CupidsBow

his 4T is already real close to being as stable as his 3A. Yuzu has two best friends - 4T and 3A

I had to flop on the floor at the last part guess he's not going to r**** after pyeongchang i figured he wasn;t going to anyway but i feel even more sure now

A toxic one. Particularly when it comes to discussing other skaters. Which is a shame because plenty of users/discussions on here are really nice but it is why I typically avoid talking to certain people on here and will exit out of threads once certain users pop up. I think I need to start avoiding specific threads in general now too. Pity. I think this thread (general chat) and anything strictly Hanyu related is fine but... I mean, I like it here, but it's a fact that there's hanyu and general skating fans that do not like this website. But they think the other skating forum is a hell-hole too so *shrug* But, back on topic....... Zuzu teacher *_*

I mean, they don;t mind their posts being shared elsewhere. They specifically do not want to be linked to this forum. This website already had a certain reputation and quite a few people would rather not be linked to it.

You should be aware though that some twitter accounts regularly posted here do not like this site and are not happy that they get quoted on this forum.

(I mean, it's cool to discuss other skaters it just depends on your tone and intention when doing it. I thought it was clear during the previous discussion that the problem was not the content of criticism but the manner in which it was delivered. I don't intend to re-engage with any of that though.) I think the problem with the 'get the quads now, worry about technique (Shoma), or PCS (Nathan/Boyang) later strategy is they are all left playing catch up - but that's how it goes for boys rising up in seniors from juniors with only a season or two to go against more . Patrick and Javi also have a bit of catching up to do, but they can add maybe one more quad and still be competitive at the highest level because they have strong foundations in PCS and good technique so successful jumps are high in GOE. Then you have Yuzu who has been steadily building his tech, skills and performance ability pretty much all at the same time with no area taking precedent over another. Of the young 3 I think Shoma has a good foundation in PCS now but I think his limited interpretation/music choices may start to bite him in the ass at some point and his issues with jump technique is definitely going to bite him sooner rather than later, if not in injury (I hope not) then because of tighter judging. In the long term, he might have a period of struggling if he does start really try to correct him jump technique since it will mess him up for a while. I like Shoma and he has expressed interest in staying for a long time so whether he's pushed by judges being a bit harsher with his GOE and his tech calls or just not wanting to irreversibly injure his hips/knees I do hope he shows more progress in improving the quality of his jumps not just the quantity of the jumps he can kinda-sorta do. As much as I like Shoma though...I'm not crazy about what we've seen for his programs next season. Loco made him really stand out...I'm not so sure next seasons programs will do that. So far he's a bit similar to Javi in terms of sticking to a comfort zone, unfortunately, Javi's comfort zone is entertaining programs that audiences easily connect to and Shoma's comfort zone is...not...that. Nathan's whole strategy at the moment seems real short-sighted and short-term but he has a lot of potential if he does try to build more complex programs with more to offer in TR and other areas of PCS. He doesn't seem all that committed to a long game though, guess it will depend on how he does a PC and if he decides to aim for 2022. Idk I didn't really warm up to his skating at all last season and 6 quad rumours don't really excite my for next season either. He might have another solid SP followed by a front-loaded quad heavy free. Which I'm kinda meh about. Boyang seems to be playing the best long game imo in that he had pretty solid jump technique, a good amount of quads and is steadily trying to improve his skating skills, his programs in general and his performance/interpretation, which will start paying off for him a lot sooner than, say, Shoma trying to fix his technique if judges start coming down on him. Last season he proved he has the performance ability and can connect with the crowd to get them on his side and invested in his program. If he builds up his SS and TR and generally gains a bit more polish to his programs he can be a strong contender in the future. As for shorter term, Shoma and Nathan have the best chance of getting some pay-off at Pyeongchang but something would have to go disastrously wrong with Yuzu for any of them to get gold. Yuzu's strategy is very strong and he has been playing a strong long game since he was ... like...in juniors. It'ss depend on whose risks pull through on the day. Maybe Nathan's risks with putting everything in TES despite so-so PCS and so-so GOE will pay off, or maybe he'll have an issue with a jump. maybe Shoma's risk in boosting his BV as much as he can without securing good technique will pay off, or maybe he'll do a forward entry flutz and lose 9 points. Also, both of them can get rekt if Javi and Patrick have a good two days, whether they up their tech or not. If Javi adds the 4lo and Patrick adds his 4F, and they have a good time at the Olympics (since they have the experience so may be able to have a better handle on nerves and will hopefully both maintain good physical condition) then honestly the lower BVs won't mean much. Shoma might be able to sneak onto the podium but if Team Uncles have two solid programs, they can head off the sQuad.

