General Skating Chat

[Murieleirum]

1 minute ago, Xen said:

Dear, that's 6.0 system...that was the closest we had....>_> and look at the controversies it caused and the blackboxes in judging...

 

Wouldn't slightly changing the factorisation we have now be enough to do the trick? Like... instead of being 120 tes vs 100 PCS, let it factorise so that it will be 120 and 120? I'm not sure if I'm making any sense. I just wanna say I am a musician and have always been terrible at math. I don't know why I'm even talking. *hides herself among the bushes* 

[Xen]

Just now, Murieleirum said:

 

I think cleanliness should be rewarded, but falls are already penalized through deductions. Why putting another 10% off when the skater's already lost -3 points, deduction only, without counting the minus GOE? I think falls are already being penalized enough... 

Well if the deductions were being applied consistently, and ISU actually decides to help clarify and enforce that no 10's can be given for unclean programs. They could also state that after a certain number of falls skaters cannot have above certain points in PCS scores (not all, but some).  But I think if consistency is the point, then the issue isn't so much giving weight 50/50, but to figuring out how to encourage consistency and clean programs. Having a factor to boost PCS in clean programs would be a bit better than  BV devaluation and GOE boost (considering how judges don't follow GOE rules perfectly). Then you might get skaters, like Jason, who skate clean and can get a 10% boost to PCS scores and  gain about 9 points overall, while maybe not podium finish in some cases, in others it could lead to that, as it should. 

[xeyra]

3 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

 

I think cleanliness should be rewarded, but falls are already penalized through deductions. Why putting another 10% off when the skater's already lost -3 points, deduction only, without counting the minus GOE? I think falls are already being penalized enough... 

 

Some people think they're not being penalized enough. Heck, I see people in other forums complain that a fall should automatically deduct all your PCS scoring by a certain amount, as if a fall interfers too much in your overall skating skills or even your interpretation of the music. 

[Murieleirum]

3 minutes ago, Xen said:

Having a factor to boost PCS in clean programs would be a bit better than  BV devaluation and GOE boost (considering how judges don't follow GOE rules perfectly).

 

I'd rather have the judges follow GOE rules perfectly though than having cleanliness being rewarded without considering the other characteristics of the performance 

 

4 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Some people think they're not being penalized enough. Heck, I see people in other forums complain that a fall should automatically deduct all your PCS scoring by a certain amount, as if a fall interfers too much in your overall skating skills or even your interpretation of the music. 

 

I don't agree... look at Yuzuru's fall in Worlds 2012... do I have to say anything else? 

[SparkleSalad]

4 minutes ago, Murieleirum said:

I don't agree... look at Yuzuru's fall in Worlds 2012... do I have to say anything else? 

 

(I hope RJ1 fall is a rank we can attain through super obsessive posting.)

 

ETA (I willed it to happen.)

[Xen]

6 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Some people think they're not being penalized enough. Heck, I see people in other forums complain that a fall should automatically deduct all your PCS scoring by a certain amount, as if a fall interfers too much in your overall skating skills or even your interpretation of the music. 

My understanding of the COP system was that it was written by a freakin' skater, so I'd give the skater who did this thing the benefit of the doubt and grant that the GOE deductions do just that- a penalty to your technical competency. While I see where sometimes falls can deduct in PCS and your experience of a program, I think there are elements, such as musical interpretation, such as transitions etc, which are perfectly capable of being judged independent of jumps, and those should not be affected by falls since the falls do not actually detract. 

[Sombreuil]

49 minutes ago, Xen said:

I would actually argue that the separation of artistic and technical might hurt small feds more than the large feds. So long as they have the combined programs winner, the presitge is going to come from winning the combined programs scores. Which is not too different from the current system-how much presitge do we get from small medals? 

I know I keep referring to gymnastics but as another judged sport with artistic elements the parallels keep cropping up.  The apparatus medals are fun to watch and give the specialists a day in the limelight but it's the all around winner that is remembered as the olympic/world champion- people remember Verniaev as the silver medalist and Whitlock as the bronze- at home they get hype for their golds on PB and F/PH but the majority of people remember who won the all around.

[Murieleirum]

3 minutes ago, SparkleSalad said:

 

(I hope RJ1 fall is a rank we can attain through super obsessive posting.)

 

I dream of falling that dramatically and have over +100,000 people instantly falling in love with me, but I'm getting off topic dnauifnsrg

[xeyra]

7 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

I know I keep referring to gymnastics but as another judged sport with artistic elements the parallels keep cropping up.  The apparatus medals are fun to watch and give the specialists a day in the limelight but it's the all around winner that is remembered as the olympic/world champion- people remember Verniaev as the silver medalist and Whitlock as the bronze- at home they get hype for their golds on PB and F/PH but the majority of people remember who won the all around.

 

Gymnastics doesn't really pretend to be an 'artistic' sport anymore, to be honest. The different apparatus are still mostly technical, with the execution mark grading how you did on it with the proper deductions. The only more artistic exercise, Floor, isn't even that artistic. Rhythmic gymnastics is a bit different because it tends to be a bit more musical but Difficulty is still half of your grade and execution deductions aren't that particularly related to how nicely artistic the program was, just how well it was executed. So while I love gymnastics and the specialization that it allows, while a Beam specialist may be incredible in that apparatus, they may not actually be that well-rounded a gymnast in the end. 

