General Yuzuru Chat

[Kat]

2 minutes ago, Yuzurella said:

 

If this "sport" would be judged fairly (i.e. according to the ISU's own theoretical rules), then Yuzu's GOE and PCS scores should be clearly higher than Nathan's. In fact, Nathan's PCS should be lower than those of quite a couple of other skaters, if you take into consideration the quality of skating.

 

 

The whole thing was a mess. If they lowered Nathan, that would put him behind Yuma. They"d need to re-evaluate them both, but that would require being consistent in their scoring in the 1st place..ugh. The whole "judging" was a mess. I still assert Yuzuru should have gotten Silver. 

[yuzuangel]

3 minutes ago, Kat said:

The whole thing was a mess. If they lowered Nathan, that would put him behind Yuma. They"d need to re-evaluate them both, but that would require being consistent in their scoring in the 1st place..ugh. The whole "judging" was a mess. I still assert Yuzuru should have gotten Silver. 

He should have, but I'm not too angry about it, because I feel like Worlds is basically only win or lose nowadays. Silver or bronze, meh whatever.

[Kat]

7 minutes ago, yuzuangel said:

He should have, but I'm not too angry about it, because I feel like Worlds is basically only win or lose nowadays. Silver or bronze, meh whatever.

I'm salty about it 😂. Ngl. i find that the hardest thing to swallow from it all.

 

The other thing, and I know this is petty of me and I'm working on it...but the way Yuma acted. I couldn't help compare that there was a time Yuzuru celebrated a win and got damned for it, but there Yuma was and no one I saw was calling him a brat, or arrogant...the double standards just irk me.

[shanshani]

1 hour ago, MssSwan said:

I was wondering about it too, playing safe i think the best choice would be the 4A, 4S maybe a 4Lo even though I don't think putting a 4A and a 4Lo in the same program is a good idea (at least not now) so maybe a 4T+3T and 4T+Eu+3S? Maybe going with the Toe and the Sal would be better since he's very familiarized with this jumps. This thing about the 3A being a requirement in this case is something I'm indeed very curious, technically the 4A is still a quad and we would still need a 3A, so I don't know what ISU's gonna decide, they probably didn't even expected that someone would be crazy enough to try this on a high level competition   

There's 7 jumping passes, so unless Yuzu is going to do 7 quads he's going to have at least one 3A if he wants to maximize BV. Even if we keep the 3Lo, there's still 6 jumping passes left, so unless he wants to downgrade from 3A to 3Lz/3F for no real benefit or does something crazy like 4A/4Lz/4Lo/3Lo/4S3T/4Teu3S/4T3T, he's going to have a 3A. I believe in Yuzu and everything, but that's a bit beyond the bounds of plausibility. The 4A would count for the axel rule though--the rule is that there has to be an axel, not that it has to be 3A (or else skaters without 3A wouldn't be able to compete). 

[Paskud]

1 minute ago, Terrapin said:

I never said that. I think that because of this lack of consistency it feels like every time Yuzu has to prove himself to the judges somehow. And I also think judges don't really get Yuzu's whole philosophy of skating: at the end of the day they're going to favour the guy who does all these hard quads one after the other. Lastly, because of his icon status, I really think they're way more picky with him. 

106 for a program with one shaky landing isn't just being picky when at CoR18 for the same he got 110+ and no, backloaded combo won't give you 4 additional points in BV.

+3 across the board for a perfectly executed combo (and camel spin) that hits all GOE bullets isn't just being picky.

And [redacted]'s pic with Kogan isn't just delivering.

[SuzyQ]

Has this been already posted?

 

Asahi Shimbun photos:

 

https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASP3X007HP3WUEHF001.html

 

This post has been tagged by yuzuangel as [NEWS].

[Kat]

1 minute ago, SuzyQ said:

Has this been already posted?

 

Asahi Shimbun photos:

 

https://www.asahi.com/articles/ASP3X007HP3WUEHF001.html

 

If it has been, I missed it, so thank you! 😍

[rockstaryuzu]

A note about speed in figure skating.