Look, my problem with what you're saying is you seem to think he is going to try it, not care if it's a wrong edge and UR, and count on the judges just giving him full BV and a neutral/+1 GOE whereas I'm more thinking he's going to do it and hope he can luck out, execute a passable 4lz (!) and not do a completely shit one. He's taking a risk and hoping it will pay off, sure, but he's not doing it hoping he can do an awful attempt and get full BV and + GOE, he's doing it hoping he can deliver a semi-good attempt when he needs to. Might he plan which comps are less risky to do that at? Maybe. It would probably be better if he just didn't add the 4lz at all until he fixed his edge but this is what he thinks he needs to have a shot at winning. Whatever. Have fun with your tin-foil hats. I'm going to sleep.

Bad judging and inconsistent judging is the fault of the judges and is up to the ISU to deal with. MAYBE Shoma/his coaching team is taking advantage of some preference being shown to him and dragging their heels/not bothering to fix his technique because there is no/little incentive to do so, but that is something the JUDGES need to change. Shoma does need to fix his technique, his coaches do need to address the bad practices - I agree with that! But anything to do with how he is being judged is not directly his fault unless you can provide some kind of proof that his team or the JSF or whoever is doing some dirty dealing with the judges to make sure he gets preferential treatment. I do see that judges tend to be soft on him, i do not like it, i do not think it is his doing or his fault.

Saying it's a strategy is ridiculous though. We might not see an improvement and he might say he's trying but he is not going to add the 4lz and have it planned that he'll use a wrong edge and UR and not get it called because there is no way he will know that it won't be called, he is more likely to be trying to make the best out of a jump he knows is shaky at best and hope he doesn't make a huge error on the day. If he has a wrong edge that isn't called that's bad judging and not his fault. If he has clear and obvious under-rotation that isn't marked that's bad judging and is not his fault. You are making it seem like something way more nefarious than 'he's probably going to chance it and hope for the best' and that's the problem I'm having with you right now. He cannot strategize to have URs and edge calls over looked, he can decide the potential reward for attempting the lz is worth the risk and chance it, but he can't bet on his not getting penalised for a bad attempt. I am not disagreeing with everything you are saying but the core of your argument is 'he is doing it knowing he won't get calls' which suggests some shady shit from him or his team.

Lol really. I can agree that the going for the 4lz is not the greatest idea - he doesn't need it, the lz isn't a good jump for him, and training a 4lz is unlikely to help with his lz issues . But neither me nor you know what his training plans are or what he is doing in all of his training sessions or what his team plans are. Maybe his team aren't the greatest and he needs someone to intervene, i dont know. We'll see how he goes through the season. What I objected to was not Shoma's technique being bad or the 4lz being a questionable idea. Maybe read my posts. My objection was the idea he's using it all as a strategy. Which is ridiculous. Off technique is his problem and his coaching teams' problem but off judging is not his fault and frankly, some of you have a nasty habit of exaggerating issues and calling judging a sham just because you don't personally agree with every call. If it's clear and obvious the jump had a problem and it wasn't called - that's bad judging. If you had to watch it HD at half speed 8 times to pin point the problem then it's not really that great of a crime that the tech panel missed it.

If Shoma got more calls for under-rotation or incorrect edges or lower GOE because of his rather weak landings and lack of jump height, I think Boyang could have a slight advantage but I think it would be fairly even. It would come down to individual performances. though tbh i don't particularly think shoma's PR/UR-ing is as prolific as some users on here suggest. His jumps aren't the best and he has a tendency for it but it's not every jump.

