about it like he twist his knee and shift his upper body to the left to control the landing (I couldn't remember when he said it). Its sound a bit scary and reading Fresca's post... seem like its even worse :s_sad

[meoima]

Here it is the evidence (wait for the slow motion) https://www.instagram.com/p/BT8yr-hj03V/

There is a lot wrong with that landing. You can see here the issues that I mentioned above: 1) misalignment of the foot and knee, 2) misalignment of the torso and the lower body and 3) misalignment of the shoulders and the hips. The sweeping motion he does with his arm is a balance check that helps him realign his torso. He wrenches himself back into alignment to land the jump but physics is making him pay a high price for these jumps with his body. The scariest part is that these kinds of landings from him are not one-offs but seem to be how he commonly lands some of his jumps. I don't want to think about how his 4Lz will look like.

One more thing, I am not sure if it's a joke or not. Fairuza could confirm that. In some interview Plushenko said something like Mishin's young students are learning to jump like Shoma aka cheats the take-off a lot. Well... of course because by cheating the take-off, you can get away with the landings.

[MaxSWAGG]

Frankly, at this point, it is too late for Shoma and Nathan to significantly "fix" their techniques.  I'm still mind-boggled at the GOE Shoma received in Helsinki.  When I scored it I had him 10 points less than what he actually got!

[xeyra]

Bringing from the General Thread from earlier today the questions of layouts and how dangerous the youngsters are comparatively, I have updated the 'fantasy protocol' I originally posted in the old FF, up to Worlds and WTT scores.

 

This 'fantasy protocol' is sort of a comparative view of potential SP, FS and total scores, when adding up the highest GOE each element has received in the 2016/2017 season. The GOE attributed is per segment (e.g. only highest scores in the SP elements are accounted for the SP);

 

Notes:

• I have used, when possible, the proposed Worlds layout of all and provided alternative FS layouts for Yuzu (with 4Lz), Shoma (WTT with 2x4F) and Boyang (4CC), as well as an alternative SP layout with 4S for Patrick. I've used Nathan's proposed 6-quad layout for Worlds (not the one he ended up doing);
• Combos or jumps that have not had positive GOE or have yet to be tried in that particular section are presented as 0 GOE.
• I sort of cheated with the scores in Patrick's alt SP, because I wanted to check his score potential there. I forgot to add up with the FS score in the graphic but the total would be 316.56.

 

FANTASY PROTOCOL MEN 2016/2017 AND ALT LAYOUTS

Edit: Alt layout for Nathan with a 4Lo replacing the 3Lz. Edit 2: Alt layout for Shoma with a 4Lz replacing the 3Lz.

 

Observations:

• Yuzuru still has the best combined potential GOE of the Top 6, but Shoma is very close. 
• Nathan has had some average GOE scores comparatively, but he makes them up with high BV. He wins at TES more often than not. 
• The 3F-1Lo-3S is the bane of Javi's existence; it didn't have positive GOE at any competition this season. Why does he still attach the combo to his 3F??

 

If you have any doubts/questions or detect a mistake, let me know.

[unicorn]

1 hour ago, xeyra said:

Bringing from the General Thread from earlier today the questions of layouts and how dangerous the youngsters are comparatively, I have updated the 'fantasy protocol' I originally posted in the old FF, up to Worlds and WTT scores.

 

This 'fantasy protocol' is sort of a comparative view of potential SP, FS and total scores, when adding up the highest GOE each element has received in the 2016/2017 season. The GOE attributed is per segment (e.g. only highest scores in the SP elements are accounted for the SP);

 

Notes:

• I have used, when possible, the proposed Worlds layout of all and provided alternative FS layouts for Yuzu (with 4Lz), Shoma (WTT with 2x4F) and Boyang (4CC), as well as an alternative SP layout with 4S for Patrick. I've used Nathan's proposed 6-quad layout for Worlds (not the one he ended up doing);
• Combos or jumps that have not had positive GOE or have yet to be tried in that particular section are presented as 0 GOE.
• I sort of cheated with the scores in Patrick's alt SP, because I wanted to check his score potential there. I forgot to add up with the FS score in the graphic but the total would be 316.56.

 

FANTASY PROTOCOL MEN 2016/2017 AND ALT LAYOUTS

Edit: Also did an alternative layout for Nathan with a 4Lo replacing the 3Lz. 

 

Observations:

• Yuzuru still has the best combined potential GOE of the Top 6, but Shoma is very close. 
• Nathan has had some average GOE scores comparatively, but he makes them up with high BV. He wins at TES more often than not. 
• The 3F-1Lo-3S is the bane of Javi's existence; it didn't have positive GOE at any competition this season. Why does he still attach the combo to his 3F??

 

If you have any doubts/questions or detect a mistake, let me know.

Thanks for sharing all your hard work here, xeyra! Have you tried calculating Shoma's LP score with a 4Lz (since that seems what he's aiming for)?

[xeyra]

11 minutes ago, unicorn said:

Thanks for sharing all your hard work here, xeyra! Have you tried calculating Shoma's LP score with a 4Lz (since that seems what he's aiming for)?

 

I could but would I calculate it as 4Lz, 4Lz! or 4Lze? So much choice. 

Edit: Added it in to the previous link. Replaced 3Lz with 4Lz.