 

I was scrolling Twitter during the WC and came across an utter 'gem' *sarcasm*  amongst the replies to one of Meagan Duhamel's posts about Nathan's PCS score inflation. Someone established amongst the figure skating world (who I won't name) said  that judges are taught that speed can be used to hide sloppiness in the step sequences. 

 

It was totally illuminating. It explains why so many laboured, clunky, ungainly, utterly ugly StepSeq get high scores when Yuzu's lovely, lyrical, fast-flowing footwork earns bubkus -the judges are mistaking his speed and skill for an attempt to cover up sloppiness. 

 

This tells me two things:

1. judges need to stop using visual shortcuts like a skater's speed to determine score, and really truly look at what's going on where blade meets ice  

2. Yuzu's speed works against him when it comes to scoring and slowing the StepSeqs down might force the judges to give him more points

3. ISU needs to stop training judges to take shortcuts in scoring skaters

 

I am fully confident that even though Yuzu goes fast, he is doing all his steps and footwork correctly. It's not in the man's vocabulary to be any other way. 

 

But it does explain why someone slow like Nathan can get more points. 

[Paskud]

7 minutes ago, rockstaryuzu said:

A note about speed in figure skating.

 

I was scrolling Twitter during the WC and came across an utter 'gem' *sarcasm*  amongst the replies to one of Meagan Duhamel's posts about Nathan's PCS score inflation. Someone established amongst the figure skating world (who I won't name) said  that judges are taught that speed can be used to hide sloppiness in the step sequences. 

 

It was totally illuminating. It explains why so many laboured, clunky, ungainly, utterly ugly StepSeq get high scores when Yuzu's lovely, lyrical, fast-flowing footwork earns bubkus -the judges are mistaking his speed and skill for an attempt to cover up sloppiness. 

 

This tells me two things:

1. judges need to stop using visual shortcuts like a skater's speed to determine score, and really truly look at what's going on where blade meets ice  

2. Yuzu's speed works against him when it comes to scoring and slowing the StepSeqs down might force the judges to give him more points

3. ISU needs to stop training judges to take shortcuts in scoring skaters

 

I am fully confident that even though Yuzu goes fast, he is doing all his steps and footwork correctly. It's not in the man's vocabulary to be any other way. 

 

But it does explain why someone slow like Nathan can get more points. 

How on earth someone can be fast and sloppy at the same time? You need to have some edges to gain speed, especially during StSq filled with required turns.

[SitTwizzle]

Just now, rockstaryuzu said:

A note about speed in figure skating.

 

I was scrolling Twitter during the WC and came across an utter 'gem' *sarcasm*  amongst the replies to one of Meagan Duhamel's posts about Nathan's PCS score inflation. Someone established amongst the figure skating world (who I won't name) said  that judges are taught that speed can be used to hide sloppiness in the step sequences. 

 

It was totally illuminating. It explains why so many laboured, clunky, ungainly, utterly ugly StepSeq get high scores when Yuzu's lovely, lyrical, fast-flowing footwork earns bubkus -the judges are mistaking his speed and skill for an attempt to cover up sloppiness. 

 

This tells me two things:

1. judges need to stop using visual shortcuts like a skater's speed to determine score, and really truly look at what's going on where blade meets ice  

2. Yuzu's speed works against him when it comes to scoring and slowing the StepSeqs down might force the judges to give him more points

3. ISU needs to stop training judges to take shortcuts in scoring skaters

 

I am fully confident that even though Yuzu goes fast, he is doing all his steps and footwork correctly. It's not in the man's vocabulary to be any other way. 

 

But it does explain why someone slow like Nathan can get more points. 

It must be said that judges and tech panels cannot see everything. So they have to use shortcuts. (This reminds me an elementary school teacher pretending an 8-year-old pupil was cheating because she could answer immediately any calculus the teacher would ask.)