That was not what you suggested in your initial post. You are back-peddling. He might be beginning to work on his edge and is hoping to improve it while training the 4lz. Who knows. Do I expect him to have a perfect 4lz all the time when he adds it? No. No one does. All his fans know and joke that he's adding a 4flz. And he should get edge calls for it when he flutzes. He doesn't have the time to fix his technique before Pyeongchang. He's only had 2 seasons in seniors and in those 2 seasons he's mostly been trying to get the quads to be competitive, rushing it and holding on to bad technique. A bad idea in the long term? Yes. But all he can really do is try, do what he can with his current technique, maybe try to smooth it out the best he can in off season and get through the Olympic season. Like I said earlier, the next Olympic cycle is the time to overhaul his jump technique - not this season. We'll have to see if he does. He might have to hope his bad technique won't be called, I'm willing to bet more than that he's hoping his bad technique won't come out too strongly in competition though; that his 4lz attempt will stay on the right edge or at least be on the flat side and not an outright wrong edge or that he can control his PR/UR enough so that he's getting most of the rotations in the air and less likely to get a downgrade. I don't think his team is building a whole strategy around the idea that he will never get called by a tech panel. I think they are more likely to be building a strategy around minimising his jump technique/dealing with it as much as they can and hoping for the best. Your first post made it sound like he was being super shady working out where he can do a 4lz<< e and not get it called so he can lazily flop into a bad jump and still get the full BV for it. That's very different to being unimpressed with his technique, thinking adding a 4lz is a mistake and being disgruntled he's not visibly doing a lot to fix his jump technique before Pyeongchang.

but this is one video clip of one jump he did in one practice session. You don't know what conversations he is having with the people coaching him or what he's been trying in other practice sessions. You're looking at one example and deciding based on that he's making no effort at all to fix his edge and is conspiring to influence judging to get points/titles he might not deserve by avoiding edge calls and UR calls. That's what is bullshit. He absolutely needs to fix his jump technique and absolutely needs to get the incentive to do so from better judging - no one disagrees with that. But altering technique takes time and has risks, and the judging is not Shoma's fault. He could get called for his edges/UR/PR any time at any competition, it is way too risky for him to purposely use bad technique on the assumption judges won't penalise him for it because that kind of luck is bound to run out. He can't know for sure that he won't get the calls. That kind of strategy is bound to blow up in his face at some point.

He maybe needs a boot up his ass and the judges maybe need to at least be consistent across all skaters with their leniency on certain things or (preferably) tighten up their judging and call things that need to be called but it is hilarious that you seem to think it's all part of his grand plan to 'cheat' his way to the top. He knows full well that when Yuzu goes clean, he goes flawless and when Shoma goes clean he's squeaking by on iffy technique. He knows that even with a 4lz (e - called or not) he won't beat a clean Yuzuru. He knows he has to work on his jump technique. If he wins over Hanyu on an occasion where Yuzu hasn't made a string of costly errors, sure get mad, but Shoma isn't some evil mastermind trying to cheat anyone. He's never been a strong jumper and rushed to get quads, picking up some bad habits and bad technique that needs to be smoothed out but in his mind now probably isn't the time, seeing how it's the Olympic season and at least for now he's landing his dodgy quads with little repercussions, trying to upheave his technique would completely mess with all of his jumps and he'd see a huge drop in consistency before he sees any improvement. It's a job to deal with the next Olympic cycle, especially since he's not suffering much point-wise from his poor technique - but that is on the judges and it's ISU's/the judges' job to adjust the judging to be fair. It's fine to not like 'shortcuts' and to criticise Shoma's technique but suggesting he's building some plot and getting judges on side to never call his edges or UR is ridiculous.