 

This should not be the goal in Figure Skating, to divide between 'athletic' and 'artistic'. It has been and should be to continue to combine both into a 'complete' figure skater. And if you divide, especially with whatever ideas they'll use to compose these two types of programs, you might have less people focusing on finding that balance. 

[Xen]

8 minutes ago, xeyra said:

 

Gymnastics doesn't really pretend to be an 'artistic' sport anymore, to be honest. The different apparatus are still mostly technical, with the execution mark grading how you did on it with the proper deductions. The only more artistic exercise, Floor, isn't even that artistic. Rhythmic gymnastics is a bit different because it tends to be a bit more musical but Difficulty is still half of your grade and execution deductions aren't that particularly related to how nicely artistic the program was, just how well it was executed. So while I love gymnastics and the specialization that it allows, while a Beam specialist may be incredible in that apparatus, they may not actually be that well-rounded a gymnast in the end. 

 

This should not be the goal in Figure Skating, to divide between 'athletic' and 'artistic'. It has been and should be to continue to combine both into a 'complete' figure skater. And if you divide, especially with whatever ideas they'll use to compose these two types of programs, you might have less people focusing on finding that balance. 

And without changes to prevent the scores from GOE inflation or PCS inflation in favor of the larger feds, I'm not sure how smaller feds can compete on the artistic program. And then you have to politik for 2 programs, not one....well if this goes through, 2022 the last total package skating generation....

[Sombreuil]

My point wasn't  really emphasising the artistic bit but what happens to the 'smaller contest' medals - you remember Uchimura was world champion AA in 2015 - you don't necessarily remember that he won the HB as well.

(Perhaps artistic is the wrong word - compare Uchimura and Leyva at that HB World final - not much in it components wise but though a lot of american commentators talked up Ls 'energy' his legs were all over the place, his arms were bent, he just didn't have the lines, the neatness, the elegance of Uchimura, which is why U won.)

i completely agree that the athletic and artistic shouldn't be split.  There is no comparable division in figure skating to the apparatus finals.

[xeyra]

8 minutes ago, Sombreuil said:

My point wasn't  really emphasising the artistic bit but what happens to the 'smaller contest' medals - you remember Uchimura was world champion AA in 2015 - you don't necessarily remember that he won the HB as well.

(Perhaps artistic is the wrong word - compare Uchimura and Leyva at that HB World final - not much in it components wise but though a lot of american commentators talked up Ls 'energy' his legs were all over the place, his arms were bent, he just didn't have the lines, the neatness, the elegance of Uchimura, which is why U won.)

i completely agree that the athletic and artistic shouldn't be split.  There is no comparable division in figure skating to the apparatus finals.

 

Yes, that was mostly my point. What works in gymnastics to award the specialization wouldn't work in Figure Skating with a division between athletic and artistic, when the goal has always been a good balance between both. Sure, some can be stronger in jumps, others in interpretation and performance, but ISU should find a way to reward the later more comparatively to the points obtained with the first, instead of... just separating them and awarding them medals and then I guess sum up the points on each program to come up with their 'ideal well-rounded skater' and medal that one too. And in the end, you didn't see the well-rounded skater bring both athletic and artistic together, you just saw them being good enough at each separately. 

[Forcefield]

Some people have been saying, 'Wait I thought the SP was the athletic portion and FS the artistic' (okay, I may have gotten that wrong or swapped around, but) instead of dividing it into 'artistic' and 'athletic' if ISU wants to pass something similar they should just go back to redefining the SP and FS and changing required elements for each. Perhaps more artistic emphasis in one or the other.

 

I still think if judging was as strict across the board and with minor rule changes this shouldn't need to happen anyway.

[MrPudding]

 

[Xen]

The more I think about this, the more questions I have.

1) I might have overlooked something, but is there a guideline out on what is a +1 to +5 GOE under the new GOE system now? I thought there were only 8 bullet points for GOE...where did 9 and 10 come from?

2) Has anyone else figured out that weird logic that they're proposing to amend to the +/-5 GOE range? To quote:

"The interval between the scores would be set at 10 percent of the base value, as opposed to the current system, which has no standardized relationship to the base value.

For instance, a +2 on a triple lutz now adds 1.4 to a base value of 6.0, a 23 percent bonus, while a +2 on a quad lutz adds 2.0 to a base value of 13.6, a 14 percent bonus."

 

Those 2 combined makes me think that for all the talk of quads being bad, they're making it very difficult for non-quad skaters to actually catch up on the tech component and could potentially cement the non-quad skaters as never in the top 6.

 

So, out of curiosity, anyone want to do math/excel practices?  I'm curious what this would actually do to the current men's and ladies skaters (think ladies would be even scarier). If we apply the top scores of the top 6 men this season, and do that weird math thingy that Bianchetti is talking about on GOEs, using the new reduced BV system, what kind of results would we get? Would we actually get the balance that they supposedly are striving for, would any weird results come out?

 

Edit: anyone want to take a shot at Jason Brown and Misha Ge's scores too?