Artificial intelligence could tell, a minima, every bullet (or call) of every element, step sequence, spins and jumps. And much more in fact.

[shanshani]

1 minute ago, rockstaryuzu said:

A note about speed in figure skating.

 

I was scrolling Twitter during the WC and came across an utter 'gem' *sarcasm*  amongst the replies to one of Meagan Duhamel's posts about Nathan's PCS score inflation. Someone established amongst the figure skating world (who I won't name) said  that judges are taught that speed can be used to hide sloppiness in the step sequences. 

 

It was totally illuminating. It explains why so many laboured, clunky, ungainly, utterly ugly StepSeq get high scores when Yuzu's lovely, lyrical, fast-flowing footwork earns bubkus -the judges are mistaking his speed and skill for an attempt to cover up sloppiness. 

 

This tells me two things:

1. judges need to stop using visual shortcuts like a skater's speed to determine score, and really truly look at what's going on where blade meets ice  

2. Yuzu's speed works against him when it comes to scoring and slowing the StepSeqs down might force the judges to give him more points

3. ISU needs to stop training judges to take shortcuts in scoring skaters

 

I am fully confident that even though Yuzu goes fast, he is doing all his steps and footwork correctly. It's not in the man's vocabulary to be any other way. 

 

But it does explain why someone slow like Nathan can get more points. 

I do notice that the speed of Yuzu's turns makes it difficult to see his edges clearly in real time. Sometimes his turns look like they're done on shallow edges to me when I watch at full speed, but when I slow it down (so I can identify the steps and turns--Yuzu's StSq are like super hard mode for step identification because everything happens so quickly), I actually see that his edges are pretty deep and don't have any trouble recognizing the curve he's on. Someone like Jason is a lot easier to "read"  in real time because he does his steps at a slower tempo, which makes it a lot easier to notice his edge quality and evaluate the quality of the turn in general. 

[Figure_Frenzy]

1 hour ago, rockstaryuzu said:

Totally ignores the fact that Kolyada is fully capable of challenging and even beating Nathan, not to mention so could Shoma on a good day. 

 

Yeah, but only if they bring it on the ice. (when it truly counts). How stable is Kolyada now anyway? If Yuzu (which is actually consistent) is perceived by the "media"/"judges" as iNcOnSIsteNT then Kolyada and Shoma are going to be perceived as even much more inconsistent, aren't they? Again, I recognize their capability, but as it is with Yuzu, the media/judges' perception factor also plays a role on how they'd be scored.

 

(I mean, sure, Rusfed might eventually decide to fully back Kolyada come Olympic time (and he performs "consistently", then in this case it would be indeed a more engaging narrative for the gold medal struggle)  but I am not holding my breath for that... Shoma gets full backing from JSF, yeah, but how far does JSF's backing actually go abroad, really?)

[MssSwan]

34 minutes ago, Terrapin said:

You cannot say Nathan won over Yuzu here because he was overscored. Sure his score may benefit from an inflation which is partly a result of his consistency, but Nathan won fair and square here. And once again, consistency is something Yuzu has always striven for, constantly pushing himself while suffering from asthma, lacking stamina and being prone to ankle injury. Nathan seems to have a better constitution than Yuzu on this point, while Yuzu fought to erase his weaknesses. His stamina drastically improved but he is still likely to be bothered by his asthma and the last years saw him facing injury over injury. This also explains why consistency-wise, he is a total wild card. There haven’t been many competitions in which Yuzu was perfect in both the short and free programmes. I was pleasantly surprised he was for Japanese nationals, and I’m sure this is because he had given his body the necessary rest and had reached the right balance in himself, while he overworked himself on the 4A before coming into worlds, which could also explain why he was asthma acted up this way. Knowing Yuzu’s history, I wasn’t sure he could repeat the feat he did at nationals while I had no doubt Chen would be as consistent as ever. I really wished I could have seen a perfect free programme from Yuzu to see whether he could have won : and I’m

sure it was within his reach. Last thing : I saw Nathan vs Yuzu live twice, and although my heart has always been with Yuzu, I have to say he tends to lack speed once he’s tired or had a really bad fall, while Nathan seemed quite fast and very much at ease. Sure the artistry is incomparable, but at the end of the day Nathan does the job. 