Lol do you really think Shoma is sat somewhere evil cackling to himself because he can pre-rotate all his quads and get away with it? Like you think he is using bad technique strategically and just pretending to have an interest in fixing it? We can all agree his jumps need to be called more/get lower GOE/be addressed for iffy technique in general - his hardcore fans all know he's flutzing and should get edge calls whenever he adds it - but judging is on the judges and tech calls are on the tech panel. If he pre-rotates his jumps and rarely gets downgrades then, of course, he's not in a rush to fix it, but that doesn't mean he's building a strategy around pre-roating/using the wrong edge and never getting called on it, especially knowing his good luck with not getting jumps called won't last. Don't be so ridiculous.

I would be a bit surprised if judging gets harsher around olympics because those big scores sure do make headlines and get attention, something the isu and the olympics comittee will want to promote the sport and the olympics. the season after pyeongchang though? yeah i see judging getting harsher, hopefully with tech panel calls and the pcs corridor getting closed. I like Shoma, I enjoyed his programs last season but I do want to see him improve his jump technique and break out of his comfort zone music/performance wise after pyeongchang

If he attempts a 4lz and gets the full bv, its 13.6 points 4lz e is bv 9.5 and -2 goe (I think?) so like 7.1 points 4lz< e would have the bv knocked down to 8.4 and -3 goe (i think) so 4.4 points so if he were to get called on his edge and his UR the attempt wouldn't be worth the effort. he'd be better off with an okay triple. Honestly, I think as the novelty wears off the 4lz/4f/4los we'll see the errors being called more consistently. I get the feeling the judges are being sort of lenient because they're impressed by the attempt. that will wear off as they become more common place/

yes, and when it is obvious it should be called. No one disagrees with that.

it's always the case that as someone gets more popular it gets harder and harder to interact with fans (do signs, take pictures etc) because it's impossible to be fair and not leave someone feeling disappointed, and it's too socially/emotionally taxing.

Shoma has a lot of work to do. I don't think he's planning on adding the 4lz immediately. If he jumps with that clear of a wrong edge and UR in competition then yeah it should be and likely will be called and the points he's get for it would not be worth the effort. He's only training it now. He can't magically fix it over one off season but he can make some progress on it at least. He has problems with him jump technique. He's not the only one. I do wish the judges would maybe be a touch harsher so there was more incentive to fix those technique issues, or at least so a good triple was worth more than a wanky quad attempt but it's not like the judges have all the resources and time fans do when they are making calls. They can't comb through hq slow-mos of every jump multiple times to find every error and I guess Shoma's been passable more than he has been obviously UR.

I dont usually do much artwork so it's no masterpiece but a lil seimei attempt http://imgur.com/a/LyehD

What would I do if I somehow saw Yuzu in public.... Idk. I've met idols before but only at schedules and stuff, though I did bump into one in the street (he recognised that we spotted him immediately and was like 'hi! give me your phone!' to take selcas XD) idk I wouldn't take pictures of him sneakily. I'm a stickler of when it's okay/not okay to take photos (unless told its ok or invited to take photos) and I'm awkward about asking for selcas because I know its hard for idols/whatever to say no to fans without being worried about looking like an asshole (the only times i've touched/hugged my idol is because he grabbed me lol). I'd probably just smile at him, and if it didn't seem like he was busy maybe tell him i think he's great or something and quickly shuffle away. I wouldn't want to bother him.

