General Skating Chat

[Sombreuil]

I can't thank you all enough for all the numbers ( at which I am absolutely abysmal) - an unwanted side effect to putting FS on the family calendar is the sudden scrutiny of several mathematically minded people and you are saving my credibility here. No one ever cared about the gymnastics- but they seem to be gradually getting hooked into FS albeit initially as a joke on me!

[Joey]

1 hour ago, fireovertheice said:

To change the subject just for a moment and to continue the observations on "numbers" in the long/free program of Yuzuru and the others top men (and without any kind of negativity towards the others...).

 

Before I have counted the timing of one foot skating in their FS as posted in the general Yuzuru chat:

https://planethanyu.com/topic/3-general-yuzuru-chat/?do=findComment&comment=110593

https://planethanyu.com/topic/3-general-yuzuru-chat/?do=findComment&comment=110604

(but I have already seen that it is a work to do on average in different competition, because there could be some differences: so if you are interested in this, stay tuned...).

 

Now I have counted also the numbers of their crossovers. Here you are the first result of counting:

Yuzuru FS: 27 crossovers (COR)

Javier FS: 34 crossovers (AC)

Nathan FS: 44 crossovers (COR)

Shoma FS: 54 crossovers (SC)

 

Thank you so much for doing these! And it does compliment the time-on-one-foot data quite nicely, doesn't it?

Are you planing to add other men to the list too? Me, selfishly indirectly asking for Boyang

[Sombreuil]

Please?? Boyang has lots of fans among the uninitiated- they like his enthusiasm and verve.

[fireovertheice]

29 minutes ago, Joey said:

 

Thank you so much for doing these! And it does compliment the time-on-one-foot data quite nicely, doesn't it?

Are you planing to add other men to the list too? Me, selfishly indirectly asking for Boyang

 

Yes,  at this point I think so: I am waiting for CoC

 

There is the possibility I'll develop this thing a little bit further with the help of some people of the forum and not, more expert than me in figure skating and other things. We will see. For now it has been interesting enough for me to look - several times !!! - and to count these things. You are forced to note a lot of details.

And again yes, the two aspects are complementary or - at least - go together.

 

It would be interesting to count also the change of direction of blade and/or edges in the one-foot skating time in passes and transitions, or to distinguish the more difficult ones, but I have not time fot this. I will use the little time I can to check in more than one competition to have a reasonable average.

[fireovertheice]

@Sombreuil I love rhythmic gymnastics too :).

 

As for the mathematicians of your family, try to convince them saying what is the reality: that music, dance, FS and RG are all based on mathematics! Without the possibility to count the lenght in time of the sounds and of the movements, there would be none of such things. Present them the thing as this: FS it is just a very beautiful way to count, freeing your soul and your mind at the same time.  .

And if it is done by beautiful and charismatic young people ...also more.

[Sombreuil]

Well they say maths goes alongside music.  Oddly the most gifted (as far as their piano teacher is concerned) of my children is, like me, a total loss at maths.  The other two are technically excellent but don't have the 'touch' - no2 has a devil of a problem memorising the music but once it's in the head we're off with it, no need to stand guard to make sure practice gets done, to somewhere the others can't reach- or so their teacher says.  I suspect if you are able to fuse the two that's where real talent starts.

[Murieleirum]

9 hours ago, fireovertheice said:

That's also why at the present I am not touched by any means by the perfomances of Uno (SP) or Chen (FS), also when they don't have had major errors. You can feel it that they are skating to the music and the programmes that others chose for them, they haven't made them 'theirs' yet.

 

Agree 100%. I sometimes feel at loss when people tell me how much they love Shoma's interpretative skills. I'm like, "where?", but I guess there are many different points of view. I am influenced by my profession, so to me, like many of us here, music is the priority and if there's zero knowledge about what piece you are skating to, it shows. Even if you put on a mask, enter character and give us your best stare. 

 

 

[SSS]

15 hours ago, singcarcom said:

The earthquake was a life changer. But I think even before the earthquake, there was something special about Yuzu. I think having asthma played a part too...He's talented but he never had an easy path. His asthma used to be very bad when he was young, and despite that he trained hard and achieved what he did.

The judges and JSF should also be a part of it...

I still can't believe Yuzu is real...

 

@fireovertheiceThank you so much for the numbers!! I think you can quote your posts to here~ 

Can't wait for some tables

[Xen]

@fireovertheice: thank you for the numbers. 