First of all Nathan was indeed overscored here he did not scored over 100 in the short to help him reach over 320 in this competition even though this was not why he won over Yuzuru (at least not why he won here). Nathan have a better stamina as you say and he also have good jumps but if he's not overscored why is Vincent Zhou getting such low scores if he's doing pretty much everything Nathan is doing? Vincent have amazing jumps and can pull out a program with many quads without many problems even though his PC's could've been better and he could add more transitions like Nathan who could do the same thing and improve his programs, but Vincent is not out there scoring 330 or close to this because he still have things he could do better like Nathan, when Vincent appeared he was the one everyone thought could beat Nathan and in the future he is probably the one ISU is gonna pick to be Nathan's next "rival".

 

Yuzuru is totally capable of keeping up with the younger skaters and he could beat Nathan if he wasn't so overscored, have any of you guys watched the Skate America and Saket Canada 2019 and compared the two of them? Nathan was first after the short with 102.71 and he won earning 196.38 in the long and 299.09 in total, in the other hand Yuzuru got in the short 109.60 and he won earning 212.99 in the long and 322.59 in total. So Nathan turn into this beast and earn this massive scores only when he's competing against Yuzuru? Very convenient if you think about it he does not achieve this massive scores normally like the world record 335, pretty much all of the competitions he achieve something close to this is when he's competing against Yuzu it's like ridiculous  

[shanshani]

I don't think a clean Misha or Shoma would go above a clean Nathan. Maybe they should, but they're all behind him on BV (Misha especially) and aren't going to get any extra judging candies vs Nathan. It is true that based on the current judging, a clean Nathan is untouchable unless Yuzu can successfully upgrade to 5 quads and skate clean. That certainly shouldn't be the case (I don't think a single quad should be enough to make up the difference that should exist between them in components--like, sure, if Sasha Trusova lands 5 quads and her opponents land 1, then give it to her because however behind her components are, they aren't 4 quads behind. But 1 quad difference? That's a gap that should be bridgeable), but realistically it is true.

[shanshani]

4 minutes ago, MssSwan said:

First of all Nathan was indeed overscored here he did not scored over 100 in the short to help him reach over 320 in this competition even though this was not why he won over Yuzuru (at least not why he won here). Nathan have a better stamina as you say and he also have good jumps but if he's not overscored why is Vincent Zhou getting such low scores if he's doing pretty much everything Nathan is doing? Vincent have amazing jumps and can pull out a program with many quads without many problems even though his PC's could've been better and he could add more transitions like Nathan who could do the same thing and improve his programs, but Vincent is not out there scoring 330 or close to this because he still have things he could do better like Nathan, when Vincent appeared he was the one everyone thought could beat Nathan and in the future he is probably the one ISU is gonna pick to be Nathan's next "rival".

 

Yuzuru is totally capable of keeping up with the younger skaters and he could beat Nathan if he wasn't so overscored, have any of you guys watched the Skate America and Saket Canada 2019 and compared the two of them? Nathan was first after the short with 102.71 and he won earning 196.38 in the long and 299.09 in total, in the other hand Yuzuru got in the short 109.60 and he won earning 212.99 in the long and 322.59 in total. So Nathan turn into this beast and earn this massive scores only when he's competing against Yuzuru? Very convenient if you think about it he does not achieve this massive scores normally like the world record 335, pretty much all of the competitions he achieve something close to this is when he's competing against Yuzu it's like ridiculous  

Nah, Nathan is far superior to Vincent Zhou. Vincent Zhou doesn't tend to forget the music as much when he's jumping, but that's about it. Nathan has clean technique, while Vincent's quads are basically just slightly overrotated triples. There's a reason he had such a disaster skate at World's--it's his under-rotation problems coming back to bite him.