I think expressing disappointment in his choices is one thing and extensive criticism going as far as saying he will not deserve to win at the Olympics because of this decision is another. I also think some of the criticism of the decision goes too far; suggesting he has no artistic merit? for these programs? the fuck? It does make me hope Yuzu will stay on for a few more seasons to experiment more with different kinds of music and push out more unique programs (it also makes me hopeful he will do this seeing as he expressed an interest in doing this but has pretty much spent this Olympic cycle refining Ballade and building his skills to pull off Seimei even better the second time around) but like it has been said elsewhere, there's nothing in the rules about a limit to reusing programs so hoping the judges penalise him for doing so (or reward others for not reusing a program) is just petty. I think seeing both programs again, with more difficult layouts and alternations to choreography, is just going to show how much Yuzuru has improved since the last time they were performed. ETA: Also... Olympics get a lot of casual viewers who don't keep up with the sport and only watch when Oly rolls around. As FS fans surely you'd want the best skaters to be displaying their best programs to show the sport at its absolute peak when the audience is at its highest? Hanyu picked up a lot of new fans who got more invested in the sport at Sochi. The men's event is incredibly exciting at the moment - if Pyeongchang is anything close to Helsinki Worlds a lot of that casual Olympic audience will be a lot more interested in the sport than before. Especially with Yuzu showing his best programs so far. I think both programs encapsulate a lot of Yuzu's appeal in the aesthetic, the technical, the display of skating skills, the graceful and gentle beauty of Ballade and the fierceness of Seimei. Yuzu has his crazy popularity because he offers a lot to the audience on a lot of different levels. I will not be surprised if there is a flood of even more Hanyu fans after Pyeongchang. (esp if he has a more playful exhibition piece. that would be a triple kill tbh). We'll see about others' programs as the season starts but right now we know that when it comes to appealing to the general audience and using the Olympics as a way to promote the sport, Yuzu has a lot of potential. Javi also has a lot to offer the audience, Boyang has a lot of charm (seeing as how his programs last year made everyone just fall in love with him) but we'll see if his new programs get that charm across. The other top men could fall either way depending on their programs - but at least we know for sure Yuzuru will have hella impact on the casual crowd.

ehhh I get that Ballade for a 3rd season is not as exciting as him getting a new SP (or bringing back smth else, like if he brought back étude) but it's a solid choice with solid reasoning behind it and has a high chance of yielding good results. I get the feeling the plan for SP was different at some point but the sad nose-drive LGC had in the second half of the season shook Yuzu's confidence, which would make for a bad condition to introduce a new SP. Ballade is something he can skate confidently with, up the technical, add some additional difficulty and skate his best to. And I certainly still enjoy past renditions of the program, I will enjoy future performances too. People complaining it's not exciting or is somehow a cop-out are overlooking the reasoning behind that choice. With Seimei...honestly, I don't understand why Seimei is the one getting people worked up. Even after Seimei was announced I would have thought the complaints about 'two recycled programs' would be more directed at Ballade. Everyone, Hanyu uber or not, has said that Seimei was Olympic material since NHK. The reasons for using it are way clearer than Ballade. And with the promise of upgrades, it's still exciting to think about, even if it's going to be Seimei's second season. It's like...I'm not looking forward to another free program where there's 4-5 front-loaded quads rammed into the start of a program with no content between them but when you have so many skaters saying they'll do a 5 or 6 quad program you know that's what you're going to get (except for from Hanyu, who actually tries to put out a well-balanced program, same can be said for Javi and Patrick if they opt to up their quad content too) but I can't fault the idea behind it. People just need to remember that, while performance and audience enjoyment is important, these skaters are not doing competitive programs for you, they are doing them for the judges and they are doing what they can to win. Does Yuzu know that some of the audience is going to be unhappy he has no new program? Of course he does, but he's got to do what he thinks gives him the best chance of winning. Do the sQuad know that a minute or two of nothing but skate-skate-jump is dull to watch and should lower the kind of PCS they should get? Sure but they know their PCS won't be massive anyway and they want a shot at winning. Just like the ladies know that backloading as many jumps as they can and adding tanos to everything can be a drag to watch, but they've got to do what they can to win. on another note: I kinda hope it doesn't become a common thing for fans to creep on Yuzu's departure flights? Arrivals, esp for major competitions, is kind of an inevitable thing and media will be there too but finding out departure flights and going to see him off...I kinda hope he doesn't get that a lot. It feels hypocritical to say because I do this for idols (find out/guess departure and arrival flights and go to the airport for photos) but for idols they expect it and it's almost part of their job (i've had managers and the idols themselves tell me their flight info before). Yuzu isn't an idol... idk it seems a bit intrusive given the context. I'm gonna give the girl the benefit of the doubt that maybe she just happened to be flying the same day and spotted him, but... I hope Yuzu gets some space

"17cm sounds like a lot but it's really just my hair isn't it?" If he didn't gain all 17cm extra he's only got like 3 more to go surely. He nearly jumped out of frame...