Now I'm really worried about next season when the men's long will get cut to 4 mins. If we look at the numbers, cutting down one jumping pass isn't really going to reduce much time wise, so I guess the cut in skating time is going to show up in the cuts to step sequences or choreographic sequences? I imagine most guys don't skate fast enough to really maintain complex sequences at a fast enough speed to fit within the time frame, so artistry might really suffer next season? 

 

In this case Yuzu has a slight advantage since he's fast, but he already has the most time dedicated to one-foot turns, transitions and steps, so I'm not sure if it'll work out for him.  Looking at his programs, I'm worried he'll have to cut either the hydroblade or the ina bauer to fit within the time frame. 

[fireovertheice]

@Xen your observation is very pertinent and - sadly - correct. If we take out those 20 or little more secs of jumping and 50 secs of spinning, that are sort of uncuttable because of the score, it is clear that the cut will fall on steps and transitions, a maybe the longer ones (yuzu's hydroblade at COR was around 3.5 secs and the Ina Bauer was around 2.3 secs) or the complexer ones (usually with more than 1 sec on one foot).

 

About the time spent in a program in transitions (turns and steps), and its meaning in a program, it is interesting this short interview with Lori Nichol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n32I2aQOuQ0

 

To note > It is a quite "old" video (2009): see the difference in the timing devote to jump in Chan FS at the time (she says around 8 secs jumping; the time of spinning is not so much different: 45 secs) with the numbers we have seen for these four competition of some of the top men. Of course, it is because of the increasing number of quads.

 

See also what she says about transitions: "(they) are where you shows your blade skills, basically the foundation of skating, how deep your edges are, what kind of lean you have, what kind of (translator says: me...) action you have, and also show your integrity with performance and interpretation, because can you do that complexity in time to the music with great body line.

(....) You get the transition mark based on the complexity that you are doing and how close it is to the element, but overall you should be doing it because there's constant movement in music, it never stops and so we must appear with it with the interpretation of our transition, that's why not just (for) the points".

 

 It is true that rules from 2009 are a little bit changed, but I thinks that this sort of description still fits with nowadays PCS: should be send this video to the judges before each competition ?

[Murieleirum]

Sorry if I won't comment on the time reduction, but on the Italian facebook group a comparing video was shared regarding the step preceding the solo jump in the Short Program with Hanyu, Chen, and Uno.

 

 

In Yuzuru's case: Spread Eagle, quite visible and clear step, immediately preceding the jump. 

Nathan: I actually... don't see the step? What? Please someone help me. 

Shoma: I see something that's supposed to be a step, but it doesn't really look like one so meh.  

[fireovertheice]

Ehhh..@murieleirum, maybe for Nathan they had a vision...or they counted something as step that in my view do not seem a step at all...but maybe other, sure more expert than me, can say something about it ?

 

Nice to look at the protocols for these jumps:

- Yuzuru Hanyu, 4Lo (SP, COR) = given with an < and GOE -2.06 (no comment ...)

- Nathah Chen, 4F (SP, COR) = GOE -1.03

- Shoma Uno, 4L (SP, SC) = GOE + 2.29

 

You can find interesting things about this subject also here: https://twitter.com/SkatingProtocol/status/924257880571891718

P.S. Pay attention in picking other tweets in that account...

[itiahs]

16 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

Sorry if I won't comment on the time reduction, but on the Italian facebook group a comparing video was shared regarding the step preceding the solo jump in the Short Program with Hanyu, Chen, and Uno.

 

 

In Yuzuru's case: Spread Eagle, quite visible and clear step, immediately preceding the jump. 

Nathan: I actually... don't see the step? What? Please someone help me. 

Shoma: I see something that's supposed to be a step, but it doesn't really look like one so meh.  

 

Tried my hand at identifying them from the vid, correct me if i'm wrong

Yuzuru: choctaw, counter, 3, step, outside SE

Nathan: mohawk, chasse, xover, mohawk, step, 3

Shoma: rocker, mohawk, xover, rocker, mohawk

 

Nathan enters 4F with a mohawk, Shoma with a 3 turn so i didn't count those. Nathan's lacking steps, Shoma seems to have tried to put some in.

[itiahs]

Made a slomo 4Lz comparison of these two from similar angles.

[beki]

The time reduction is just the ISU being cheap and stingy imo. They continually erode the difference between the short and long program. Also, cutting down the pairs field and eliminating ice dance compulsories. All to save time and money. We should worry that eventually there will be only one program segment.